Magnetic Ride Control vs. Z51
 

Has anyone driven a C6 with the Z51 package and a C6 with the MRC? I don't plan on taking the C6 to the track or racing it in any way, just regular driving. So my question is, which feels better for regular driving situations, driving on smooth and bumpy roads? Does the MRC make bumpy roads smooth or does it not work that well? Does the Z51 package make the car feel really jittery over bumps?

I have the F55, and have driven my C6 more than 2800 miles in the past 13 days. On highway driving, you'll really appreciate the Tour Setting, and if you decide you want to feel all those road groves, lane reflectors, and expansion joints while getting flatter turns, the Sport setting is just a flick away.

Most people who get the Z51 package did it for the oil and transmission coolers, the better brakes and tires, and the firmer ride, and most say they are pleased with the ride.

One think to consider is that with the bigger Z51 brakes, the car will stop 9 feet shorter from 60 mph, 116 ft. v. 125 ft. That might come in handy some day. :D

Doesn't the Z51 also come with the M12 transmission (comparable to a MN6 and 3.90 rearend). That is the biggest reason that I want the package since I now have 4.10 gears and definitely want a comparable setup in my new C6. Right now, however, I'm waiting to see what the new Z06 will be like.

For us daily drivers the downside of the Z51 pkg would be that the Supercar tires wear out a lot faster. :eek:

I have read this, too (on this forum), but many of the reports from those who were interviewing (Dave Hill and Mike Neal) and testing the (Z51) car (as with the Hib Halverson article) state commentary otherwise:

"The brake system improvements won't be noticed on the street - well except for maybe the cute, drilled rotors - but on the track, especially in situations where you're doing laps in succession, the car stops better and more consistently as heat builds in the system."

The shorter stopping distance referenced above may have been in track situations after the heat was built up in the brakes. If this is the case, a street application to where the shorter distance would be realized (in a safety related situation) would not come into play.

Precisely.

I have often wondered why this gets so overlooked by the Z51 faithful.

Some feel that the replacement (MSR) shocks of F55 should be a consideration (and use this as a reason not to go with F55). Well then why are the Z51 (Goodyear F1 Supercar) tires which will wear out quicker and need maybe twice the times of replacement not a cost consideration?

This discussion has been on the board in abudance.

Please allow me the liberity of an expanded perspective:

Chief Engineer, David Hill, is fond of saying; "Z51 is for the aggressive street driver, for the occasional autocross or track-day driver who also takes the car to work, for the daily commuter who lusts for the sporting nature of America's Sports Car or even the wannabe who has gotta have the cross-drilled rotors and the F1 Supercars 'cause they look cool, but orders an automatic, heated seats and doesn't want anything close to a stiff ride."

However, Hill has also said (a few times) that as F55 technology has so few competitors, he and the whole Corvette team are very proud of their innovation and cherish this technology as a strong feature toward establishing the Corvette as a world-class sportscar taking the next generation Corvette into a new era.

A recent article:

MotorTrend – “The Suspension Dimension.” (September 2004)

“The more performance-oriented, who will likely shift for themselves and perhaps engage in autocross or track events, will want to step up to the Z51 suspension, which adds about $1500. This option used to cost $395, but the higher price represents a significant increase in content, including the larger, cross-drilled brakes, Goodyear F1 Supercar tires and revised manual transmission gearing with shorter 2.97, 2.07 and 1.43 ratios in the first three speeds.

"The Z51 is actually a touch softer than the previous package thanks to revised damping. But again, the new suspension geometry, longer wheelbase, more aggressive tires and shorter overhangs give the car quicker turn-in, better body control and higher cornering speeds.”

“While the Z51 was definitely a hoot to push hard around VIR, the Magnetic Selective Ride package ($1675) is truly the thinking man's alternative when it comes to suspension. In its normal touring mode, it offers a ride as supple as the base car's but with the added benefit of virtually flat cornering thanks to the fast-reacting shocks filled with magnetic-rheological fluid (a magic mix of iron particles and suspension oil) that, when energized by an electromagnet, stiffens the dampers to counteract body roll.

“The system has been changed to have two settings, touring and performance (as opposed to three settings last year). Unlike the previous switch, which didn't prevent the system from going into full performance mode automatically, the touring reacts much slower than the performance mode, producing a little more compliance and body lean.

"The performance mode ensures flat cornering no matter what the speed. In a way, the MSR system inspires a bit more confidence when pushing the car hard around the track — it prevents the body from becoming unsettled when the suspension loads and unloads over undulating surfaces.

"The compromise is the slightly slower turn-in. It just doesn't feel as razor sharp as the Z51 when attacking a corner's apex. The real value however in the MR system is that it nearly eliminates the surprise factor out on the open road when encountering a pothole or other unseen road irregularity.”

<End>

I would think, however, that the difference in that F1 Supercar tire alone compared to the mere run-flat tire of the F55 would be attributable to that "slightly slower turn-in." Besides, this is with maximum speed racetrack situations.

For the practical, daily driver, F55 is hard to beat.

For me (IMO), Z51 is for the "go-fast" mentality that (although being delightfully pleased that Z51 is actually quite forgiving as a daily driven car), the truth is that they don't mind the overkill if they can have the thrill of knowing their car is racetrack ready. They want the most Corvette they can have, especially in that the rotors look better, advertise what suspension they have, and the tires are considered optimum for performance. For me, for my use, the only real lure for the Z51 is the visual effect of the rotors. (Admittedly, larger, cross-drilled brake rotors make the car look more advanced and up with the times for a modern sportscar.)

[BTW, I often wonder if one could mix these packages? Z51 with F55 shocks? We're only talking about shocks, after all, right? Or, adding the F1 (or similar) tires to F55? What are the possibilites that in time, one will not have to choose, but rather, Corvette will have the best of both of these packages universal in the car? (Like Mercedes, etc, who don't offer suspension "packages"; all their cars come with ALL they can.]

The Z51 was designed to have a (slight) compromise of maximum ride comfort in trade for the tightest suspension for spirited drivers, and to ensure that those who were going to be using the car in track, rally or other racing competition had the best possible setup they could have right out of the box. (Thus the larger oil cooler (and other parts), cross-drilled brake rotors and higher performance tires [and lower gear ratio for 6spds].) However, most daily street drivers are not going to be able to bring to use the full performance aspects of Z51.

But the refined aspects of F55 are not to be taken lightly either. This mode offers Cadillac type everyday driver comfort, while adding its own very serious performance characteristics that Z51 simply cannot match. While Z51 might have a slightly tighter turn-in upon high speed (roadcourse racing) corners (which most people will NEVER test), the advantages of F55 take over thereafter. Z51 (rotors) look better and the car turns better under racetrack conditions (especially with those tires). But “spirited” driving has to account for more than looks, and it’s on the street that most of us drive our cars.

F55 eliminates the “surprise” factor and makes “spirited” driving more stable and predictable for the everyday driver who wants to go out and experiment on their car (especially on street and general road conditions of the average person) no matter what the speed and situation is. No matter what the open road or street irregularity is (like encountering an unseen pothole, indentation or fast appearing dip, bend or curve in the road), F55 is ready. Its great technology.

