Value and VIN
 

A friend of mine has a C1 Corvette he purchased from an estate sale 3 years ago. The VIN on the title is screwed up, meaning it isn't a Corvette VIN but it has the right year and car in the title description. He hasn't been to the DMV yet to transfer title to his name, which could get sticky because it hasn't been registered in years and there is no VIN tag with the car. He may end up with a reassigned VIN tag sticker from the state in order to properly register it rather than an actual Corvette VIN plate I suppose. I'm going to crawl under it to see if I can read the VIN on the frame, but I already know it won't match the title.

He wants to make a restomod out of it with an aftermarket frame and an LS drivetrain, and he has the funds to do whatever he wants. My question is, should he look for a car with the correct title and a Corvette VIN tag or go ahead and do whatever it takes to title what he has and drop six figures into it? If it were me I would want a clean title car to start with. He's less concerned. My concern would be the ability to sell it at one of the auctions because they take title issues very seriously, and I would be concerned that there would be a major hit on the value.



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What would you recommend? He likes the car, and it has great bones to start the project.

I would check the frame VIN before I decided what to do with that car. Unless the frame is really rusty, you should be able to read it using a mirror and flashlight (after a little cleaning of the right spot).... I've even photographed frame VINs with this approach.

What year is it, and what does "screwed up" mean?

Be careful when you find out the real vin#. If you tell the DMV and it comes back as stolen, duplicated, or something he risks losing the car. Many of these old cars have dubious pasts. :willy:

Good chance someone is missing that C1. No one swaps VIN's for shits and giggles. Got involved with a situation like that with a 67 435hp car. Had a Nova vin tag. Long story short, car was stolen 20 years ago and sat in basement of guy who had possession. FBI got involved, ugly.

To my knowledge, In CA, making a restomod has its own perils, it very well may get title with the year of build, or the engine year of manufacture if there is no VIN tag and screwed up title..
Emissions will also come into play.

All said and done, if you don't know the car is legit, i would build it first, get rid of the original frame and take it from there to get a CA assigned VIN, which he will get anyway. Tale plenty of pics during teh build, it makes it easier to get a VIN assigned. CA willw anta ll teh receipts so they know how much to screw him over on when he registers it.
Doug

Why not just return the car to the executor of the estate and start over?

Is he in California? If so, he's gonna get hit with penalties for not registering this sooner.

My take is that he will likely end up with a state-applied VIN. I don't think that matters so much on a resto-mod, as long as the car continues to be registered as an old car. It's only a problem in my mind if it gets registered as an SPCNS 2018, due to the various safety and smog issues that states usually ignore on older cars.

If I were him, I'd try to register it now, and only after getting it successfully registered as a real car would I then start the resto-mod work.


I'd think the estate has probably been probated or otherwise closed by now.

This is a very good point. In CA, it has become very difficult to register a new build as an 'old' car without proper documentation (factory VIN number installed). There is a chance that the car could be built as a resto-mod with aftermarket everything except the body, and would have to be titled as a 2018 or 2019 model (completion date of build) and therefore, have to comply with emissions regulations for a late-model vehicle. Much safer in the long run to start with a car with an intact original VIN, even in bad shape. No emissions hassles and no hassles at time of resale, either. It will still be titled as the same car is was when new, decades ago.

Seek the advice of an attorney.

If I'm reading your post correctly, the title has a vin number but the car does not have a vin plate on it to match title. If you had a vin plate to put on car which matched the title, no problem. So, you know what to do, right.

DO NOT involve the DMV until YOU have your ducks in a row.
Start by finding the hidden V.I.N. on the car. With this info CALL state law enforcement and tell them that you are looking at purchasing a car that has no title and ask them to see if they have any record of the car ever being stolen. If you get an all clear on that then contact the people that make reproduction V.I.N. tags and see what their policy is for creating a new tag with the info they require. Once you have the new tag installed take your paperwork to a DMV office (AZ is a bordering state for the OP and does not have all of the penalties for not being register for so long) get a title in your name and then you can transfer it to you home state if you like.

