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-   -   TVS 2650R Questions (https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/4210322-tvs-2650r-questions.html)

Shinobi'sZ 11-08-2018 01:11 PM

TVS 2650R Questions
 
Looking for more info from owners or tuners who have experience with this setup. What are the potential gains? How much additional work or modifications are needed to install the unit on a Z06, etc..
Thanks

HessViper 11-08-2018 01:23 PM

Give Crawford Racing a call, Chris does not seem to frequent the forum often enough to answer before others, who will only speculate, will answer.

According to reputable sources, he is lightyears ahead and about to release a complete package that works. He is busy making real progress at all times, so we try to avoid bothering him, but he is a very polite and knowledgeable person.

BooSSted 11-08-2018 06:52 PM

The maggy design doesnt allow room for port injection, so you'll be fuel limited with that set up. 800-850whp meth dependent.
Better options if thats your end game power wise.

atljar 11-08-2018 07:00 PM


Originally Posted by BooSSted (Post 1598304016)
The maggy design doesnt allow room for port injection, so you'll be fuel limited with that set up. 800-850whp meth dependent.
Better options if thats your end game power wise.

Total heresy? I've yet to See anything other than speculation about lacking ability for port. Source?

BooSSted 11-08-2018 07:48 PM

Seen a few comments on it from SHOPS in attendance. Hopefully it isn't true, for the folks sakes who've been waiting years.

Competition.Carbon 11-08-2018 08:33 PM

I’ll update if Chris Crawford has any news. I’m in communication with him closely. LT5 2650 should be in his possession this or next week. He has all of the other nessesry parts worked out. Combo with his port injection fuel kit, this thing can actually get that magical 1000-1300whp without doing a low fuel side kit.

Looking to bolt the kit up to a 416 for my own car. I want 1000whp on E85 and best number on pump 91 reliably.

Oh yeah, boost by gear and rpm for the win! Electronic bypass valve and throttle body are keys to handle this kind of power in the low rev!

Khoa

3 Z06ZR1 11-08-2018 11:58 PM


Originally Posted by Shinobi'sZ (Post 1598301783)
Looking for more info from owners or tuners who have experience with this setup. What are the potential gains? How much additional work or modifications are needed to install the unit on a Z06, etc..
Thanks

All good once it hits the market sometime after MARCH! I was looking at using it about a year ago rumors of soon release were heard . I emailed Tim Clifton sales at Magnuson.
He said to use the 2300. I do think it is closer to release but people need to know it a huge power adder which will need a lot of supporting mods to do anymore than what the 2300 does. But it is the real thing for going to big hp. So I say gauge your budget or your willing ness to chase more hp.
Sometimes less expense is more value.

Earl H 11-09-2018 01:48 PM


Originally Posted by 3 Z06ZR1 (Post 1598305447)
All good once it hits the market sometime after MARCH! I was looking at using it about a year ago rumors of soon release were heard . I emailed Tim Clifton sales at Magnuson.
He said to use the 2300. I do think it is closer to release but people need to know it a huge power adder which will need a lot of supporting mods to do anymore than what the 2300 does. But it is the real thing for going to big hp. So I say gauge your budget or your willing ness to chase more hp.
Sometimes less expense is more value.

Thread topic is clear! Lets keep it on track.

3 Z06ZR1 11-09-2018 02:43 PM


Originally Posted by Earl H (Post 1598308224)
Thread topic is clear! Lets keep it on track.

All good when it comes out in march right on topic! Sorta hard to answer about what is not out yet, No one has one yet!
I might also consider one when it comes out.

BooSSted 11-09-2018 03:56 PM


Originally Posted by Competition.Carbon (Post 1598304606)
I’ll update if Chris Crawford has any news. I’m in communication with him closely. LT5 2650 should be in his possession this or next week. He has all of the other nessesry parts worked out. Combo with his port injection fuel kit, this thing can actually get that magical 1000-1300whp without doing a low fuel side kit.

Looking to bolt the kit up to a 416 for my own car. I want 1000whp on E85 and best number on pump 91 reliably.

