R12 Substitute - What Works??
 

I have been searching for an R12 substitute, not an R134 conversion. What is compatible with R12 so that I can maintain my existing system with out going through the aggravation of an R134 conversion?

Tell me what you have done to your R12 based air conditioning system.

Thanks
Brian

I'm also interested in a replacement. There is R12 available on e bay all the time may be an option. I just paid $30.00 for 12 oz of R 12 air is icy now, but a long term replacement would be good.

Conversion OK
 

94 On up r134, Just do not get a kit from an auto part store. learn more about it before you switch, I did it my self on problem. A lot of people or going to try to rip you off. R134 - Pag oil. Go to ACKITS.COM Auto airconditioning has a forums.

I am using Envirosafe R12 compatible refridgerant. I bought it off of the internet for $6.00 per can. It's a direct replacement and it works well. Just do a search for Envirosafe and you will find several vendors. :)

Is there something I'm missing (other than you want to do this at home) because R-12 is readily available here in Michigan at shops licensed by the State to work on A/C.
for DIY you have to convert to 134.
I did not know about Evnirosafe as a R12 compatable refrigerant.
So that's a new learning....

Ok, here's my .02 worth. I was not happy with the a/c on my 86 vette and thought it might have been a little low. It would cool but not get icy cold. I went to an A/C shop that 's been in business for 15 years. The owner is on two different auto A/C state boards and president of another organization. (Takes his career seriously)

First off he tested my system, plenty of refridgerent in the right pressure range. Secondly he analyzed the refridgerent properties, turned out someone put R-134 in it with trace properties of R-12. He then went into dictation about how wrong R-134 is for R-12 systems.

I asked about R-12 replacement refridgerents and he stated that THERE ARE NO OTHER REFRIDGERENTS APPROVED OR LICENCED FOR USE IN AUTOMOBILES EXCEPT R-134 AND R12. Sheeeez, He explained that taking short cuts and using other products eventually damages other componants because of corosive properties etc. etc.

He agrees that R-12 is rediculously expensive but gaurenteed me I would be happy if evacuated and recharged with it. The other products are either not approved for automotive use or not designed for an R-12 system.

He was right! The car took 2.75 lbs. and is ICE COLD.

Just my .02 cents worth.

:lurk:

I did some research on the web before I purchased the Envirosafe refrigerant and I read that this stuff is used all over in Europe, cars, buses,trucks. Apparently their governments approved it. I know my 92' is ice cold with it (my brother commented that my a.c. was the first one that he had seen that was to cold for him, he had to turn it off.) We charged his 73 B.B. and it runs nice and cold too! As far as corrosion this stuff is compatible with R-12 and R-12 oil so no problems there. This stuff is supposed to be much more effcient and therefore you use less of it and your compressor turns easier. :)

R12 is expensive, and only getting worse. I don't think techs are even allowed to use it, at least here in Cal.

I was searching the web today and found an R12 replacement called FREEZE 12 and it’s advertised as being compatible with R12 and the mineral oil used to lubricate an R12 system and it appears that it can be purchased without any special EPA permits. http://www.freeze12.com/

Wanting an independent and non-biased review of FREEZE12 I found the following reviews and recommendations.
http://www.alldata.com/techtips/1999/19990906a.html
http://brickboard.com/ARCHIVES/2001APR/20145148.shtml
http://brickboard.com/ARCHIVES/2001APR/20146076.shtml

The links to the EPA on one of the brickboard archive didn’t work so I searched the EPA and found a list of EPA approved R12 replacements.

EPA Links of Requirements – Approved R12 Substitutes - FAQs
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrig...tml#conditions
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrig.../fittlist.html
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/qa.html


I would like to know if any one has used FREEZE12 and if there are any issues.

Thanks
Brian

I just converted my 1992..

I had to replace the evaporator because someone broke one of the pipes going into it while working on the car. I didn't catch it in time because the work was done either before winter or early spring. (I think the later because of other damage done at that time). It you ever get a radiator changed -- watch them do it because there are some really wrong ways to go about it).

To to the conversion,

I first replaced the evaporator, and all the pressure sensors (located near by) and the o-rings. I used newer green o-rings for the ones that I replaced.

It was not that bad a job as those things go but it took some time to get in there. The nice thing is you get at it from the front of the car instead of from under the dash. While I was in there I also replaced heater hoses... The evaporator was the most expensive part and you only need to replace it if it is leaking (or broken).