Essentially, F55 thinks for the driver (much like sportscars and sport sedans from Mercedes, BMW and Audi). F55 inspires more confidence for those who don’t have years of track time at Watkins Glen or Laguna Seca (or be forced to be onguard and driving concentrated like they do). On a racetrack, there are no unexpected matters to deal with. On the street? Everything SHOULD be unexpected. That’s the difference.

While Z51 is a dedicated (fixed) sport-tuned setup, the beauty of F55 is that it gives you a much broader range of suspension feel and firmness. It’s like having two cars in one, with only a turn of a button (on the fly) to make the difference.

Dedicated tight, sport-tuned suspensions have lots of examples from almost all manufacturers. But F55 sets Corvette apart. As a longtime European sportscar owner who would have never considered a Corvette before, the rules have changed. The new Corvette is demanding its place in this ultra-competitive arena.

They should make this a sticky. This question gets asked alot. :)

Honestly.
 

The drilled, larger rotors.
The lower first four gears.
Plus you still get run-flat's.
It's all good news to me n' VN4290

What is the real story with the transmission in the Z51? I've seen it said that the first TWO gears are lower, that the first THREE gears are lower, and now the first FOUR gears...

Also, it's been reported here in the forums that the brake pads are the same on base, F55 and Z51 cars. If the rotors are larger diameter on Z51, then does that mean that the calipers are the same just mounted further out (radially) on the Z51 cars? Can one buy the larger cross-drilled rotors and the offset brackets and fit them to the base or F55 cars?

Just a thought for replacement down the road when it comes time to do the brakes anyway...

Stephen

How Motor Trend could get that wrong is amazing. They are supposed to be a car magazine. The F55 has always been two settings and first made available for model year 2003. It was the original adjustable system from 1997 to 2002 that had 3 settings.

The stopping distance numbers come from Corvette Quarterly. No mention of how they were tested, just the 9 foot difference.

Of the 6 gears, only 4th is the same 1:1. The rest are different, others have posted the comparison on this forum a least a few times.

The reason I ordered the Z51 was because of the transmission. I believe even as a daily driver this one difference will be noticed and worth going with this package.

Dana

Same calipers, same pad (size,) which means, overall, the same swept area. Which means you're not getting any benefit from the larger rotors other than the slight chance they'll cool themselves off better.

This'll piss the Z06 purists off, but, much like the C5 Z06, the Z51's braking advantage comes from the contact patches (tires.) Not the brakes themselves.

jas

Yeah, I wasn't planning on changing them out until the pads were gone and the stock (non-Z51) rotors were glazed or warped. I figured if I had to buy a set of rotors anyway it wouldn't hurt to "upgrade" to the larger Z51 rotors.

I've gotten in the habit of not turning rotors. If the rotors are so far warped as to require turning, I'd rather replace them. Turning them just makes then thinner and more prone to warping again.

Thanks for the info!

Stephen

All other factors the same, a larger diameter disc rotor will provide greater stopping power because of its greater leverage. The Front rotors are 13.4" (Z51) vs 12.8", giving 4.7% greater leverage. Rear rotors are 13" vs 12", giving 8.3% more leverage.

Thanks for the clarification! :cheers:

Stephen

This only works, of course, provided the pads/calipers aren't overwhelmed by the greater rotor velocity. One of the major fallacies of brake advertising is: bigger diameter rotors are better!! Well, they're not always better. If their greater velocity is too much for the calipers' clamping force, there's no advantage.

Good discussion. :-)

jas

Adjustable MRC shocks cant make up the performance differences that come from the stiffer sway bars and springs that the Z51 uses, can they?

I don't know of anybody outside of the magazine corps who's spend a ton of time behind both F55 and Z51. If you believe the magazines, the F55 is not a match for the Z51 on smooth track conditions. The F55 begins to shine in uneven bumpy pavement however and can actually outhandle the Z51 if the pavement is so rough that the Z51 starts bouncing off the road. Supposedly the F55 in sport mode controls body roll nearly as well as Z51 by stiffening the outside shocks.

Anyone with real seat time in both?

Stephen

I have quite a few heated discussions (in other forums) on this specific matter. I think too many discount the huge effect that those (F1) tires will have over the base/F55 run-flats irrespective of suspension and brakes.

The real difference between the base/F55 and Z51 in regard to the brakes appears to be rotors and pad thickness. Only under racetrack conditions can the brakes really heat up for any true, measurable difference (at least per these magazine articles). The other primary factor, as you state, seems to be tire related.

Again, from the Halverston article:

"Z51's get a special set of brakes, consisting of larger diameter rotors with curved vane venting and cross drilling. Z51 rotors use the more common curved-vane vents because they're better for cooling.

Also, a different, more aggressive pad material is used, front and rear. The new pads are more tolerant of small thickness variations and that compensates for not using pillar-post venting. The pad material was chosen for compatibility with the drilled rotors, ie: to avoid what brake engineers call the "cheese grater effect" on pad wear.

The more aggressive pad may make a little more noise, but, GM logically figures Z51 owners, the more sporting drivers that they are, will accept that along with better brake performance during aggressive driving.

The rear brake calipers on Z51s have different pistons which are 4mm smaller in diameter. That makes brake bias more optimal for brake pedal feel during aggressive driving maneuvers because there is less ABS intervention and less dynamic rear proportioning (DRP) action to degrade the consistency of pedal feel.

The smaller pistons also decrease rear brake pad wear compared to the front, but the differences in pad wear rates was deemed an acceptable compromise for better brake feel during at-limit handling situations.

The combination of all this chassis stuff makes for nearly a full-tenth of a g improvement in max. lat. from about .90g, for the base C6, to about .99g. In addition, extra ride travel keeps the car off the jounce bumpers and makes driving a Z51 at the ragged edge a less ragged experience.

The brake system improvements won't be noticed on the street-well except for maybe the cute, drilled rotors-but on the track, especially in situations where you're doing laps in succession, the car stops better and more consistently as heat builds in the system."

Now, regarding the tires:

"The C6 Z51 option includes higher-rate springs, higher-rate antiroll bars and larger-diameter, more stiffly-valved shocks. All those items help make the Z51 more of an aggressive driver's car, however, the biggest contributor to the revised Z51's, almost-a-Z06-handling, is the new Goodyear F1 Supercar EMT tire. In a nutshell, it's the original Z06 tire with: slightly more tread depth, slightly less tread width and the more compliant 3rd Gen. EMT casing."

Maybe not completely, but the reports are that F55 holds its own on the track, yielding to Z51 only with "slightly slower turn-ins" (which tires alone could account for), even with all those other suspension modifications that F55 lacks (compared to Z51).

So it would stand to reason, that if someone put F1 tires on F55, the advantages of Z51 would be drastically reduced. (Tires account for a lot.)