Oh yeah, boost by gear and rpm for the win! Electronic bypass valve and throttle body are keys to handle this kind of power in the low rev!

Khoa

Crawford was one of the individuals stating there was no room for port injection. "Terrible manifold design..." "...No provisions for port injection..." "...way too low of manifold will never reach potential of rotor pack"

fleming23 11-09-2018 04:01 PM

There had to be some compromise to get this thing to fit under the low hood. Another consideration no one seems to be making is the super low blower lid above the intercooler bricks. While the bricks are enormous, there is very little room for airflow to reach the rear of the lid. This won't matter for some, but could be a big issue for others.

HessViper 11-09-2018 06:33 PM


Originally Posted by fleming23 (Post 1598309003)
There had to be some compromise to get this thing to fit under the low hood. Another consideration no one seems to be making is the super low blower lid above the intercooler bricks. While the bricks are enormous, there is very little room for airflow to reach the rear of the lid. This won't matter for some, but could be a big issue for others.

Agreed.

Competition.Carbon 11-09-2018 06:40 PM


Originally Posted by BooSSted (Post 1598308974)
Crawford was one of the individuals stating there was no room for port injection. "Terrible manifold design..." "...No provisions for port injection..." "...way too low of manifold will never reach potential of rotor pack"

on a Magnuson housing unit.

All Edelbrock and Magnuson and LT5 blowers are based with TSV 2650 cores

rflow306 11-09-2018 07:48 PM


Originally Posted by Competition.Carbon (Post 1598309856)

on a Magnuson housing unit.

All Edelbrock and Magnuson and LT5 blowers are based with TSV 2650 cores

Yes the magnuson housing. Hopefully they will post some horsepower numbers shortly.

Crawford-Racing.com 11-11-2018 01:41 PM

Sorry guys, been pretty crazy once we got back from SEMA getting things caught back up this week. Didn't have much time for the forum. Anybody needing to reach me can do it direct at chris@crawford-racing.com or give me a call at (919) 454-3178 and I will answer any questions.
Unfortunately the current Maggie 2650 being flashed around does not have port injector provisions, and will really limit it's capabilities. Along with it's low profile manifold design. Yes it does fit under the stock hood, but that is a huge compromise in design and performance for that. Now there is a market for the C7 guys that don't want to mess with changing the hood and only want a better blower then the stock 1.7. You will still be met with the fuel system limitations, not ideal manifold port distribution and marginal intercooling. Again if your goal is to have a blower that fits under the stock hood and is strung out on a meth crutch, then that's fine too.
One important thing everyone should ask themselves is, why would GM spend MILLIONS of dollars in design, development and tooling for body panels and the big supercharger for the LT5 ZR1, if they could just stuff the bigger 2650 rotor pack in a low profile housing and keep the same ZO6 hood? If it didn't meet their relatively small goal of 755 crank horsepower of doing such, why would anyone think that the Maggie 2650 is going to be the saving grace?
As some have mentioned, I have jumped headfirst into the LT5 2650 supercharger since it was first talked about. Some companies have seen the internal electronic bypass valve as a major hurdle, I have embraced it. We designed and built an interface (similar to our LT throttle body interface) that will allow our port injection controller's to utilize and control that bypass valve. That allows us to have precise boost control from the roots blower, we are able to limit the boost in the lower gears and as traction is limited. It still functions as intended at idle and cruise, bypassing the boost created by the compressor when it is not needed.
We gain even more control when it is combined with our spark control kit as well. Obviously we are very excited about the integrated port injection, and works perfectly with the rest of our controller kits.
The C7 ZO6 LT5 2650 kits are done, we are still finalizing fitments on the CTS-V's and ZL1's. These blowers will bolt right on to any LT4 head. The existing HPFP and DI injectors are retained. A low pressure fuel pump upgrade will be needed for 1000+ RWHP combos on E85, just as with any power adder on these platforms.
We have a variety of upper and lower pulley combinations ready to go as well. Boost levels of 20+ psi.
This is a clean sheet design of a supercharger, with not much in the lines of compromises. The potential of this thing is quite impressive.

chuntington101 11-11-2018 02:59 PM

I think with the likes of Kwong and Crawford working on it the LT5 supercharger is going to be a great performer. Will be interesting to see how the Edelbrock unit will do and what Whipple can do with the Gen 5 blower. Interesting times for the aftermarket world for the LT engines!

