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- C8 General Discussion (https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c8-general-discussion-175/)

- - C8 Corvette Zora analysis (https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c8-general-discussion/4266335-c8-corvette-zora-analysis.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sub Driver (Post 1599278990)

You lost me at para 2.a. You say, "the Corvette nomenclature (science of naming) will be a big determining indicator of whether they build both C8 FE and ME" however, in 1.a you have already made the assumption a C8 FE WILL be built. Which one is it? Your logic isn't very logical.

Hypothetically, what if GM were to name the ME a Stingray and not a Zora? That to me would indicate they are using the traditional FE names and that would mean any possible future FE going forward could not use it's original names. I don't think that will happen. I see absolutely no reason for GM to use the FE nomenclature on a entirely new ME configuration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthursc2 (Post 1599279062)

Whole lot of speculation and feigned intelligence from a guy who can't spell Z06 properly

Where??

Quote:

Originally Posted by skank (Post 1599279079)

The leaked interior shots already showed a stingray emblem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoesC5 (Post 1599279047)

Also, when they installed the new paint system in the new building addition, they freed up space in the old building that housed the old paint system, Same with the Performance Build Center. I wonder what they are going to do with that space in the old building, now that it's empty. Maybe build something other than a mid engine Corvette?

Joe, I've always thought that too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by skank (Post 1599278510)

YOUR THOUGHTS

C8 CORVETTE ZORA ANALYSIS

1. Reveal Logic
2. Nomenclature Logic
3. Pricing Logic
4. Bowling Green Plant size and space utilization Logic
5. Ownership Preference Logic
6. FE vs ME Model configuration Logic

1. Reveal Logic

When the ME price is finally revealed, it will be the indication of where GM has positioned the car relative to the current and future FE Corvette. Absolutely

2. Nomenclature Logic

RPO's mean way more to enthusiasts than GM. GM will slap a Z06 badge on anything if they think it'll sell it. They'll call the ME Zora, DR1, Z06X, Stingray, Mantaray...whatever it takes to sell it, regardless of what wore it before.

3. Pricing Logic

There should be a hierarchy in the C8 generation FE and ME price bandwidth.
FE price bandwidth 62k - 160k In theory I would say 50k-120k (attempt to drop base car price)
ME price bandwidth 85k - 200k I think 200k is eager but...ya never know
ME Cadillac GT price bandwidth 95k - 170k Unsure if this will ever materialize...Caddy is struggling to find itself.

4. Bowling Green Plant size and space utilization Logic

They have tripled the Bowling Green plant sq. footage.
The new paint system is on the #1 basement level of the four level 460’ x 1,000’ new main building.
There is the additional new 369,000 sq. ft. manifold building which connects the old plant to the new main building.
There is now approximately 3,132,000 square feet of Bowling Green plant vs 950,000 SF of the old plant.
Logic indicates that more than 1 configuration will be built at the expanded plant.
Bowling Green also made a 3 million dollar tax deal which requires the plant to employ 270 more people, and maintain that threshold. It doesn't take 270 more people to build ME's. If it does, the customer is footing the bill and the price is going way up. The engine build center will account for about 35 of those jobs, all the others is undetermined.

5. Ownership Preference Logic

Some of us are very interested in a ME and have no intensions of getting a FE going forward.
Some of us have owned Corvettes and other exotic mid engined cars and can give a different ownership perspective.
Those of us that have owned both configurations understand the positive and negative aspects of both.
Most on this forum have an allegiance to the Corvette.
The ME should be upscale over the FE to expand the Corvette buyer demographic.

I agree with all of this, have owned both, maintained and built both and if C8 is DCT only, then GM just put a huge gap in the market for an affordable driver car. Corvette didn't lack positioning, but instead I believe people internally in GM want to mark their legacy with reinvention. Going mid engine, DCT only is a massive risk for Corvette...I'm struggling to see it.