What is clear is this, under normal, everday driving conditions, even the base model is more than sufficient, while F55 offers added stability no matter what the speed and road conditions, while Z51 (although providing a surprisingly forgiving ride) seems to be at its usefulness in track situations.

The problem is, you're likely arguing with people who don't quite understand the dynamics of a car on a race track. These are the same people that insist the C5 Z06's "stiffer chassis" and "tuned suspension" are the keys to its killer handling. While those two properties do help, they're NOT what propel the Z06 to the head of the track with respect to handling prowess.

It's the tires, man.

You can have the most killer brake (or suspension, or chassis, or ...) setup in the world on your car. But the simple fact is, if the 4 contact patches can't deal with the load, you're gonna slide. Period. (In braking terms, this means leaving rubber on the road as you stop.)

Beefing up the brakes can help when it comes to longevity and durability. Lord knows, the worst feeling in the world is going into a tight corner nice and fast, and stepping on a brake pedal that doesn't result in a slowing car. When you enhance the brake parts (calipers, rotors, pads, etc,) you make it so they can deal with heat load better, as well as shed it faster.

But simply stopping faster is left to the tires. IF you have more tire than brake, THEN improving the brakes may shorten the stopping distance. Generally speaking though, most Corvettes have far more brake than tire.

jas (been there, locked that, got the skid marks.. ;-))

Precisely.

The racetrack is a great illustration for this point.

In all motorsports, where the cars have almost the same degree of handling components onboard as another, should the tires on a given car begin to go away, SO DOES THE HANDLING!

A racecar is ONLY as good as its tires.

In F1 (ironically a name given to the Goodyear Z51 tire - Goodyear is not even in Formula One), considered the pinnacle of motorsports competition, one can see the significant battlegrounds of tire competition above all else. While there are cars that are clearly better than another, a great equalizer is the brand and condition of one's tires. The top entries are very close to each other is almost every degree, except tires!

In most major forums of motorsports where there is more than one brand of tire in the series, a certain package will usually excel beyond the others and become the tire to have if one wants to be within the winning odds.

The tire manufacturers spend billions getting their compound just right as to stay competitive in this demanding sport.

This should tell us something about tires in general and the degree of the contact patch as well as purpose and limits of the tire in particular. This accounts for a whole lot more than some seem to realize. In a racetrack testing environment, the degree of tire is going to be largely accountable for those times that are getting published.

More from the article with Hill and Neal:

"Acceleration, handling, braking and ride all depend on the contact patch. In tire design it is probably the most important area tire engineers design around."

"GM wanted the FE3 tire to be a substantially better performer than the FE1 tire because they wanted the Z51 to go faster, do quicker lap times...they really wanted to differentiate between the two vehicles, handling-wise.

"The problem, from our point-of-view, was we were using the same sized tire for FE1 and FE3, so we had to get all that extra cornering power through the construction, tread pattern and compounds so that Mike could get the better lap times with the same size contact patch. In the end, we went to Grattan, did back-to-back timed laps against a C5 Z06 and we got exactly the lap times and lateral acceleration that Dave Hill had tasked Mike with getting.

"I think GM was pretty happy," Goodyear's Nick Hill states proudly, "with where they ended up with the F1 Supercar EMT."

Bottom Line: The F-55 you will get better usage than the Z-51 in street driving because in the real world of street drving you encounter many uncontrolled situations that aren't text book by that I mean the roads are not properly maintained, not in a CONTROLLED Environment like a track or are well maintained like a track, slippery, uneven, neglected, full of potholes that you will not expect on the street in daily driving. On the track you will make better use with the Z-51 package as The track is a controled environment and is very well maintained and controlled the track was designed to put your top end speed to test and acceleration also so you can use and make the best use of the Z-51 in that kind of environment which is the ideal environment for this type of driving on The Track...Street driving whole new ballgame. Very uncontrolled situation and don't expect the roads to be in as good condition as the track so you will enounter debris, rocks pebbles, lots of traffic and basically surprises Morons on the road that can make your car handle differently than if you were on the track under ideal conditions verses bad conditions. The F-55 is there ready for you and any surprises and will keep your suspension and car planted to the ground. Can't say that for the Z-51 in the same environment. I believe the F-55 would be more of a safety issue luxury item or like for the corvette so that you can get the best of both worlds from a soft Cad ride to a stiffer sports car ride but a suspension that wil give you better control in the STREET unlike the Z-51 could do because try the same thing in a Z-51 and see if you end up airborne or not or drive it over a pothole at 120 mph like they did with the F-55 in those tests but the F-55 car did not go air born but the non F-55 car did and whether it was a base suspension car or a Z-51 suspension car that wasn't mentioned but neither one would be able to perform like this because they are all different in their own ways so it again comes down to the type of driving you will be doing and what you feel comfortable with as far as what is the purposes behind these 3 suspensions. It is all up to you how you want to drive and or what kind of driving you do, conditions of your roads, public roads vs. track???One suspension isn't superior to the other or better it is which one is better suited to your driving style.. Yes cost replacement factors right now for the F-55 shocks are 500 to 750 for each shock but the Z-51 tires are faster wearing tires and if you drive the Z-51 the way it was meant to be driven on the track you will go thorugh tires like you go through underwear so make it a fair comparison if possible and draw your costs consclusions from that if it comes down to the old tried and true reason of $$$$$$$ making your decision. ...:cheers:

:iagree: safety comes first :thumbs:
I had heard that this F-55 also helps protect your car from bottoming out. :cheers:

Dude.. punctuation and paragraphing are your friend. Try them out. It'll make your posts a hell of a lot easier to read.

Here's some Corvette history for you all: We've heard this same thing, time and time again, with the C4, C5, and now C6's adjustable suspension system. While I'll allow that GM is making improvements to each itteration of that suspension, in the end, the Z51 is going to win out. On the road and on the track. The adjustable suspension is just another way to get buyers to spend more money.

My money's on Z51.

jas

I'm surprised GM doesn't let you order the F55 on top of the Z51. My money is also on the Z51.

This is a good discussion, but I'm surprised that some people are still focused on "victory."

Are you worried about wrecking because that mid-corner pothole upset your Z51 just enough that you couldn't save it?

Or are you worried about wrecking because that hour-long 10/10ths romp through the mountains made your F55's brakes just a little too soft to stop short of that felled tree?

F55 is great. Z51 is great.
You can't go wrong.
Get whatever appeals to you.

.Jinx

But of course your $$$$ is on the Z-51 you missed the whole point tell us something new...Z-51 all the way. :yesnod: :lol:

:iagree: Yes Jinx pretty much summed it all up. and I say Go with what suits your needs, wants, driving style, road or track conditions because that is what is BEST for YOU. It is your money and you can spend it however you want to no need to justify your purchase to others unless your wife has a gun to your head... :lol: GM is in the business of selling these suspensions and catering to the needs of a wide audience to make more $$$$ unless you guys all get commissions.. :cheers: Have fun with whatever you get :thumbs: You can't go wrong.....Hmmm maybe the Porsche isn't so bad after all. :lolg: :lolg:

Come on, now. This is way too simplified.