Crawford, what sort of control is the electronic bypass going to give? Will it literally be 100% boost control? Is this going to tie into things like traction control as well? Maybe e% as well? Sounds really interesting similar to what OEMs are doing with the turbo engines as well!

Earl H 11-11-2018 03:02 PM


Originally Posted by Crawford-Racing.com (Post 1598317874)
Sorry guys, been pretty crazy once we got back from SEMA getting things caught back up this week. Didn't have much time for the forum. Anybody needing to reach me can do it direct at chris@crawford-racing.com or give me a call at (919) 454-3178 and I will answer any questions.
Unfortunately the current Maggie 2650 being flashed around does not have port injector provisions, and will really limit it's capabilities. Along with it's low profile manifold design. Yes it does fit under the stock hood, but that is a huge compromise in design and performance for that. Now there is a market for the C7 guys that don't want to mess with changing the hood and only want a better blower then the stock 1.7. You will still be met with the fuel system limitations, not ideal manifold port distribution and marginal intercooling. Again if your goal is to have a blower that fits under the stock hood and is strung out on a meth crutch, then that's fine too.
One important thing everyone should ask themselves is, why would GM spend MILLIONS of dollars in design, development and tooling for body panels and the big supercharger for the LT5 ZR1, if they could just stuff the bigger 2650 rotor pack in a low profile housing and keep the same ZO6 hood? If it didn't meet their relatively small goal of 755 crank horsepower of doing such, why would anyone think that the Maggie 2650 is going to be the saving grace?
As some have mentioned, I have jumped headfirst into the LT5 2650 supercharger since it was first talked about. Some companies have seen the internal electronic bypass valve as a major hurdle, I have embraced it. We designed and built an interface (similar to our LT throttle body interface) that will allow our port injection controller's to utilize and control that bypass valve. That allows us to have precise boost control from the roots blower, we are able to limit the boost in the lower gears and as traction is limited. It still functions as intended at idle and cruise, bypassing the boost created by the compressor when it is not needed.
We gain even more control when it is combined with our spark control kit as well. Obviously we are very excited about the integrated port injection, and works perfectly with the rest of our controller kits.
The C7 ZO6 LT5 2650 kits are done, we are still finalizing fitments on the CTS-V's and ZL1's. These blowers will bolt right on to any LT4 head. The existing HPFP and DI injectors are retained. A low pressure fuel pump upgrade will be needed for 1000+ RWHP combos on E85, just as with any power adder on these platforms.
We have a variety of upper and lower pulley combinations ready to go as well. Boost levels of 20+ psi.
This is a clean sheet design of a supercharger, with not much in the lines of compromises. The potential of this thing is quite impressive.

Great insights Chris!

chuntington101 11-11-2018 03:04 PM


Originally Posted by Earl H (Post 1598318214)
Great insights Chris!

its great to see this forward thinking in the aftermarket world! And also the info to back it up as well! :)

Earl H 11-11-2018 03:27 PM


Originally Posted by chuntington101 (Post 1598318222)


its great to see this forward thinking in the aftermarket world! And also the info to back it up as well! :)

The guy continues to impress! He has helped me (indirectly) a great deal along in trying to get the most out of my single turbo C7 Z06 build. I look forward to seeing what he can do with the LT5 blower on the various applications that can make use of it.

chuntington101 11-12-2018 03:39 AM


Originally Posted by Earl H (Post 1598318333)
The guy continues to impress! He has helped me (indirectly) a great deal along in trying to get the most out of my single turbo C7 Z06 build. I look forward to seeing what he can do with the LT5 blower on the various applications that can make use of it.

hmmm maybe if the bypass valve is big enough you could use the lt5 blower and feed it with the turbo?!? ;)

Earl H 11-12-2018 05:09 AM


Originally Posted by chuntington101 (Post 1598320726)


hmmm maybe if the bypass valve is big enough you could use the lt5 blower and feed it with the turbo?!? ;)