6. FE vs ME Model configuration Logic

I'm going to point out the GM VSS (Vehicle Set Strategy) implementation here. If we look at the first ME mule, it was CLEARLY a C7 center with a UTE body around it. This coincides with the GM VSS approach to dividing a car into engineered sections that include front, mid and rear. The C7 frame architecture has this approach, and that is how the ME mule appears to have been built...with stir friction welded/custom cast front and rear crossmember attachments. GM spoke about 4 core architectures, with subsets added, but Corvette was detailed to have an "offshoot" strategy. I believe Bowling Green and Corvette are implementing this strategy which is going to mold GM's approach to building vehicles in the near future and beyond. Mary Barra talked extensively about it. MEANING to me...they release the ME car, use the center core and build the C8 FE using the core architecture of the C8 ME, then drive the ME upward in cost and introduce the FE....then they build both.

7. For me, I am just looking at the gap revealed if you remove the front engine from the market. It'd remind me of how Subaru evolved the WRX, which immediately opened the door for the Focus RS, the Civic Type R, multiple Euro specific models. If GM leaves the FE behind, not only do you depart legacy (see when Jeep did it with nothing more than square headlights in TJ), but you also leave an opened sector. ME's will have a higher cost of ownership, will require specific maintenance schedules (as do all ME's due to belt service issues and difficulty replacing), meaning affordable track day cars really become a question.

Bottom line for me is, GM has made errors in judgement before, clearly...the list is LONG. What I see is reinvention vs expansion/evolution, if indeed the FE is done for. Reinvention is very risky and if the car fails...not just from an initial execution perspective but in terms of reliability, manufacturing flaws, etc...Corvette as a brand is done. I have a HARD time seeing conservative GM betting the farm but...then again...

My thoughts in bold

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sub Driver (Post 1599279090)

The leaked interior shots already showed a stingray emblem.

That's true, but some people that have seen the latest version of the interior have said thats not the case. I do hope that GM starts to clarify the naming of this car, as it will help clear up a lot of questions. Maybe this weekend at the Bash!

Quote:

Originally Posted by skank (Post 1599279089)

Where??

paragraph 2B is the first, and then you continue it

its a zero, not an oh. Any Corvette fan with room temperature IQ would know that

Quote:

Originally Posted by skank (Post 1599278970)

The new plant has over 2,000,000 more sq ft than the old plant for a total of approximately 3,132,000 sq ft. The capital expenditure of that expansion has been indicated as close to a billion dollars. So yes, I do think they have the cash to do 2 or 3 models. They didn't triple the size of the plant to build just one model.

This is not a production issue.... GM has shown they can build 40,000 Corvettes a year... so why are they only building 20,000? Lazy Union employees?
,
The 2 seat sports car market is demand constrained, not production constrained.... basically, US sales are about 150,000ish per year... Corvette, Porsche, Miata, Jag, Ferrari, Lambo/Audi, BMW... etc.

External issues may move this +/- 10-15%, but its not alot because this market is lifestyle-constrained, not price driven... every brand has it's "space" Corvette's space is $60-90K and about 35,000/yr. My guess (and it is a guess), is by launching 2 models they will sell 15,000 of each... not a great marketing strategy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by K.I.T.T. (Post 1599279126)

My thoughts in bold

K.I.T.T. You are my hero. Seriously, your input on this forum is the best there is. PERIOD !!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by skank (Post 1599278510)

When the ME price is finally revealed, it will be the indication of where GM has positioned the car relative to the current and future FE Corvette.
They will reveal the ZORA first and gauge the buy in and interest on the ME platform.
After the delayed time frame, they will reveal the C8 FE with new body work

Stopped reading there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthursc2 (Post 1599279143)

paragraph 2B is the first, and then you continue it

its a zero, not an oh. Any Corvette fan with room temperature IQ would know that

You are correct that is spelled Letter Z, Number 0, and Number 6. But everybody pronounces it ZO6. For you though I'll go and change it as I want to be correct with the Corvette World.:cheers:

The consistent points that I see the anti FE crowd pointing to, fail the address details that need answered:

1. Why increase the plant size so extensively to build the same volume?

2. Why do a tax deal in Bowling Green that increases jobs by 270 (850-900 current)

3. Why did the "re-tool" happen in the middle of C7 construction, vs the end like all previous generations (Last C6 built, workers furloughed, C7 retooling happens, then workers return/train/build pre-production C7's, then C7 production starts.)?