All cars and the marketing thereof has elements for "spending more money." In the case of C6, one could easily make this argument for Z51, too.

After all, why not just choose the base suspension? The base is more than adequate for most people most of the time. Unless you're racing the car during track day sessions, the base is still a very well engineered package that will never let you forget that you have a modern sportscar underneath you.

So why have the Z51? Because you enjoy the stiffer ride?

Please. The Z51 faithful went for Z51 because of the "go-fast" mentality that was tarketed into the Z51's marketing. They like the rotors (and advertisement of Z51 with the rotors), tires and the thrill of knowing they have a racetrack ready car, even if they never take it there.

Corvette knows that there are plenty of people who buy Corvettes that still have very little appreciation for any top technical gadgets toward refininging the car's ride (or anything else). These types just want the performance characteristics - one can see this in their postings - everything is "well, get ready to look and my back bumper," "I would rather have a second quicker 0-60 than an auto top," "my vette would kick a stock Corvette's a--," etc., etc., while at the same time rediculing the "ricers" for the "boy-toy" mentalities.

Those rotors and tires and the rest of the "go-fast" marketing cues they're selling you is working just fine, even if its overkill. MOST of the Z51's performance cues will not be realized to any great extent on the road, in everyday driving conditions. Unless you're pushing the car HARD on the track, you won't notice a read difference except for the stiffer ride and (over base and F55).

Just read the quotes from Dave Hill in my previous postings in this thread; they knew what they were doing when they tarketed the Z51 crowd too. Let's be real.

F55 offers two (noticably) different settings and caters more to the sportscar enthusiast who does not mind a little Euro-style technical refinement to go along with all the performance aspects of their cars. Corvette sales are now catering to a more broad range of buyers. Today many business executives have appeal for the cutting edge aspects of Corvette that can be enjoyed during their concrete jungle daily treks to where the "go-fast" mentality is miles beneath their intellectual interest. (In fact, this image of the stereotypical Corvette buyer is what holds Corvette from back from being a car that the bulk of the social elite can embrace - the car still has this nagging "budget macho machine" imagery attached to it.)

Personally, I feel that F55 (as a technical achievement shared by so few of its competitors - unlike Z51, in which fixed sport-tuned suspensions are commonplace today), sets Corvette apart and gives it real clout in the upperclass Euro sportscar realm. People who typically favor high-end European automotive products can have a newfound appreciation for Corvette given Dave Hill's (and Mike Neal's) forwardthinking design elements, like F55, for which these Euro buyers cannot easily get elsewhere.

Z51? With their budgets, getting a dedicated (fixed) sport-tuned suspension is very easy and the choices then would put Corvette into the mix with others (like MB SLK55), instead of being unique, as with F55.

Let's understand marketing overall. No one suspension has the market on the "spending more money" concept. Each suspension, like each buyer has been accounted for by Corvette. It is what it is.

We should applaud Corvette for knowing its market and being able to design cues that trigger the emotions of its buyers.

Both of the packages have their purpose and usefulness.

Now THIS would be really special.

If all we're talking about is special shocks and a very supportive aspects thereof...?

Or, one could put the F1 supercar tires on F55.

(Its the tires that are most responsible for the performance advantages of Z51 anyway.)

And you're way too verbose. But that's ok. :-)

Some of us DO take it there, though. And, the Z51 coupled with gummy DOT-legal R-compound tires makes for a downright unbeatable car on the track.

I applaud your well-thought-out explanation for the F55, but simply put, we've heard shades of these same lines before. In the end, snake oil's still snake oil.

True. The Z51 now actually costs a lot more money than it used to. It actually approaches the adjustable suspension in MSRP. But it's still less expensive.

I certainly won't argue that point in the least. I just suspect people are making a far too big a deal over the "purpose" of the F55.

In the end, as someone already posted, you needn't justify your suspension choice to anyone other than yourself. But please don't feed me a line of GM's marketing garbage about how elite, civilized, and forward-thinking the adjustable suspension is.

jas (perhaps I'm a cynic, but maybe not ...)

For some people, perhaps this answer is yes.

Is this such a bad thing?

Spirited driving need not come with WWI flyer bravery (no parachute).

The bulk of F55 buyers want maximum comfort, more stability more of the time, confidence when in spirited driving situations in unfamilar conditions and having two modes providing top technical engineering for a "next generation" car, especially if you don't have racetrack sessions in mind.

Z51 outstopping F55 is anything but clear.

The braking advantages of Z51 (over F55 and base) will not be truly realized unless one is driving the car hard (again in racetrack conditions) to where the brakes can heat up in successive applications.

From my previous posting...

"... reports from those who were interviewing (Dave Hill and Mike Neal) and testing the (Z51) car (as with the Hib Halverson article) state:

"The brake system improvements won't be noticed on the street - well except for maybe the cute, drilled rotors - but on the track, especially in situations where you're doing laps in succession, the car stops better and more consistently as heat builds in the system."

A street/road application to where the shorter distance would be realized (in a safety related situation) would not come into play.

Actually, it's called "magnetorheologic fluid." :rofl:

I can't say one way or the other whether it's a placebo effect or a real "best of both worlds" solution. I haven't driven one (yet.)

I'll let you know in about 2 weeks... :cheers:

Stephen

hmm....well, I for one, can tell the difference between "Sport/Tour" settings. Haven't driven a Z51 but have NOT overly fond memories of my C2 w'F41.

BUT - I have a question, slightly OT -
A lot of people are talking about the replacement costs of the F55 shocks (and please - lets NOT go there again), so could those shocks be replaced with Z51 shocks? Are the mounting points the same and in the same location?

And in that same vien - I know I could "up-grade" to Z51 sway bars but am I wrong in thinking they would add to OVERALL stiffness? Even going in a straight line over a bump the "torsion like action" of the sway bars SHOULD have an effect on overall stiffness. Or is that effect so minimal as to inconsequential?

I'm sure, physically, you could do it. But then you've instantly lost the use of F55. The shocks in the Z51 aren't filled with the same fluid as the F55 ones are. I'm not sure how the F55 shocks get their signals from the car, but I assume it's via an external electrical connector. That's also not present on the Z51 shocks.

Overall, not a good move.

They really won't add OVERALL stiffness. You'll notice the difference between the two sets of sway bars during single-wheel bumps, as well as switch-back corners. In both cases, the larger Z51 sways will provide more stiffness.

jas

Too many threads; same topic
 

More discussion in this thread of these specifics:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=865373

Great stuff, though.

This needs to be a sticky.

How do we get this done?

I admitted openly when I switched my order from base to Z51 that I changed from a rational decision to an emotional one. I figured, shoot I added $1,400 for sport seats, $1,300 for polished wheels, what's another $1,500 for the Z51? When it came down to it, my decision wasn't based on the aspects of the suspension or the type of ride at all. It was based on the difference in the transmission and on assumption I made about reselling the car in the future. My assumption is that I'll enjoy the more aggressive gearing in daily driving and I'll get back the added cost when I go to resell. In the meantime I'll have the benefit of the Z51 transmission.

:beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:

Dana

I see.

Can you think of another company that offers two distinct suspension settings; one of a top luxury car, the other that of a top sportscar, all in the same car?

I cannot, and I have owned a few $100K+ luxury sportscars in my time. Now my MB SL's handle very well. But they don't handle like a Corvette. But the Corvette (any Corvette) does not have the refined comfort feel of an SL (etc).

However, with F55, I am a WHOLE lot closer to having two in one than I could get with ANY other car on the road.

As was said in this and other (linked) threads, F55 feels like a dream on everyday road surfaces (even rougher roads), even at speeds north of the posted limit. F55 is very forgiving, just as is the base package.

Yet, if one wants to get into spirited driving affairs, F55 is equally ready with a mere turn of a button on the fly. F55's sport mode is very apparent. (Belonging to car clubs and being in the entertainment industry has its perks. One of them is being able to drive a variety of cars for extended periods of time.)

Z51 has many comparative examples.

I am aware of exactly none for F55.

You may regard this as a "line about GM," etc., but unless you have a list of examples of comparative applications which I may have missed, then GM simply leads this territory. It is what it is.

:iagree: But I like oranges better than applies right now because they are juicier even though they are more messy. But later I might change my mind depending on my mood and prefer apples to oranges because apples aren't as messy to eat. :yesnod: :lol: :lol:

:iagree: This is so true on the street you have bumps, uneven pavement, potholes, oil slippery roads and the F-55 will be more suited to the unknown conditions of a poorly maintained street whereas the Z-51 is better suited to the track that is properly maintained with no surprises like you will encounter on the streets with other civilians who share the same road with you with different intentions behind their driving. :cheers:

Don't forget about braking technique and reaction time those are just as important as the driver who has control of the car and excellent reaction times not just the equipment being used.

It is two different types of driving two totally different environments the track and the street/public roads. The best brakes in the world aren't going to help you at all if you don't react in time or know how to use them. The best equipped handling car that can accelerate and stop on a dime isn't going to do a thing for a person who can't drive. Again these are two different styles of driving perhaps a Z-51 suspension should be compared to some other type of suspension that is a track oriented and the F-55 can be compared to a base suspension or another of the same type of real time dampening suspension like those used on the C-5. We are comparing cats to dogs.

Just be glad we can discuss this for the mere fact we have 3 suspensions that we have a CHOICE to choose from which makes the Corvette that much more appealing to a wider base of customers that's all there is to it. GM can sell more cars this way catering to all different types of people with the Corvette so at least we are not locked into having the car come in only one way, one color etc. The same goes for the exhaust systems alot of people need to make some noise to feel that they get noticed and makes them feel they are going faster. Alot of show and go or in most cases all show and no go. Just for sound effects and cosmetics. So then we end up comparing exhaust systems but does it really matter or do you really feel and see the performance compared to factory? What do you sacrifice when you do this? Something doesn't fit right or you loose space?..Why are Mustangs so successful? Because they can appeal to everyone from different walks of life age, sex whatever at an affordable price accordingly to how the car is going to be equipped which is why it is still alive today and has outlived all of its competition. Success of a car that comes in so many different configurations that it appeals to everyone that has a different reason to drive. :cheers:

Nothing personal, but has anyone who's posted in this thread read the original post? Who has driven both F55 and Z51 in the C6?

For my part, I have already indirectly indicated this.

To comfirm, yes, I have driven every version of C6 available today. (I'm in the brand event marketing arena within the entertainment industry. We're looking to do some TV events with Corvette, even though my partners prefer Cadillac XLR. I am also a producer with Billboard and am doing events with Mercedes and others.)

I also belong to several auto clubs which tour my area. Sometimes these clubs service our product showcasing (cars) interests which has added perks for me.

However, one item of note, the technical aspects of the two options (particularly F55) are evident in numerous publications and need not have to have direct experience to speak upon. My statements would remain the same even without direct application.

But toward answering the inquiry; yes I happen to have (driven both).

And where is this Z-51 equipped corvette at that you can test drive?
 

They had all other configurations of Corvettes available for test drive except the Z-51.

Who's "they"?

This "they" source (GM events or something?) bears no bearing on me.

In car clubs and cars owned by automotive (entertainment) production groups, these cars are the private property of individuals and firms.

There is no "they" that has to make these cars available to the public. :)

[FONT=Times New Roman]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by c2jones

Who's "they"?

This "they" source (GM events or something?) bears no bearing on me.

In car clubs and cars owned by automotive (entertainment) production groups, these cars are the private property of individuals and firms.

There is no "they" that has to make these cars available to the public. :)

---

GM AUTOSHOW IN MOTION PERHAPS YOU SHOULD TRY THEM YOU CAN DRIVE CARS, TRUCKS, SUV'S, COMPACTS, HYBRIDS

Ah... okay, thanks, but what's with the oversized font in the quote box?

You should go back in and edit this down to normal size.

People will think you have too much time on your hands. :)

Actually, it really isn't. Because of legal issues, the speeds are different. But that's about it. Ask anyone who's spent time on a road course (as I have.) They'll tell you the lessons they've learned on the track almost directly apply to every day driving.

Get some track time and then comment. :-)

jas

:eek: Whoops sorry I must have hit something in the font box...all of this typing is making my hands shakey...Do they have magnetic steering for those of us who have shaky hands? :lolg:

I am not sure what you’re saying with this, respectfully.

These suspensions were all thoroughly track tested.

Besides, “lessons learned" on the track are fine, but the issue up for discussion here is the advantages and purposes of each suspension and its applications for the given driver and their road-going conditions.

F55 is more driver friendly for those who want maximum comfort on the street, where most of us drive (just as LS Won indicated) while also having the flexibility of a sport-tuned mode readily available.

Surely you're not saying that all roads that any given driver is exposed to are going to have the smooth surfaces or be free from the unexpected dip or pothole, etc. like that of the "road courses" you've driven on. The difference in conditions is far more than mere speed limits legally regulated.

Besides, regarding the speeds and performance elements, surely you're not saying that all those suspension, transmission, oil, tread, etc. components of Z51 (which are "road course" components) are going to be directly relevant to everyday street (public roads) driving. The numerous clippings from the Corvette team throughout this thread illustrate very clearly that most of these performance aspects (like “better braking,” effective use of the oil and transmission coolers, etc.) will not be realized on the street.

Perhaps you’re referring to feel and predictability?

Seems F55, by virtue of the various “road course” testing events has the edge here, too.

On C6, the most extensive track testing summaries have almost universally stated that besides a “slight faster turn-in speed” for Z51 (predominantly due to the “supercar” tires alone), that F55 more than held its own and offered the driver more confidence knowing that the car would remain stable and predictable no matter what the speed and conditions. This is far more useful for street driving.

If one has significant track time they’re factoring in, or they want the absolute tightest suspension they can have (or the “cool” rotors, for their own reasons), then Z51 is an obvious choice.

