GM Authority: C8 Delayed 6 Months Over Electrical Issue
 

The mid engine Corvette will not debut next month at the 2019 North American International Auto Show in Detroit. That much you probably already know. But what you probably don’t know is why.

According to sources familiar with the matter speaking to GM Authority on the basis of anonymity, engineers have uncovered a major electrical issue with the future Corvette during the development process. From what we gather, the vehicle’s electrical system can’t carry the load necessary to support the necessary components.



Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/12/...#ixzz5ZVpOzTlf

Very interesting . . . thanks and better now than when they start producing. That's the purpose of rigorous testing.

Assuming, I know I know, that's true this is why they do all the R&D and testing, good on them.

PC

Cant wait for all the YouTube wannabes to start making their videos.

So is the debut delayed 6 months or the plans for start of production? Either way those rumors of it being a '21 MY instead of a '20 are starting to look more and more realistic.

GM authority has experienced very poor credibility in previous announcements. And how likely is it that C8 engineers could made a design mistake in the electrical systems of a gas powered car that would cause a 6 month delay. After all, its not a Tesla and GM likely borrowed heavily from previous 12 volt electrical designs. Sound like a red herring to me.

Yep, who knows.

How can they have designed an electrical system not capable of running the car and accessories? Wouldn't the "draw" of each component be known going in? This doesn't make sense to me but I'm no engineer.

Remember this?

https://www.corvetteblogger.com/2018...eeds-jump-tow/

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...7b24d065ea.jpg

Here we go again. lol... Hey, ever think this delay was what we already heard about? i.e., a like April debut vs... los angeles or detroit?

I don't understand why they can't just unveil the car like normal and just delay production if necessary. The only reason I can think of not unveiling it would be if the outside would look drastically different, but if it's an electrical issue that shouldn't be the case.

Spreading a massive, impactful false rumor is one way to force out GM to make a statement :cool:

A 6 month delay is way better than a massive recall. We all need to have patience.

Yes, I do remember it.

I also recall many years ago, during the C6 I was told by someone who should know something about electrical systems. His statement was the 12 volt system is maxed and thus it was at least a slight gamble to "save weight" in the engine compartment by putting in the lightest, reasonable charging system. They did anyway, and some suffered but not everyone.

Possibly the electrical system in this new model IS being maxed out for today's various drains and "requirements" for more connections/contraptions?. Maybe? I don't know. I'm also like jimmy and not an EE.

So now the New York auto show will feature the refreshed C7 with the Blackwing and 10 speed auto. Hopefully we will also see the new interior.

I think someone posted something about a delay and the ME being pushed back/delayed from 2020 MY to 2021 MY awhile ago...but no one wanted to believe or accept it. Electrical issues bring back nightmares of the 1984 C4. GM certainly does not WANT or NEED that to happen with the ME car...

I do not believe any of this! To many cars have not sold on the 2018 lot let alone 2019. What are we building a Electric car? Electrical loads ? What Loads you place the gas driven motor in the center and you place one electric motor in fnt&one inthe rear of the gas motor.I If the front motor is to small in kilowatt design then we have a load problem. They are just trying to use the smallest electric motor possible and save a dime. ! Twin electric motors will be needed for the load demands. Case closed!

June, 2018

I'd believe it. charging systems have always been a sore spot for gm in cars with a lot draw... Dating back to AT A MINIMUM the late 70s cadillacs. Not that ford or dodge escaped either.

so what. The C7 soldiers on for 2020.. get it right... one shot at this. Or it's FIERO 2.0 only a lot more expensive.

I think there are some people around here who need to pass out some apologies.
When those of us raised the idea of engineering delays in the C8 program we were ridiculed by the ostriches on this forum.
*@$^*# off, geniuses.

I'm a ME not an EE by education but..... out Mercedes S63 AMG has a main battery and an 'accessory' battery because of all the electronics incorporated in the vehicle. The last time I paid attention to the 911's (which was waaaaay back in time), they had two batteries in the 'frunk'.

Maybe……...

I'm not buying this either. Electrical problems would not cause a 6 month delay. That kind of stuff is very easy to fix.

Not if the entire electrical system needs re-engineering.