4. Currently the plant is building C7's AND is ALSO building pre-production C8's simultaneously, this is an appears to be fact. Why break protocol on how they went from c4>C5, C5>C6 and C6>C7? There was a mid C7 pause, and then another post C7 pause....that's one too many for some reason.

5. Why have the Bowling Green investment dollar news releases been timed to skew the facts? Most believe the investment into the plant was approx 450mil for the "paint shop". The fact is, the TRUE investment into the plant was nearly double that, at over 730 million. This was done in multiple phases and the news releases were timed to make it seem like all in one. For reference, the C6>C7 retool budget was 110mil, the C7 to C8 retool budget...ready...260mil. Another relevant comparison is Mary Barra said to retool a plant in Pa was around 100mil, and Ford to retool a Focus plant to build Broncos (entirely different in every way, shape/form, was just under 400mil. GM just dropped HUGE money into Bowling Green...to sell the same 40k cars? The entire budget for C7 initially was like 250m

6. Why did the retool budget cost over double? Why retool the C7 line only to shut it down again in 1.5yrs?

To be fair to myself, the counter argument could be that the C7 line shut down solely to implement the paint shop and engine build center, then potentially rearrange, etc. The workers return, retrain, and the C7 line then integrates the new changes. This allows the various non movable facets of the facility to be "used" and tested, so it doesn't overly risk C8's release (wouldn't want to test a new chassis and new paint process all in one)

There also would be dual shutdowns...and it's known the C7 will end in Sept, and we don't officially know the C8 production start date (but it appears Dec will be the month, meaning the C8 line is THERE already).

There are too many pattern variations, financial anomalies and difference versus all other years, to just build a car with the engine in a different spot. SOMETHING is coming...

Kitt, you just nailed it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by K.I.T.T. (Post 1599279200)

And that right there Ladies and Gentlemen is one of the absolute top posts in the entire C8 section.

Since we are in the business of limitless speculation, I propose that the BG expansion was not because GM management though they could triple Corvette sales, but developing a test-bed for next-generation production methods... efficiently producing low demand niche models with relatively short product lives.

The biggest cost (and risk) in manufacturing is design and tooling costs... all this money gets spent before the first sales dollar comes in. And today, product life cycles are shrinking, market niches proliferating, and engineering becoming more complex. If you cannot hit market windows as they open, you are in big trouble.

To make an IT comparison, in traditional manufacturing, the logic is hard-wired into the production line tooling... great if you are pumping out 1million Impalas a year, but very inflexible.

Modern "platform" design combined with computerized logistics and programmable robotic production allows a new product to move from the designers computer to the factory floor much faster. The companies that manage this process well will prosper, laggards will die.

I think the only problem with my entire theory, that I can't deny within myself is:

Every time I think GM is going to do something awesome....they don't...lmao. This forum has talked about the LT5 being a DOHC...didnt happen. Nurburgring times...didn't happen. Z06X in C6 AND C7...didn't happen. All I can determine is, GM was apparently SOLD on the fact that putting 700m bucks into Bowling Green was worth it, and 270 people get jobs out of the deal. If you sell the same 35k-40k cars/yr...well...that doesn't sound like a viable business case to me unless Cadillac is movin in, or Pontiac returns...lol. Who knows...

Kitt, don’t doubt yourself! Corvette is in BG and it is the only thing there! There are those that think Cadillac is coming(and it may) but, frankly, I’m of the mindset that BG is a Corvette plant. There will be a variety of Corvette vehicles! They will eventually have a FE, a ME and potentially a SUV in the future. Corvette IS a brand! It may be hidden within Chevrolet but it is a brand! A strong brand! Expect the unexpected!

Quote:

Originally Posted by skank (Post 1599279332)

And that right there Ladies and Gentlemen is one of the absolute top posts in the entire C8 section.

Because he agrees with you. What a surprise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mschuyler (Post 1599279450)

Because he agrees with you. What a surprise.

Read and concentrate on K.I.T.T.'s posts. You will learn a lot and possibly even expand your horizon.

Holy crap what is with these FE obsessed people? You would think your questioning their religion.