But for everyday driving on roads that are in no way akin to the surfaces, conditions, speeds and on-the-edge, elongated full throttle and braking demands of road courses, F55 is more than sufficient. (In fact, if one placed the supercar tires on F55, I think many would be duly surprised at how well the package fared.)

It boils down to applicable driver use.

Are you in contention with this?

Does it require “track time” to know that road course surfaces and conditions are different from public roads? I’ve done some Skip Barber (etc) at Lime Rock and Watkins Glen, and have had a few potent cars in my life, but there are few roads or conditions that match the sessions on those tracks. I never was with full throttle and hard on the brakes for hours with potholes, dips and jaywalkers in front of me on those tracks.
Besides, the people who have pushed ALL C6 packages to the limits with extensive “track time” have published their findings. You can read a great deal of said findings right here in this thread.

Isn’t their word as good as yours, respectfully?

Just trying to clarify. No offense to you. :)

It was a response specifically to LS WON's statement of
I've spent about 7 years doing track events, and the driving skills learned on the track directly apply to driving on the road. Does that mean I drive my Corvette at 9/10s when I do my 3 mile morning commute? No. Does it mean I am using my and the car's handling and acceleration characteristics to cut through tough traffic safely and smoothly? Absolutely.

There are a number of people who haven't ever taken a track driving course insist that what's learned on the track will never apply to the road. Unfortunately for these people, they have nothing to base their assumptions on, since they HAVEN'T spent time on the track. They just assume it's balls-out speed and 9/10s cornering, which isn't true. I ASSumed LS WON was one of those folks.

By GM and the house organs (Corvette Fever, Corvette Quarterly, etc.) None of these folks are ever going to give you a completely objective review.

"Road courses" in quotes? Questioning my background? :-) What I've seen on track is anything but this imaginative glass-smooth surface you're refering too. In fact it's precisely the unevenness of the track surface that helps show the advantages of things like independent rear suspension and whatnot.

Are there 1-foot deep potholes? Nope. Are they baby-butt smooth though? Not hardly.

If you drive the speed limit around every corner you come to, then no, you'll not realize any of the advantages of the Z51 parts and pieces. If you don't mind (or, actually, look forward to) pushing your car more than a little bit, then I'm fairly certain you will notice the difference.

You have me at an advantage because I've yet to turn a wheel in a C6. But, remember the gist of my original post: we've heard all this crud from GM before, for the C4's adjustable suspension, then the C5's. In BOTH cases, said suspensions turned out to be utter trash and gimmicky, WHEN you leaned on the car. My cynical nature says, given GM's track record, the C6's F55 will ultimately end up the same way.

Keep quotin' them house organs. I'd much rather find out for myself, OR hear from an independent reviewer. Corvette Quarterly and such are anything but.

Yep. I'd say it more boils down to driver want, not use. I am perfectly comforable in a Z51-equipped coupe, commuting, taking long trips, tearing up the mountains or race course, or just going grocery shopping. Bumps and all. I don't ever go over a bump and think to myself, "Self, I'd bet I'd be more comfortable with the C5's (or even the C6's) adjustable suspension." The thought just never crosses my mind.

Let me turn the question back at you: Is their word good enough for you?

jas

Can you just go in and fix it?

Use the "edit" button.

It hurts my eyes! ;)

To: jvp.

Irrespective of our viewpoints, I find our discussion informative and certainly worth the time. Good stuff. :)

Yes, I know what it was in response to. The inquiry I had was that I do not absorb your reasoning on this. (With all due respect.)

In everyday driving modes, the Z51 suspension is not going to be as apparent in contrast to base and F55 as you're presenting it to be. A perception of "cutting through traffic more smoothly and (especially) safely" is just that; a perception. Nevertheless, how your years at racetracks somehow tranforms your Z51 and road conditions into a smoother and safer process than the other suspensions is really a reaching assessment, most respectfully.

Now, now, you're not really reading these articles are you?

Should you go back through this thread you will clearly see that the track testing for all three suspensions was gathered largely from a recent issue of MotorTrend magazine. (Other magazines have come up with the same results.)

Could I request that you scroll back up (on this very page) and see: "MotorTrend – “The Suspension Dimension.” (September 2004)?

But your "house organs" reference was certainly funny, BTW. :)

Absolutely not. I question nothing about your integrity, only your reasoning. You mentioned 'road courses' so I placed the term in quotes to match your words. Its an aspect of emphasis. Nothing about (my use anyway) of quotations is second-guessing your integrity.

You're jumping to extremes to try and make your point.

No one said "glass smooth."

(I told you, I've done some sessions at Lime Rock and Watkins Glen; the former used to be like driving on the moon surface.)

But racetracks do not pose anywhere near the uncertainties of the public roads. This fact should not bear merit for a debate.

The tighter suspension of Z51, even being pushed, will reveal a stiffer (not overly stiff) ride as the most apparent feature one will notice. The tires will give quicker and more darting turns perhaps, but very subtle the difference will be (if at all). The coolers and brakes will have no real public road appreciation unless one is running hard from police down the Los Angeles freeway for a couple hours. This has been the consensus stated even from Dave Hill and Mike Neal.

It would seem this way. After all, I have expanded testing in all versions of C6. However, it may be you that has the advantage, because I have never owned any Corvette. My driving background is with Euro roadsters and honestly, the C6 is the first (and only) US and/or GM car that I would even consider owning.

Question: Over extended periods of time, with suspensions like F55, do you think they'll be a drastic difference? My thinking is that the best refined C6 might not be light years away from the MB SL series. (Maybe hope is a better description.)

I think "cynical" is probably the angle here.

I certainly hope you're wrong and duly digest your insight here, but GM likely has F55 right or will have this perfected very soon. (Besides, these are warranty items, unlike the greatest contributing aspect of Z51 - those tires.)

If you've read the above MotorTrend article (and there are others - lots), you should have revisited this by now.

Even Michael Schumacher cannot repave potholes as he commutes through town. He cannot dictate unpredictable public road conditions nearly as effectively as he can manuever his superior car around other "skilled" drivers in racetrack conditions. In fact, he'd better be doubly careful when he's on public roads that he doesn't forget where he's at and presume he has more control (trust of other drivers) than he ever really does.

There was a time when many didn't think that air conditioning was anymore than a fad.. They said, "self, why not just roll down the windows, not be so lazy, and benefit from the couple extra horsepower?"

But in time things change and become standard. Automotive technology, certainly for GM, is moving in this direction with things like F55.

There are many universal impressions on this subject, again, published by major automotive trusted sources. MotorTrend, Car&Driver, Road&Track are amongst them.

There is an expression in the legal world about a "preponderance of the evidence.”

By-and-large, I think this applies here, respectfully.

Great discussion.