This looks like advice from a car salesman, not an attorney.

If you'll answer my earlier questions, we can work on it. What year, and how is the Vin on the title "screwed up"?

Indeed it is.

I spent most of my life in the car business and have seen every title/V.I.N. problem there is to see.

If you don't know what the situation is with the car you first have to determine if it is indeed yours.

Then unless you want to suffer the financial hit you will take on the car if you let the state issue a V.I.N. for the car I suggest you follow my suggestions.

The sale was made while under the supervision of the probate court - bad VIN =s bad sale; void it and get out of this $$$$ pit now.

I don't doubt ANY silly law that someone says CA has, but how can this be a problem? For example, what if you were a baller with a fancy mansion, and the car sat in the huge living room as a conversation piece for many years? How can the state penalize you for not getting tags when it's not even on the road? :crazy2:

QUOTE FROM THE 1ST POST
" The VIN on the title is screwed up, meaning it isn't a Corvette VIN but it has the right year and car in the title description." AND there is no VIN tag with the car.

I would say that the title is screwed up but generally not to the DMV unless it doesn't match the V.I.N. tag. Most of the people at DMV offices are pretty clueless about these things unless there is a red flag. They don't check to see what an old Corvette V.I.N. should be unless there are other questions. So, with this car not having a V.I.N. plate they are definitely going to have a problem with this car. Before you go to the DMV you better have a V.I.N. tag on the car to match the title unless you want to end up with a state issued V.I.N. and that will be after more BS which could include a bonded title and a long waiting period. This is at best because if they determine the car was stolen and still has a cloud of ownership the current owner is going to lose the car.

The car will require a new title from one of the states that offers this service first, then a new tag and all of this only if the car has never been reported stolen in which case I would want nothing to do with the car. The current owner should have check that before he bought a car without a V.I.N. tag.

Regarding another post here about "getting a fake V.I.N. plate, It would not be a fake but rather an original type REPLACEMENT tag. The people that make them are scrutinized by federal law and will require the correct paper work from the state it is going to be issued in.

I'll try one more time a different way. Is the C1 of the years that has the Vin plate welded to the column, or screwed to the door post. In what way is it not a Corvette Vin? Is it a Ford Vin? Is it a Chevy passenger Vin? Is it a state issued Vin from any valid source? Is it a scramble of numbers? Maybe it's a Corvette Vin and it just looks odd because of the year. If you want to know if there's an easy way to register, those answers would make a difference.
Just tell me the year and give me some inkling of what the Vin number on the title looks like. You're getting a lot of doomsday advice when it may be legal after all.

First of all, (from the OP) it doesn't have a V.I.N. plate. There is no way this car is legal as it sits. By federal law it is illegal to be in possession of a vehicle without a V.I.N. tag attached. Junk yards are SUPPOSED to by law mail the titles to crushed cars back to the state as destroyed.
My GUESS would be that this car has a V.I.N. on the title of a same make and year passenger car as was a common practice with older stolen cars along with the V.I.N. plate and they often escaped detection by DMV offices.
If this car was bought through Probate court this just goes to show how much these government officials DON'T know or don't pay attention to in these cases.

I read the post I know what it says. Your "GUESS" is no better than anybody elses. He may think it doesn't have a VIN plate but if there's a plate anywhere mounted on the car by the state that matches the title, it might could be worked out.We'll never know with no more information than he's given so far. Not all issues with titles and VIN numbers are stolen cars. It bears further investigation.

Vin
 

That "rightful owner" may be the person it was stolen from. Or it might be the insurance company who paid the claim.

Maybe it isn't stolen at all, maybe it is. But as several have posted, we need more information to be able to help.

OK. I'm going to speak in a hypotheticals. ;)

What if the VIN on the title is a 1963 Corvette VIN that starts with a 3.

What if the title indicates it's a 1962 year model convertible.

What if the car itself is a 1962 Corvette.

What if the steering column has no evidence of any spot welds near the master cylinder area under the hood where a 1962 VIN tag would go.

What if there is no VIN tag anywhere.