Fun thought. Compound boost setups never seem to perform in real life as well as they do at the dyno. My current setup is making over 4 digits and is running 151+ trap speeds in early shake down passes. Its undergoing some changes at the moment to "simplify" things and improve performance in certain areas (e.g. short times, higher boost, times to match the power, etc.). I am very intrigued by the 2650 rotor pack performance because I just like to see us Vette guys with as many options as possible. The Gen 2 V guys have shown what a well sorted PD blower can do (e.g. full weight boost only bottom to mid 9 sec 1/4's) with some hard work and dedication...and its only a 1.9L. The 2,650 is capable of so much more. Time will tell if shops can get it to perform in the real world like it should on paper.

chuntington101 11-12-2018 07:57 AM

I was only joking with the compound setup! Better like you say to get your setup working as intended rather than making things more complex. Also n2o is probably a better / simpler / easy option to supper fast spool. Be interesting to see your changes though!

totally agree with you on more options being better. Why wouldn’t you want more choice?

HessViper 11-12-2018 01:22 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb and say...

this kit Chris is about to release, will be the straw that breaks the camels back, with GM deciding to allow the tune on the zr1 to be cracked.

Otherwise, GM is going to be in a world of hurt, when people who want the fastest vette, see the logic in buying a z06 and spending 25 grand, including the cooling, and having a 1000whp 1000wheel torque, McLaren, bugatti, lambo, Porsche, and zr1 killer.

A simple oil cooling kit and aftermarket zr1 like nose from competition carbon, etc, will be icing on the cake.

This will cause people to walk away from ZR1 orders, and pick up a new or used z06 instead, while obtaining better interest rates, lower insurance rates, and also much larger discounts from msrp, and still saving a tremendous amount of money over the zr1.

Mark my words, zr1's will be cracked within a month of this product launching, and GM will stop interfering with zr1 through onstar to lock them up, once they have been cracked into. They will start letting it slide.

Crawford-Racing.com 11-12-2018 01:52 PM


Originally Posted by chuntington101 (Post 1598318204)
I think with the likes of Kwong and Crawford working on it the LT5 supercharger is going to be a great performer. Will be interesting to see how the Edelbrock unit will do and what Whipple can do with the Gen 5 blower. Interesting times for the aftermarket world for the LT engines!

Crawford, what sort of control is the electronic bypass going to give? Will it literally be 100% boost control? Is this going to tie into things like traction control as well? Maybe e% as well? Sounds really interesting similar to what OEMs are doing with the turbo engines as well!

Yes, my controllers will allow a boost control curve based on various types of inputs and strategies. It can also be combined with my existing traction control system that uses the stock ABS sensors (does not interfere with ABS function) and uses the stock coils for full spark control. The electronic bypass valve gives the same precise control that the electronic turbo control systems are using. Much more control versus the older vacuum type bypass valves offered.

atljar 11-12-2018 02:43 PM

Supposedly the Maggy 2650 fits under the Stingray hood. I wonder if the Z06 hoods are tall enough to accommodate a supercharger manifold spacer that would allow for port. Im still dumbfounded that this is even an issue. Who would buy a 2650 without ability to run port?

2highpsi 11-18-2018 12:37 AM

The Maggie does fit under a Stingray hood, a stingray hood was on the Z06 in the Magnuson SEMA booth.
While port injection was indeed considered for the TVS2650R on LT engines (it will be available for other LT platforms) the trade-off of intercooler effectiveness was deemed to be of more importance on the C7 platform with several new high power DI fuel options recently released (or pending release shortly).
Port is possible, but not with maintaining the large intercooler size and a stock hood.

2highpsi 11-18-2018 12:44 AM


Originally Posted by HessViper (Post 1598322864)
I'm going to go out on a limb and say...

this kit Chris is about to release, will be the straw that breaks the camels back, with GM deciding to allow the tune on the zr1 to be cracked.