Use your night glare mirror option. I am not fully optioned to do this on my end. Just too many constraints. :lol:

Road conditions on the track are much safer and more controlled than the public streets so that should tell you something right there that these are 2 different suspensions for 2 different purposes. The differences are going to come down to what the driver of the vehicle wants or prefers to have a comfortable ride with added safety features that is always in the ready mode or a ricky the racer type who loves to wear out those tires and buy new ones every week. Not compatible. Also if this turns out to be another gimicky gizmo as in the past can the F-55 be turned off and regular shocks be used so that the car is still operational without this failed gimick option if it turns out to be just that a fad. :cheers:

What? I know you're kidding, but I'm not following you here.

Simply go in and "edit" the font size.

Is there something limiting you from doing this?

:nono: :U :lolg: :lolg:

LS Won:

I'm not at all following you. (Really.)

I don't get your drift. Why all the animations? Why not just edit the font size?

Likewise. It's fun to debate without having to resort to name-calling and other ad homs.

Hm. I'd say you'd need to ride with me through traffic, over twisty back roads, etc, before making the claim that it's my perception. You might be right, but I have my doubts.

Touche'. I did read MT's write-up but apparently it didn't stick with me. I'll make you a deal: let's wait a few months (or more) and we'll see if Motor Trend, Car and Driver, etc, all have the same opinion of F55 that they do now. As I've already stated, this is a pattern that the magazines have all followed: they sing praises about the new suspension choices from GM on the Corvette when they first get their paws around the wheel. Months later, they recant and say something like, "Give us the Z51!"

So we'll see. I have my doubts. Cynical as I may be.

I again suggest that you ride with me first before you use Hill's and Neal's statements to counter my claims. :-) It's a pointless argument, really. I think we're arguing past one another.

I'm not quite sure I can parse your question correctly. I'm trying to understand what you mean by "Over extended periods of time, with suspensions like the F55..." Perhaps my parser isn't quite working yet this morning; can you restate?

I suspect given the stiff underpinnings of the Corvette (ie, the frame rails and the ladder,) it could easily reach suspension refinements near to something like a Merc.

Well, they've been working on it since the late 80s. :-) So one hopes that they do eventually get it right.

Ah, I wasn't implying that the suspension would break when I called it "trash." Just that it wouldn't perform when needed or wanted.


Troglodytes of the world, unite!

I don't question that statement in the least. But they'd be wise to continue to offer a stiffer, more handling-oriented (vs. comfort oriented) suspension for those of us who call ourselves track dogs.

And respectfully, I'll stick with my cynicism until I'm satisfactorily proven otherwise.

jas

:iagree: They are two both different suspensions that you cannot compare to one another they have different functions and are not alike. Keep it simple as you are making this more difficult as it is pretty clear cut that it is not a F-55 Vs. Z-51 situation. :cheers:

Thanks guys for the interesting and entertaining discussion. I'm with JVP/jas on this one and I don't even know what I'm talking about. :cheers:

I do know in cycling that an aluminum frame is stiff and hard as a rock. On top of that, I put 120 PSI in my tires, I love it. The reason is that I feel far more connected with the feel of the road. I can feel whether it's surface rough vs smooth and as a result, I can easily translate that into not only how much drag or traction the surface will provide but how well my tires will stick when cornering.

I would have to believe that the F55 suspension will take some of that connection and direct feedback with the road away. I also don't agree that you need to be on a track to fully enjoy the benefit of the Z51 suspension.

Give me those Colorado mountain curves! In then end, we will all get to vote in the form of what we ultimately order. I'm looking forward to seeing the numbers of base vs F55 vs Z51 in terms of actual sales.

Dana

If you are not racing or autocrossing, get the F55 (new and refined for '05). The F51 is much stiffer and you may not like the ride over the long term. One of the trainers at GM Certification actually said the F55 is the smart buy unless you are really hardcore. By the way, yes you'll give up some gear ratio in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th gear compared to the Z51 manual trans. As far as sales, I'd bet the F55 outsells F51.

It just depends on the conditions of your roads and remember as your car ages the suspension will loosen up a bit so will the Z-51 get even stiffer with age or looser or put it this way will the ride deteroriate as it ages faster than the base suspension or the F-55.

Precisely.

Of course, many Z51 buyers are not track guys at all.

Its like Dave Hill said, they like the "cool looking rotors." ;)

Kind of doubt this, though,

Z51 has the stereotypical Corvette "go-fast" emotional buyers in a feeding frenzy right now. GM knows exactly what buttons to push to get these types running up full of excitement and check in hand.

F55 was never targeted to be a better seller than the other packages. In fact, its beauty is that it appeals to the more refined, sofisticated and more technologically demanding owner that is apart from the median of typical Corvette buyers. F55, especially with the new A6 transmission coming, is ringing the dinner bell for even the most discerning Euro roadster enthusiast.

Z51's dedicated sport-tuned (racetrack ready) package caters to the impulsive buyer, not one insistent on maximum, modern diversification like F55. The former has many examples. The latter has almost none.

Yeah, I'll bet. That's exactly what discerning buyers want to avoid.

That's a function of tires. You can always put the F1 tires on F55 too, if one actually wanted to.

The use of "benefit" then is only relevant to the particular person. But ALL those Z51 components (brakes, coolers, etc) will not come into play on the road. Therefore, what one is left with is a stiffer suspension and tighter grip (most attributable to its tires). The biggest difference will be the former, which is unecessary to tolerate for predominant street driving. The latter is too subtle to justify the option, especially as these WILL wearout faster. F55 in sport mode through the streets would also offer a stiffer, tighter ride too, if someone, somehow was inclined to actually desire this. (I would be in tour mode through town.)

As far as what you would "agree" upon, to separate your impressions from those of its designers and extensive testers (comparing all packages together), all you would be doing is holding out for your own impressions, once fully experimented with, and taking a viewpoint. I would venture to guess that if both packages were fitted with the same tires (and F55 in sport mode), you would be hard-pressed to tell the difference.

Again, the thinking behind F55 was NEVER to top sales of base or Z51. The former has the simplier buyer in mind, while the latter has the impulsive. F55 is not targeted toward either of those buyers. F55 appeals to technical enthusiasts who demand diversification for comfort and spirited driving in the same car, and is will and capable of paying for it.

Yeah, I'll bet. That's exactly what discerning buyers want to avoid.

That's a function of tires. You can always put the F1 tires on F55 too, if one actually wanted to.

The use of "benefit" then is only relevant to the particular person. But ALL those Z51 components (brakes, coolers, etc) will not come into play on the road. Therefore, what one is left with is a stiffer suspension and tighter grip (most attributable to its tires). The biggest difference will be the former, which is unecessary to tolerate for predominant street driving. The latter is too subtle to justify the option, especially as these WILL wearout faster. F55 in sport mode through the streets would also offer a stiffer, tighter ride too, if someone, somehow was inclined to actually desire this. (I would be in tour mode through town.)

As far as what you would "agree" upon, to separate your impressions from those of its designers and extensive testers (comparing all packages together), all you would be doing is holding out for your own impressions, once fully experimented with, and taking a viewpoint. I would venture to guess that if both packages were fitted with the same tires (and F55 in sport mode), you would be hard-pressed to tell the difference.