I then replaced the accumulator because the system had been opened to air by the broken pipe. This is really easy to do since it is right out there in the open between the radiator and the engine.

I used a new stock Corvette accumulator. The parts guy called a support line to find out if it was compatible with 134A and they said they thought it was and had told others that it was. I decided to take a chance on it rather than worrying about if another unit would fit.

I only replaced o-rings for things that I took apart because the system was tight until they broke the pipe off the evap.

I got a R134a conversion kit with just the fittings (without oil or R134a) and took the entire thing to a local garage to be vacuumed out, leak tested, and filled with oil and R134a.

It's been over a month and its still doing fine with cold air!

There's plenty of R12, in fact the supply exceeds demand - there hasn't been a domestic or imported car built in 10 years that needs it. The real challenge is what to do with it - it can't be vented - the tanks will begin to rust and will have to be replaced, and for individuals who think there's a gold mine in R12, let them continue to think that as even the third world countries that continue to use it, ain't going to pay a premium for it. Otherwise, you can get your license at www.epatest.com and buy all you want. Autozone is still the cheapest at about $14/can (maybe not so much of a bargain when you consider that's close to $19/lb). Or, for those who don't mine breaking the law, you can risk buying it in Mexico for 3 bucks a can and hope you don't get caught trying to smuggle it back across the border. In any event, you'll need about 4, so after you spend $25 for a license and another 56 bucks for gas, you will find out that the real expense is everything else you need to fix an a/c system that's 10 years or older (which is another reason why there's whole lot of R12 sitting around).

As far as using Enviro-safe or any of hydrocarbon blends, they're specifically banned in about 19 states. Corrosion isn't the problem, flammability is. As for Freeze 12, it's about 80% R134, so why not just use R134? Despite the Manufacturer's claims, Freeze 12 is no more compatible with R12 or any other gas or with anything else that's out there. Mix it, or any of the so called dropins with anything else, and you have a receipe for disaster (and you will also have a system that no one is going to touch, just in case you decide you need some help).

I converted to R134 5 years ago. I get 43 degrees at the vent. How much colder would anyone want it? I have never understood why some folks are so opposed to conversion. If you convert and it isn't cooling correctly, you either have a faulty component or you did something wrong. I live in a VERY hot climate, and my A/C will literally freeze you out of the car. It easily cools as well as it did with R12.

Don't use any so called "drop in's" for R-12. They're snake oil IMHO. Convert and be done with it. And if you need a recharge 5 years down the road, pick up a can of R134 at Pep Girls and you're good to go.

or you could just buy some off ebay... I wanna be able to test my a/c system for leaks and see what works and what doesnt, i dont need a 50 gallon drum of the garbage, just a enough to put a minimal amount in it... I will not pay a shop to do this as the charges would be outrageous. After it holds a pressure perfectly and for an adequate time, I'll take my car to a shop to charge completely.

I converted mine to envirosafe 12. Works better than R-12. I've done ton's of research on a replacement. I'm glad I'm using this stuff. Its easy to use and is compatible with r-134 and r12. Need info?? I have it.

The problem converting R12 to R134a are the seals and gasket material in the orig R12 system. Putting R134a into R12 eats away at the seal composition and eventually you have leaks. You can change many of the components, but I'm sure there will still be 1 or 2 left that won't be changed and bingo!! I've heard that the enviro stuff replacement makes the gas in the system hotter and is dependent on the radiator to cool it off, like vette owners need more heat going thru their radiators. Put in R12 as the General intended, the cost isn't that bad, and a properly charged AC system last a long time in my opinion. :thumbs:

I have found that most R12 replacement run a higher pressure.That makes it hard on the compressor and seals.134 A convertion with a extra cooling fan is colder I think.134A needs a bigger condenser so you need the other fan.

How about 414b

From what I remember reading at an 'envirotech' (?)Gooogle website) 414b can be used, but there is another series of trade off's I don't quite remember. I'm pretty sure you have to evacuate the lines, and it is more flammable. I don't see much of a problem with orig R12. An A/C charge with that can usually last 10 years plus. :seeya

I also had the conversion problem when my condenser leaked and dumped all my R-12. I bought both the interdynamics R134 kit and the Freeze-12 kit. I figured that I would try the 134 first, and if I was not satisified I would try the freeze-12.

I was satisfied with the R134 (and that is something here in Florida).

If you want the complete Freeze-12 kit that I have unopened, I'll give you a deal. Send me an IM.