How can you possibly know if it's an "easy fix" on a car that nobody has seen or heard a thing about?

- Hey, Scotty, can you get this machine to work? -- I'm giving it all she's got,Captain! If I push it any harder, the whole thing'll blow!

:lol:

Anything is possible I suppose, but designing a cars electrical system doesn't seem that high of a hurdle to me.....I mean not like they haven't done it hundreds of times in equally complex vehicles.

Regardless if it isn't right, it isn't right, and the delay is appropriate.

I don't believe it. They've been testing this car this ENTIRE time, and they finally find something now? No way it would take 6 months anyways. It's not an electric car, so the supposed electrical issues can't be too bad. I really hope GM unveils the car at the NYIAS, I dont know if I can wait any longer than that. I'd rather have the car production delayed a few months instead of pushing back the reveal even further.

If they chose to install a 24 or 48V electrical system in the C8 I can assure you it will be at least six months delay. Esp if they added electric air conditioning, water pump, and all that other BMW/Prius jazz.

That is the trend for the future - all sub assemblies electric instead of crank shaft driven. Enables faster 0-60 times with less HP as the components draw off the battery (s).

Right now most cars have: ELECTRIC STEEERING, and some have electric brakes..

I like your thinking and I hope GM falls for it!

MGB's had two batteries.

We all know Street Slow 717 will have a video up on this soon:lolg:

I find it odd in this day and age to have this problem concerning electrical capacity.

Pretty simple math.

Yes, V=IR, is simple.

But when you get to the second derivative : the calculations get deeper. They are probably dealing with electrical demand and feed back / spike issues. Stepper motors and computers do not like feed back and transient voltages... Another car company is learning that with it's automatics sometimes doing strange/ bad things....

When I was working we had hybrid's that were an import - if you keyed your mike on your handheld radio while it was sitting in the cup holder - the check engine light would come on.... kind of like some cars do not like the "safe driver" plug in...

With the complexity of todays cars and the amount of sensors relaying information - the wiring and control of RF and spikes can get really complex.

Lets hope it is all figured out before they hit the market...

Do you know how many prototypes that don't even make it into production are shown at car shows, most of which don't even run? What does an electrical problem have to do with showing a mule at a car show?

So now, where do they plan on doing the unveiling? Unless they want to wait a year it's not going to be in North America, exactly where GM should be debuting their flagship car.

:iagree:
For all we know this car could already be years behind schedule.. or 6 months ahead of their target date. As far as any official word goes it doesn't even exist.

So, someone at GM tells GMauthority.com that the car that hasn't been announced or acknowledge yet..... is delayed because of electrical problems? That would be a pretty risky leak....if true!

Had to be an authorized leak if true. Makes sense that Corvette wants to keep interested folks updated on the schedule at least.

It happens.

The 5.9 Grand Cherokee would have a problem in pre-production where the engine would cut out due to electrical load.

It was discovered and fixed as production cars were rolling off the line. Thankfully they found and fixed the problem due to some super smart employee that was able to reproduce the problem :)

I dont if this true or not, but I would think with all the control modules, sensors and wiring in todays cars they would be sensitive to spikes and fluctuations in power. Not to mention all the communication between the various control modules that are now apparently locked down with some sort of encryption.

one way or the other, car isnt coming till GM says so and I hope it is as right as can be.

PC

It's very hard to build a supercar from the ground up and get it right. That is why Corvette has never done it since 1953.

The head of GM research and development Eddy Current phd is not doing anymore interviews.

The first new 18 C7 I sat in at the dealer, did not even crank over, needs a charge but really.

Does sound fishy it's just ohm's law, no variables.

How about this:

All the "INSIDERS" here that "know a guy"...

WHAT'S THE STORY, GUYS????

Is this real or another GM Authority foot shooting?

I heard that also. I think his assistant, Kelly Watt, is doing the damage control now.

Makes my buying decision a little easier. I was hoping for a major announcement / news release in January 2019 for a C8 that I was hoping to obtain by the fall. I didn't like the idea of not having a new vette for the summer but I was willing to wait. Now, if it's 6 more months, it might as well be another year so I think I will go ahead and get a 2019 and keep it for 3 years and hopefully by late 2021 / early 2022...Everything will be worked out and the car will have some time out in the hands of the public and the quirks will be worked out.

