Heat soak starter Froggy's fix and consolidate all starter videos
 

Hi,

I'm going to briefly explain, copy links to all the videos & hope this helps you all & new members.

Light bulb went off last Saturday when I instructed in a 16 Camaro SS (v8) and the EXACT symptoms developed between runs. Cold engine starts perfect, hot starts slow crank with difficult to no start. This is NOT a 427 motor/starter problem alone. Calling it a "heat soak" starter is a misleading partly correct description.

What it is for those who want to jump right to the end, is the two large studs off the solenoid are copper alloy. Copper expands/contracts more than most other metals (google it - coefficient of expansion - metals). Cats run up to 1500 deg. f. The proximity and lack of heat shielding of the cat & studs causes them to lengthen/shorten each heat cycle. Over time the stud grows a mm or so longer such that WHEN HOT the torque on the nut holding the two ring connectors (alt & batt) is very low same with the other stud and connection between solenoid and starter. (mine on both when I finally dismantled was "hand tight"). So even cold, hand tight was enough torque contact to pass enough current to start her up, but hot it was only enough torque contact to slowly turn the starter & maybe or maybe not it would start. Loose electrical connections are not a good thing.

So the fix in my case could have been as simple as tighten the two nuts and add shields to the cat and starter, I ended up with a new starter but the old one is perfect. Having said all that, your problem may also be/include bad battery, bad cable to the fuse box or box to solenoid, bad/melted bits of the solenoid, or maybe other I have overlooked.

For all of you that had dealers or independents do the work and replace starters for $500 & up, of course the problem was fixed. The mechanic either never noticed the loose nuts or did and wanted to make more $$ on the job so replaced the perfectly good starter, think that never happens? Hah.

Here are all the videos in one place, like I said, hope this helps, that's why I go to the trouble of videos, it's a lot faster to just fix my cars and not "share" but I like to help.

To all the great guys who had various suggestions, THANK YOU, I need all those to puzzle things out and do a process of elimination.

One video near the end I titled it fixed, but I had only found one of the two loose nuts, so it was not 100% fixed. Also, for lack of a better solution to the lengthening of the studs, I added two plain high quality lock washers which (I hope) will expand a bit and keep the torque on the connection. Also the shields should help minimize the issue, thanks to DEI.

Be safe, have fun, Froggy out. Post questions if I can help any more. Took me about a month start to finish to puzzle this out. I have other stuff to do, and the car was cold starting ok, and I have another couple of vehicles, so I took my time. Oh, there was one night time flatbed tow involved, lucky not on the freeway.

Most of the videos have a preview thumbnail picture, but at the end it's just a link, so don't know why, me or the forum software, Anyway work thru it. Thanks. Well the links "turned into" thumbnails so the forum software is doing it. It's just slow. Anyway should be all there. Final test passed, this problem is solved. Be sure to watch the final short video.

Froggy, I am having the same issue with my 2007 base corvette. It has 91k miles. Would you recommend changing out the starter or do you think I could just do the heat wrap at this point?

Well you need to at least check the starter, mine had a loose terminal where battery power went, not bueno. Seems like a base car does not have the high compression turn over issue that the ls7 has. I bet the starters are the same. If it was good for 90k miles, and if you KNOW the battery is good, I'd do just the starter (and battery if needed) and not bother with all the insulation. It won't hurt but it's kinda expensive for the DEI stuff. You "could" make your own with the right material also.

I have my old starter that I could sell 8k miles on it, but the loose terminal needs a fix, I have not had it apart, might be easy/ or not.

:)

I have a feeling the magnets inside the starter get effected by heat. Over time they get weakened by the heat.

Thank you for the feedback. I have already picked up a starter and some dei wrap. I have not gotten to the repair at this point. The battery is only a year old and is an ac Delco replacement. The previous owner had it installed. I have had it tested and it appears to be good. good cold and under load. The alternator however we discovered was bad and was bad for several months. The previous owner used a trickle charger to maintain his battery. But he was thinking it was getting low due to it note being driven regular. I recently replaced the alternator and the charging system appears to be good. At this point I will probably just change the starter and see if that corrects the issue. 👍

A lot of times on these the plastic part where the lugs are gets damaged by the heat and creates problems with a loose lug that is what happened to mine. I would also agree with guy above that the heat can effect other areas of the starter making weak at times.

My car has just fried starter solenoid #4 since October. Done it with and without heat wrap. With and without gold foil wrap. Each time it has been the main lug in the solenoid becoming loose as the bakelite gets overheated.

I don't know what it is about these Kooks, but it just kills starters. The 08z that I had before this car had ARH headers on it and it never ate solenoids.

I've ordered a Powermaster as it doesn't have the bakelite cap on the back of the solenoid. I'm pretty sure that'll end the issue, but if not then I'll be going back to ARH.

LOve to here from you on this thread how it goes.

:)

Same situation for me, except only 2 starter solenoids over 1.5 years and I never used any heat wrap or foil wrap. I installed a Powermaster a little over 1 year ago and have been problem-free so far.