What if we haven't read the VIN on the frame yet, but we can assume it certainly won't start with a 3 because it's a C1 frame.

There you have it.

The first and second "What if" has me baffled.

Almost sounds like there is a title, and there is a car, but there isn't a title to the car. Someone may or may not have the 1963 VIN titled to a car elsewhere. And someone may or may not have the missing VIN tag titled to a car elsewhere based on the frame VIN.

I'm in on this hypothetical:trainwreck:

That's a big change from "not having a Corvette Vin". You could probably convince them it was a typo if the rest of the Vin matches. Since you don't have a Vin plate, that won't be an easy task. I have a C1 with no Vin issues, but I cannot find a Vin on the frame and I've tried pretty hard. Did this estate have more than one Corvette for sale? Say, hypothetically a 1963? If he ever works it out, he'll most likely end up with a state issued Vin, and that's a big IF. It's going to take legal help I'm afraid.

Does the Vin derivative on the block match the title, or is that missing also?

If somewhere there is a '62 Vette with a '62 title but a '63 VIN and no sign of a tag or a tag weld, it's not hypothetical to say something is seriously wrong. But you knew that before you started the thread.

IMHO: Your friend came by the car legally regardless of its previous history. He's going to make a restomod out of it. So I see three choices. First, open Pandora's box by getting into the whole mess with DMV, trying to find out if it was stolen back in 1972 or whenever, and trying to track down somebody who may make a claim on the car. And quite possibly lose the car in the process. It's the "right" thing to do, some would say.

Or - since he's going restomod anyway, having a correct Corvette VIN might not be that important and getting a new VIN would erase its shady past and establish him as the proper owner. OTOH as some have said it may trigger emissions or safety issues depending on WHAT state's laws are involved.

A third option would be to part out the car and use the money to buy a car with a clean title.

I'm not recommending any one over the rest, and I honestly don't know what I would do if it was my problem to solve.

And that my friends is advice from an attorney! Fraud is seven years from discovery, back the sale up legally and build a car you can own with no fear of having it taken from you.

Back in Montana, in the '60'- early '70s, titles didn't say "Corvette" on them, they said "Chevrolet, 2Dr", whether it was Corvette or Biscayne two door. The VINs were obviously different from the prefix on. Later on, they added the model to the title description based on what the car was/looked like. That sounds like what the title on the car in question has for a title, a title from another Chev of the same year unless the digit discrepancy is in the prefix so it isn't '867", but something else that would indicate different model..
Doug.

If you are going to park the car, you pay $5 for a "Planned Non Operation" (PNO) registration and the DMV is happy. But you can only do that before the fact. When this guy goes in and says, "I've had this car for three years and would like to register it now" the DMV will say, "No problem, jump through these hoops and pay the back registration for each year plus a hefty penalty." When the owner says, "But I didn't drive it" the DMV will say, "But you didn't get the PNO up front, so pay up." California does require that you register a newly acquired vehicle pretty quickly--I think it's 10 or 20 days from the date of purchase.

As for the OP, this new info is troubling. I don't have an easy answer to that. It's not something I would care to deal with.

I'm trying to be measured in my discussion of this because it's not my car and I don't want to send up a red flag on an internet forum. I apologize if anyone thought I was intentionally misleading or being too vague.

He asked me to do the restoration which was already started by someone else who became ill. I put the brakes on the whole thing by asking basic questions first like "Let me see the title" and "Where's the VIN tag" when I didn't see it on the steering column near the master cylinder. I'm not new to this. And I know better than to proceed on anything before clearing title issues. And that's where I am right now. He has a title, and he has a car. And like I said, the two don't connect. The sad part is (and I haven't been able to confirm this) he claims he paid $50,000 for the car at the estate sale. Even before his friend, who was going to restore/restomod it, took it apart it wasn't worth near that. As far as the VIN on the engine pad goes, it's got an NOM so no help there.

The title to this thread isn't misleading. My concern is after spending hundreds of thousands making a restomod out of a car with a potential reassigned VIN is the value of a restod C1 as negatively effected as an original C1 restored with a reassigned VIN. Me personally? I would walk away from any potential purchase of a C1/C2 with a reassigned VIN.