Sounds like a good plan.

If?
 

^^^ If GM's motivation was to leak a delay to get those on the fence to buy a C7 to reduce existing stock rather than wait for the ME, it worked in your case.

And that is the reason you never buy the first model year of an all new car.

Maybe with all of the digital goodies instead of analog goodies is too much for the 12 volt system to handle!!! :willy: :willy:

Come on ladies and gentlemen, how different can a C8 electrical system be than a C7 system? Not like the C8 will be landing on Mars. Appears to me to be delays to absorb C7 inventories on the ground.

Electrical power requirements have been dropping over the years. Modern digital circuits require lower voltages and consume less amps. So, even though modern cars have more electronic components, they have not added much to the electrical load. Minor exceptions might be servo motors to change shock settings (orifice based), change ride height, etc. As mentioned previously, the big gotcha would be the impact of the wiring to support hybrid operation.

Since the hybrid version of the Corvette is years away, I would hope that they would use a separate or an additional wiring harness for it. My guess would be that that the control signals for hybrid operation would be integrated into the current buss structure; whereas, the heavier gauge wiring for the battery / motor connections would be separate.

Just my .02 cents.... I can understand that load should be a basic engineering function. Shouldn't cooling needs be similar? We are in year 5 of the Z06 and from what I understand there continue to be issues tracking a "track car" with the optional automatic when it is hot outside. Or the cost equation of putting wheels on it that won't frequently crack and bend. Much like how hard can it be to find a glue that keeps the leather from peeling off the dash that has been happening since the C6. My faith in GM to do the right thing is much lower now than it was when I bought my first new GM car in '84. I believe GM has some of the best engineers around and can easily fix the above issues if they chose to, but it comes down to a cost equation of how much it will cost them during the warranty period vs cost to keep the problem from happening in the first place.

I hope they begin to look a little closer at customer experience and risk to their brand reputation.

That is why most cars are moving to a 48V system.

They design to what they think they need, then they test.

Most car programs have a big oops missed in the design. All the work is done in CAD with simulations for everything. Then they build the car. Things show up when the car is moved to different environments that do not show up in simulation or even initial testing.

The last Liberty/Nitro was designed to use a composite horse collar instead of a metal one. All the simulation said it would work. Prototypes built here in Michigan in the winter passed testing with flying colors. Then they took them to the desert and it turned into a limp noodle in thge heat. The whole car was designed, it was done and the fix was ridiculous.

Someone nailed it earlier. It's a hybrid component that is malfunctioning.

My "guess" is they have implemented Start/Stop which requires and electric water pump and other issues. May even have tried to implement what we have in the wife's BMW SUV a simple form of braking energy recovery that only charges the battery when braking or coasting. The BMW has an additional AMG battery that is used with that system. In her prior X5 SUV there was a recall an they replaced that battery with a higher capacity AMG because of unanticipated use issues! Of interest they use the two 12 volt batteries in series for the electric steering to cut the peak current draw in half. The Vette can use >100 amps in peak transient current.

Just my speculation that something other than normal electrical issues caused the problem. Don't think they could have used an F1 KERS type system just yet! :lol:

Yeah, but there are other systems such as electric motor power steering, air, stop start systems, turbo anti lag motors, etc. that could use a separate 48v system, GM has close ties with German companies and the major one is Siemans. GM uses their NX Soft ware systems and probably investigating their 2 tier voltage auto systems like they did with ZF. .Battery technology is the biggest obstacle. Lead acid is very stable but heavy.
In 96, the introductory paper "Bordnetzarchitektur im Jahr 2005" (Automotive electrical system architecture for the year 2005) was agreed, and on June 4, 1996, BMW presented the "Tabelle heutiger und zukünftiger Verbraucher im Kfz" (Table of present and future loads in the motor vehicle) and the "42V/14V-Bordnetz" (42V/14V PowerNet).

At the 7th International Technical Meeting for Vehicle Electronics in Baden-Baden in the same year, considerable interest was raised by the paper "Neue Bordnetz- Architektur und Konsequenzen" (New Automotive Electrical System Architecture and Consequences), presented by Dr. Richard D. Tabors (MIT).BMW presented the "Spezifikationsentwurf für das Zwei-Spannungsbordnetz 42V/14V" (Draft Specification of a Dual Voltage Vehicle Electrical Power System 42V/14V) in Hanover.