What model powermaster are you guys getting / have?

A 9509. Interesting that it doesn't have a ground lug. I guess it grounds through the block? I haven't opened it and looked at the documentation yet.

Are these clockable and do they fit without issue? Not sure if to go with this one or the MSD one. How is the powermaster in size compared to the original in car? I have ARH.

Yes it is clockable. Do not know if it fits without issue. Amazon just brought it to me 2 hours ago. I'll find out Saturday. For sure if you go with either MSD or Powermaster you will need to cut off the plug from the small green wire and solder/heatshrink on a ring connector.

(I think it's green)

I had previously ordered the MSD. Did not fit. Was hitting the sensor or the side of the block. I'm sure that I could have clocked or or something and made it fit. Didn't want to mess with it, sent it back to Amazon.

Edit - to clarify, the solenoid on the MSD didn't look any better than the GM. that's why I didn't mess with it.

Folks I changed out the starter tonight. Was a little challenging. Had to remove the exhaust manafold so the the starter would come out. Anyhoo. When I got the old starter out the top lug was loose. I also noticed there was no lock washer on it. It appeared to be an original piece to the vehicle. My new starter is a duralast from auto zone. About $112 after bringing back the core. The starter came with a lock nut on the top lug. Maybe they realized that was necessary for the heat soak issue. Everything went back together well. I took her off the stands and fired her up. Sounded strong. Shut her down and restarted her 2 and 3 time no issue. I took her out and got her hot �� shut her down let her set for 15 and 30 minutes and she fired up strong. I am satisfied with just the starter change out at this point. I did not put a wrap on the converter, however I may order one and wrap it to aid in heat prevention. The one I got from autozone was a good brand it was just more universal. I am keeping my fingers crossed, as how long this starter will last well that is unknown.

Actually you COULD just wrap the starter. DEI makes a custom wrap. See my video. Not too hard to put on.

Froggy

I have this one. Other than having to fab a starter solenoid connector and trimming the plastic fly wheel cover it’s held up well and once clocked you don’t have to loosen the header to install

:iagree:

Just to confirm what others have said about their Powermaster starters, mine is the Powermaster 9509 XS. It's clockable, you will need to cut the existing solenoid connector and crimp/solder on an eyelet connector, and possibly trim the plastic flywheel cover as baxsom and myself did.

I put my PowerMaster on this weekend. For what it is worth, here are my random thoughts.

I't's well built and the documentation that came with it is well thought and clear. Packaging was nice. There was no way the UPS guy was going to bust this thing up as well as it was padded in the box.

You do have to clock it slightly from the position it comes in out of the box. Not a lot, but to get it as far off the headers as possible and still not get up against the Crank Position Sensor it is worth the time and effort to clock it a little and find just that right spot.

Speaking of Crank Position Sensor, for the $23.39 it costs, this is THE time to do it when the header is down and the starter is out.

NO BAKELITE! :woohoo: The starter solenoid on the starter that came out had the loose terminal on the solenoid again.

Yes, you do have to cut the small wire and attach a ring terminal. Fear not. If you ever want to revert you can buy the correct plug and pigtail from RockAuto for $24 bucks. I bought one to put on the shelf in case I ever want to go back to a GM starter.

The two terminals on the starter are really close to each other. Really Really. Fortunately for me I didn't wait to put the headers back up and the car on the ground before touching the negative battery cable to the battery. As soon as I did the starter tried to engage. Turns out that the existing starter battery cable ring end is so fat it was touching the other smaller terminal They are quite close, did I mention that?. It's above the big one so you can't really see it. I grabbed a Dremel and shaved the outside of the ring down a little bit to fix the issue. It didn't take a whole lot of shaving. I'm glad I tested it before I had it on the ground where the car could have driven itself through the wall of my garage.

Once clocked and installed it's quite a compact unit and the wires were able to be routed away from the header. They have more air space than they had with the GM starter.

I did not put a heat blanket on, though I have a new DEI blanket on hand. I'm thinking that with more air space it should cool easier. A heat blanket might help keep it cooler long, is also going to hold heat in longer. A metal shield might be the way to go if I end up needing it.

Started the car, drive it for about 30 minutes to get up to temp. It was 91 F ambient so it didn't take long. I shut it off and let it sit with the hood closed for 10 minutes, which is about the time it takes for a gas stop. Started right up, which is something that wouldn't have happened with the GM starter. I would have had to have the car sit with the hood open for a spell waiting for it to cool down before the starter would laboriously crank over.

I think that this might have been the answer. I'll give it a week or so and see where we are.

@froggy47 If this is hijacking your thread let me know and I'll move it.

Not at all, my threads are for everyone to learn, not to showcase my skills (or lack of). haha

Thanks for the detailing this problem.Always like to know the exact cause, I've had it since 1962 with my Vette. I recall a couple times getting stuck somewhere I would pull the dipstick and use it to go across the starter terminals. But soon after that I started shielding the solenoid and haven't had a problem since. When I put the Kooks headers in my Z06 I put DEI wrap on them next to the starter area and also installed a homemade heat shield.