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Hi Roy.

I sent you an email. Let me know what you think.

Randy

In an attempt to answer the OPs original question I would say it depends on what the laws are in the state you plan to register this car if you don't follow the advise I have already given. Regardless of where you register the car in MOST cases you will need a title. I say MOST cases because some states use registration only for older cars. These states have title companies that specialize in creating registrations in their state for cars without titles so that the registration can then be used to be turned into a title when you then want to register the car in a title state. I go through all of this to explain that If you have a title for the car and you decide you want to restomod it, and by this I mean to the point that you replace the frame with one of the new aftermarket ones, then the rest of what you need to do is check with the DMV in the state you plan to register it. You will undoubtedly end up with a state issued V.I.N. but personally I don't think that has much bearing on the value of a restomod as those cars are not scrutinized by the numbers matching crowd and don't really care.

Administrators/managers in local/state/federal gov't offices can do ANYTHING that we the people LET them get way with.... :( and We continue to let them get away with anything/everything they TRY in their repeated attempts to raise tax $$.

OK, it's a '60, '61 or '62. You have a title - what state is it from? What "format" has that state use for its STATE ISSUED VINs? (over the last 50 Years) Does their format fit the VIN on the title? WHERE do they normally place their state issued VIN tags? (I have seen one '61 with the state-issued tag mounted inside the glove box.) Your owner is either not providing basic info or you are reluctant to pass it on. You need to start thinking about your protection - if law enforcement shows up tomorrow and declares this a stolen car, can you lay your hands on the owner to protect yourself from charges of possession of stolen property?

On a restomod with new frame and motor, a state assigned VIN shouldn't negatively affect anything and is probably better as it has been blessed by the State. having it registered as a new car with emissions requirements may, but hey, you are in CA, legally you have to meet the emissions requirements of that 2001 LS motor you put in your stock frame 1960 corvette...

Again, with a restomod, and new steering column, you are going to have to remove and relocate factory VIN anyway, which opens you up to the same issues you have here, you aren't going to fool anybody epoxying a '61 VIN tag to an Ididit steering column if question of pedigree ever arises.
Doug

I sent a copy of it to Roy. Let's see what he thinks if he wants to share his opinions. It's a '63 VIN and says CV for body style. Title date was 2000.

Check your PM's.

I love California, it keeps New York from being the worst state in the nation! But I could never live there.

Did not see anything from OP about sale under supervision of probate court. What I saw was estate sale, which could be many things.

63?. Would love to know what body style. If it's a SWC then he got a hell of a deal. If not, oops.

Ooops....

Then how do the manufactures get away with selling bodies in white to race teams? There are LOTS of cars out there, never intended for highway use, sold thru the dealer networks on bill of sale only because they are only partial builds and do not have VINs. Hardly a federal offense.

Apples and oranges to this conversation.

A body in white is an incomplete vehicle or another way to put it would be a bunch of assembled parts and by this definition is NOT a vehicle.

Yes, there are a lot of cars out there never intended for highway use and stated so when sold new as not meeting FMVSS. These were factory type race cars such as Mopar A990 cars and 1968 SS Hemi Darts and Cudas to name a few. Most were sold from the dealers just passing the (MSO or MCO depending on the time frame) and not titled. However don't confuse titling with registration. A car that was not built for highway use due to not meeting FMVSS CAN be titled BUT not legally registered (read--licensed for street use.)

I received some great guidance privately. Thanks.

Doesn't matter anyway, assuming we're talking about California. The probate courts don't "supervise" the sale of non-real estate assets in any meaningful sense with respect to the mechanics of the transaction. And in many probate actions the executor can even sell real estate without court approval. The court just wants to see that the estate got full value for its asset. As long as no heirs challenge the sale and the probate referee doesn't raise a red flag, the sale takes place.

The owner might have a cause of action against the executor/administrator if fraud was involved, but that seems unlikely, since the executor/administrator probably had little real knowledge about the car.

Acquire the "donor" car (with title) and make the resto-mod. Your done.