The work at SICAN GmbH was given decisive impetus by the cooperation between BMW and Daimler-Benz as witnessed in their joint definition of the European "Load List 2005" and the jointly authored "Draft Specification of a Dual Voltage Vehicle Electrical Power System 42V/14V".

In intensive discussions with the major semiconductor manufacturers, a voltage of approximately 40 V was found to be advantageous. Many arguments are summarised in the paper "Intelligente Leistungshalbleiter für zukünftige Kfz-Bordnetze" ("Intelligent Power Semiconductors for Future Automotive Electrical Systems" presented by the former Siemens Semiconductors at the 17th "Elektronik im Kraftfahrzeug" (In-Car Electronics) conference in Munich 97.

Other arguments for a higher voltage included the reduction of weight in the wiring system, improved stability, and reduced voltage drop With three times the voltage, thick conductors can be reduced to a third of the cross-section, and at the same time the relative voltage drop can also be reduced to a third. For the same cross-section, the relative voltage drop is now no more than one ninth. The voltage level resulting from these arguments was so close to three times the present voltage that 42 V became the automatic choice for the second voltage level.

You can spend a lot of time searching this stuff. German car electrics are very unreliable right now, but a break through must be on the horizon and GM must be in the loop
.In 2011, several German car makers agreed on a 48V on-board electric power supply network supplementing the current 12V network and introduced the "Combo plug", a common power plug for DC charging electric vehicles. As of 2018, this 48 volt electrical system has been applied in production vehicles such as Porsche and Bentley SUVs, and Volvo and Audi plan to use the 48-volt standard in 2019 vehicles.
I was horrified when GM used German technology in their Caddy 'Hot V' engine and Toyota using a complete Mercedes chassis in their Supra. Maybe the C8 has rear wheel steering like the MB GT which is coupled electronically to the front steering via wires and electric motors. Maybe they have this German system.

Go to Google and look at "GM Global B Architecture". This is the follow up to Global A, which was introduced around 2011.

If the C8 is the lead car for a whole new electrical and data architecture, then yeah, there's a whole lot that could go wrong.

As an Electrical Engineer for avionics systems, I find that highly unlikely. One of the very first things a design team does, is to capture the electrical load requirements and then design in enough margin to operate in extreme conditions, temperature ranges and corner cases.

Could it be something else though? Not just a load requirement, but something to do with interference or systems communication (I only know the very basics of how to wire a race car and do basic house stuff w/o killing myself). If the car has start/stop crap, electric steering, electric AC and water pump and the new super rolling key encryption... is there something in all that that could go amiss under some unique condition and not just simply be a load issue?

Certainly you can question how and why, but one only has to look at other projects like Hubble or Mars Climate Orbiter to see $h!t happens. W/ all the electronics crammed in today's cars, I'm surprised this hasen't happened with other earlier vehicles.

As long as it's corrected before the car hits the market, I'm good. I can't imagine the negative impact the C8 would get if cars would fail to start or worse. One only has to think of the bad press and wide news coverage BMW received when a few vehicles (out or thousands sold) caught fire while parked.

On a side note, I hope GM figures out a way to ditch the traditional heavy and large lead-acid battery in the Corvette with some type of cutting-edge Lithium-Ion/capacitor combo battery that is smaller and lighter.

Bingo! No way GM discussed a issue about a car that they do not even acknowledge is in the pipe line.

GM standard answer is we DO NOT DISCUSS POSSIBLE FUTURE PRODUCTS.

Everyone on the forum always states they cannot reveal their source for information .

So does anyone really believe that a GM employee would acknowledge that their are developmental issue with the future unannounced flagship?

I say no way if they risk their job just acknowledging the car is in the pipe line they definitely get fired for discussion of issue with this unacknowledged future car.

I dunno, that doesn't make sense to me. Why have the heavy (and expensive) wiring to support electric motors on a version that does not have electric motors?

Just like the CAD leaks, the paint shop photos, etc...