Otherwise, GM is going to be in a world of hurt, when people who want the fastest vette, see the logic in buying a z06 and spending 25 grand, including the cooling, and having a 1000whp 1000wheel torque, McLaren, bugatti, lambo, Porsche, and zr1 killer.

A simple oil cooling kit and aftermarket zr1 like nose from competition carbon, etc, will be icing on the cake.

This will cause people to walk away from ZR1 orders, and pick up a new or used z06 instead, while obtaining better interest rates, lower insurance rates, and also much larger discounts from msrp, and still saving a tremendous amount of money over the zr1.

Mark my words, zr1's will be cracked within a month of this product launching, and GM will stop interfering with zr1 through onstar to lock them up, once they have been cracked into. They will start letting it slide.

Locking the GM ECUs has nothing to do with trying to prevent people from modifying their cars, hell they probably have the biggest interest in the performance aftermarket of any manufacturer.
It's completely about Cyber Security - and preventing the car from being compromised by an undesirable source.
Hopefully they will find a means to manage the cyber security side while allowing us owners to modify as desired, but for now I'll just stick with vehicles that have the older ECU :)

Mikec7z 11-18-2018 03:41 AM


Originally Posted by 2highpsi (Post 1598354113)
Locking the GM ECUs has nothing to do with trying to prevent people from modifying their cars, hell they probably have the biggest interest in the performance aftermarket of any manufacturer.
It's completely about Cyber Security - and preventing the car from being compromised by an undesirable source.
Hopefully they will find a means to manage the cyber security side while allowing us owners to modify as desired, but for now I'll just stick with vehicles that have the older ECU :)

?

i will second that hess is likely correct. Time will tell... after all, hess put a limit of 1 month after crawfords release as a time limit.

Mr. Gizmo 11-18-2018 07:30 AM


Originally Posted by Shinobi'sZ (Post 1598301783)
Looking for more info from owners or tuners who have experience with this setup. What are the potential gains? How much additional work or modifications are needed to install the unit on a Z06, etc..
Thanks

i don’t have experience but thinking about a magnuson for my car. The fuel pumps could be your Achilles heel for what your considering. See this thread from a Calloway owner. Especially if your car is pre 2019.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...t-158-mph.html

saleen556 11-18-2018 10:06 AM


Originally Posted by 2highpsi (Post 1598354113)
Locking the GM ECUs has nothing to do with trying to prevent people from modifying their cars, hell they probably have the biggest interest in the performance aftermarket of any manufacturer.
It's completely about Cyber Security - and preventing the car from being compromised by an undesirable source.
Hopefully they will find a means to manage the cyber security side while allowing us owners to modify as desired, but for now I'll just stick with vehicles that have the older ECU :)

I disagree. They don’t want people tuning the cars and causing mechanical issues. Then trying to hide them and have GM cover under warranty. An obvious form of fraud that’s been going on for years. Many admit to having a second ECM to put in just to take car in for warranty work 🙄

Mikec7z 11-18-2018 04:39 PM


Originally Posted by saleen556 (Post 1598355052)


I disagree. They don’t want people tuning the cars and causing mechanical issues. Then trying to hide them and have GM cover under warranty. An obvious form of fraud that’s been going on for years. Many admit to having a second ECM to put in just to take car in for warranty work ��

ironically, by locking people out of the ecm/ecu/cpu, whatever you want to call it... then it FORCES people to do mods to their cars that are intent on staying undetected by the cars computer (or else it would throw codes and put the car into limp mode)

When someone tunes the car, the warranty is gone. GM loves when people tune their cars, as GM is off the hook for having to pay any further bills on that car, and it also increases the odds that the cars are going to break, and people have to buy more parts or have their cars put back to stock by GM service centers who know what they are doing.

By keeping the computer locked, and not letting anyone in, people are just going to create cheated sensors, and the stock ECU/ECM/CPU is going to have no EVIDENCE the car was ever modded.

Now cars will be making MORE power and GM still has to pay the bill for warranty work as GM can't detect which cars have been modified if the customer takes the mods back off and puts back on the non-cheated stock sensors.

Point being, while you disagree with him, i disagree with you. GM loves when you void your warranty. Make no mistake.

3 Z06ZR1 11-18-2018 04:56 PM


Originally Posted by Mikec7z (Post 1598356784)
ironically, by locking people out of the ecm/ecu/cpu, whatever you want to call it... then it FORCES people to do mods to the cars that are intended in staying undetected by the car.

When someone tunes the car, the warranty is gone. GM loves when people tune their cars, as GM is off the hook for having to pay any further bills on that car, and it also increases the odds that the cars are going to break, and people have to buy more parts or have their cars put back to stock by GM service centers who know what they are doing.

By keeping the computer locked, and not letting anyone in, people are just going to create cheated sensors, and the stock ECU/ECM/CPU is going to have no EVIDENCE the car was ever modded.

Now cars will be making MORE power and GM still has to pay the bill for warranty work as GM can't detect which cars have been modified if the customer takes the mods back off and puts back on the non-cheated stock sensors.

How does the cheating sensors work again? You were working on adjusting COT thorough the O2 sensor?? Seems an answer was out of your reach?
Tuning the car is a great tool you add the mods which then the engine needs the correct tuning correct timing and AFR etc. . Not everyone wants to run around with stock restrictions in place such as the restrictive stock filter and stock exhaust
manifolds. Just why I will not be buying a C7ZR1 over a Z06 which is tunable.

3 Z06ZR1 11-18-2018 05:03 PM


Originally Posted by saleen556 (Post 1598355052)


I disagree. They don’t want people tuning the cars and causing mechanical issues. Then trying to hide them and have GM cover under warranty. An obvious form of fraud that’s been going on for years. Many admit to having a second ECM to put in just to take car in for warranty work 🙄

Exactly! Also why the ZR1 is not tunable plus they have other new systems to protect. Real guys with mods put on them on get the professional tune and call it a day the car is mine I break it I fix it. . GM has seen everything and know how to handle false fraud claims.

Mikec7z 11-18-2018 08:51 PM

the map and maf can both be cheated. One can avoid a lot of problems by keeping those sensors from reporting values above preset limits. Such cheated sensors are prevalent in the BMW and Hellcat/demon world. p0106 could be avoided with a cheated map sensor. Food for thought.

Yes i was exploring also tricking the car out of COT with a stock tune... but as you point out, that was a dead end.

A lot more than we can say for any of your posts. I can replace you with a parrot or a dell computer... memorize and repeat. When was the last time you experimented or invented or solved anything that no one else has before you?

You think the tooth fairy just drops off the good ideas, and no humans with a high enough IQ have to figure them out first? You think everyone on this planet just reads and repeats and claims that makes them intelligent?

Someone has to hit dead ends when looking for the next unnoticed unlocked door.

3 Z06ZR1 11-18-2018 10:54 PM


Originally Posted by Mikec7z (Post 1598358052)
the map and maf can both be cheated. One can avoid a lot of problems by keeping those sensors from reporting values above preset limits. Such cheated sensors are prevalent in the BMW and Hellcat/demon world. p0106 could be avoided with a cheated map sensor. Food for thought.

Yes i was exploring also tricking the car out of COT with a stock tune... but as you point out, that was a dead end.

A lot more than we can say for any of your posts. I can replace you with a parrot or a dell computer... memorize and repeat. When was the last time you experimented or invented or solved anything that no one else has before you?

You think the tooth fairy just drops off the good ideas, and no humans with a high enough IQ have to figure them out first? You think everyone on this planet just reads and repeats and claims that makes them intelligent?

Someone has to hit dead ends when looking for the next unnoticed unlocked door.


Feel free to leave me out of our your comments!

Mikec7z 11-19-2018 04:40 AM


Originally Posted by 3 Z06ZR1 (Post 1598358640)
Feel free to leave me out of our your comments!

my comments don't include you until you show up and counter everything I say, and throw your little jabs. Then when I counter you like you counter me, you aren't used to that apparently, and you make a big deal out of it every time it seems.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...90f5f9ed0c.png

chuntington101 11-19-2018 11:36 PM

Can we keep THIS thread on topic please?!?!? Don’t want this one being closed down due to people bickering!


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