Here's your problem.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...a07fe4cc29.jpg

In this particular instance, I couldn't agree more.

Read todays WSJ about Ms. Barra in October assigning cost reduction percentages to each executive and was the BG plant part of this ? Could the engineers looking for ways to cut the cost of parts for the ME and need more time to do it ?

And this right here is why companies have a quality and design validation process. Because even if 1,000,000 shifts isn't good enough, they need to know that and test a whole shipment of assemblies to try and get them to fail under any type of use that it could potentially see.

When I have product fail, I'm typically thankful that it does so that we don't have a bigger problem on our hands with warranty claims, tainting brand image, avoid law suits, losing the business on that product line altogether, etc.

We have a two-tier structure. First tier is the R&D dept conducts a whole slew of tests to ensure that the product functions as intended with the specific performance characteristics needed.

Then the Quality team puts it through the ringer to try and make it fail or break within reason.

Every time a test failed on a prototype we learned to say "THATS WHY WE BUILD PROTOTYPES"

I've got a friend who's an electrical engineer. He's taught college level courses, he's worked for Chrysler and Ford, and he currently works at a multinational electronics company that supplies the automotive industry, among many others. As far as I know, he's got no exposure to anything GM is working on, so he was able to give me some professional speculation.

We discussed the possibility for a 48 volt electrical system, as well as lightweight lithium batteries and increased electrification in even non-hybrid cars (electric power steering, braking, water pump, AC, etc etc).

With modern cars, your alternator is not 'always on'. It switches on to recharge things as needed. The more electrical load you have, the more you need to manage your alternator strategy. As the alternator switches on and off with demand, this can cause a noticeable drop in the torque output from the engine.

As you add in new stuff like 48 volt systems, new battery chemistries, and lightweight harnesses that use aluminium rather than copper, these challenges only get more difficult.

Maybe some of this applies to the C8. Maybe none of it does. Who knows. The only thing we know for sure is that anyone who thinks this is "easy" is a fool.

We haven't seen many pictures of C8 test mules on the street for awhile now. So I wonder when the 6 month delay started. We might be 2 or 3 months in to the delay already and only 3 months or so left.

C-8
 

I was at Sebring last week and they were testing the C-8R on Wed & Thur...The car was very fast and had camouflage all over it. They were testing at night.

No one is going to convince me there is a major electrical problem unless it's a hybrid component. GM builds Caddys with heated front and rear seats, DVD players, power folding seats, heated steering wheels, power freaking everything and they somehow manage. a little 2 seat sports car isn't going to kill the electrical system

All of those systems are present on the C7...just saying.

LOL, I was looking at the landscape and knew it was FL. The dark skies told me it was Summer. I shoulda been a detective.

Maybe GM could go back in time a few years and fix the problems.

The Rickshaw looks a better choice right now than a C8.

Yup. Also, there may not be as much space in a ME to put larger batteries that can support these loads. I'm thinking that GM tried to keep the batteries to a minimal in order to save enough space for a trunk/storage (between the seats and engine) for 1 golf bag and also additional storage space in the front.

They may be desperately trying to retain as much storage space as possible to please those that want the car as a daily and be able to go golfing or road trips with the car.

That is false... AC and water pump are crank driven. Only the PS is electric.

I think he means running them off the batteries instead of the crank.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...211db6c8c2.gif
Guess who's getting a first year C8? NOT THIS GUY! :trainwreck:

hahahahaha

this is what i think could be the issue. the new jeep wrangler comes with stop/start tech, the 2.0l turbo comes with some sort of belt start torque assist and requires a 48 volt battery. the 48 volt battery has some issues as it caused some jeeps stored on lots to catch fire. supposedly the 48 volt battery needs special cooling and heating and has lots of tubes running to it.

the jeeps that dont have the 48 volt battery have two batteries in the engine compartment to assist the stop/start. and if you check some of the jl wrangler forums, you we see there have been a ton of problems with the new wrangler associated with the electrical system. i had planned to add a wrangler to my personal cars but due to all the issues i have put it off.

jeep is adding some sort of stop/start or electric torque assist to all wranglers to address EPA requirements. perhaps gm is doing the same with the c8 and they have run into issues with battery capacity, and/or power distribution components like jeep.