Again, the thinking behind F55 was NEVER to top sales of base or Z51. The former has the simplier buyer in mind, while the latter has the impulsive. F55 is not targeted toward either of those buyers. F55 appeals to technical enthusiasts who demand diversification for comfort and spirited driving in the same car, and is willing and capable of paying for it.

You've gotta deal! ;)

Meaning, I am going to hope that F55 provides me riding characteritics not too distant from my driving experience with SL's, BMW's, Aston Martin's, etc., even over an extended driving life with the car. I'm hoping that beyond my early impressions, that your perspective of the technology actually not providing what it claims over the three years I'll own this car does not materialize. I understand that asking any Corvette to feel like a $100K+ Euro roadster for driving comfort is a bit much, but I'm hoping F55 gets me close enough to suffice over those three years.

My question to you was, do you think I'll be dissappointed and find F55 failing to maintain ride comfort (compared to the SL's) over those three years of time?

It seems your argument was based upon a notion that the system could fail, and/or not deliver what it claims. However, given it does not fail, and is actually working like it should, will this still be asking too much to expect near MB SL ride comfort?

SL's are super smooth yet handle crisp and sure.

(I'm presuming you've owned or driven a few different cars over your lifetime.)

No danger there.

They will surely continue to offer fixed sport-tuned suspensions for "track dogs." Morever, that's my point; Z51 is a 'track dog' package that gains sales from predominant street drivers too, whom try and justify (forcefit) the package for themselves. They like how "cool" the rotors look and enjoy the thrill of knowing they have the "go-fast" components onboard, even if finding convincing arguments to support the actual use of said components alludes them. IMO :D

How can you compare a comfort suspension to a handling package suspension? :smash:

The point of F55 is that it offers both.

Yes it does but is more road / street ready as previously said a thinking mans suspension to counter those surprises you get on the public streets and the most comfortable to smooth out the ride over bumpy torn up roads. The Z-51 would be a beat up suspension when encountering the same types of poorly maintained roads.

I've went back and forth on the question for months now. To day my salesman called to finalize my order so it can go in next week and I finally decided to go with the F55. The reason being that I like to use my Corvettes for road trips. With the 98 and 01 both having the base suspension I could drive 800 miles in a day and not feel fatigued. No soreness in the back or anything like that. With Z06 and the 03 with Z51 I have now it's a different story. After a few hundred mile my lower is getting sore and I've had enough for the day. I think the F55 in touring mode will give a very enjoyable ride for the long drives. Then there will be the sport mode when I want something different.

:iagree: I did the very same thing for the exact same reasons I just wanted to get the best ride possible in a corvette without problems to my back or neck and this makes more sense as this suspension has a much wider usage appeal. :cheers:

Have you noticed any whining with your suspension??

My argument is more based on the sense of novelty wearing off, rather than the technology wearing out. I don't think the technology in the car will age and stop delivering over time. I do suspect (here's the cynic in me..) that owners and magazine writers will come to realize that the F55 is, once again, snake oil, and flock to the Z51

Maybe not.

I have driven a few others, but not nearly enough to get a real sense of their handling characteristics. Test drives aren't enough.

jas

About how much difference would be between the two suspension in their lap times at a track like the Ring? :)

I haven't been to the track to test, but have irrefutable evidence that the C6 F55 suspension is better than my previous 2 C5s (base and Z51)....my girlfriend hated both C5s b/c they made her carsick and actually refused to ride in Z51 (too rough)....over 2000 miles on C6 (most of which on hwy at speed), and now she's wanting to borrow it to go shopping w/ a friend....damn, should've gone with the Z51 ;) ;)

please, no C5 vs C6 flames ( or arguments about the definition of better)....this is all in good humor

That being said, I am really impressed with the ride of the C6....found myself flinching many times when I first got it waiting for the kidney punches that never came....good job GM :thumbs:

:iagree: Let me tell you stiff suspensions get old after awhile in more ways than one and so do we eventually you will get tired of that stiff ride. I have The suspension that I have on my current ride is much stiffer than ANY Z-51 could ever be so to me it gets old real fast. Nothing wrong going with the comfort and having the best of both worlds. You will appreciate it much much longer. :cheers:

Wow, what an inquiry. :)

Guess you'd have to speak with the VERY few who have tested BOTH packages at such an exclusive and priviledged track like this one. I suppose there will be very few (none actually) that can definitively answer this with any authenticity of personal experience.

But remember, even in track situations where Z51 can make full utilization of its track-oriented components, the true chief ingredient is the F1 supercar tire. Base and F55 C6's would be at a real disadvantage starting from the rubber alone, even if the suspensions were otherwise identical.

What would truly be a much closer (still not exact) apples to apples test of the two suspensions in track conditions would be to have each car with the same tire.

Then at least a better illustration of the suspensions could be measured. But with F55 being limited to a run-flat tire while Z51 gets a near racing tire, this is like gauging two Olympic runners head-to-head while one of the two is wearing a comfort loafer and the other has Nike track sneakers. Until the same tire is put on BOTH cars, these comparison aspects are hindered, falsely allowing people to think that the Z51 has these "slighty faster turn-ins" (MotorTrend) because of its suspension, when in fact, the tires are doing most of the talking.

If F55 swapped tires with Z51, much of Z51's slight cornering advantages would fade due to being reduced to run-flats, while F55 would have those supercar tires to add real harmony to its diligently stable (sport mode) characteristics.

Never lose sight of the fact that Z51 has a completely superior tire which accounts for MOST of its advantages (on the track), though they be slight over F55.

{From Dave Hill and Mike Neal: "The C6 Z51 option includes higher-rate springs, higher-rate antiroll bars and larger-diameter, more stiffly-valved shocks. All those items help make the Z51 more of an aggressive driver's car, however, the biggest contributor to the revised Z51's, almost-a-Z06-handling, is the new Goodyear F1 Supercar EMT tire."}

Precisely!

The fact that these same magazines (like MotorTrend, Car&Driver, etc) have said things like "The performance mode (of F55) ensures flat cornering no matter what the speed. In a way, the MSR system inspires a bit more confidence (than Z51) when pushing the car hard around the track — it prevents the body from becoming unsettled when the suspension loads and unloads over undulating surfaces," even while the F55 is burdened by run-flats (compared to Z51's F1 tires), is a strong testament and glowing endorsement of F55.

Give F55 those tires? Now we'd see those accolades really shine!

Besides, this response is strictly limited to "the Ring," where NOBODY drives!

In the real world of public roads with enforced driving situations, the dual mode of F55 really stands out because it does not dictate a (fixed) suspension aspect forcing a choice; nothing about F55's intent could not be addressed at the turn of a switch on the fly. This all makes for a greater, more diversified, more comfortable (overall) Corvette driving experience as one should expect of a "new, next generation Corvette," to where tests at "The Ring" play such a limited role.

I'll further that with a slight change to your location: a slolom course. Take both cars, shod them with the same rubber (either the F1 runflats from the Z51 or the standard tires from the F55.) Now run these cars down the slolom course a couple of times each and see which one does better.

My guess is that the Z51 will still do better. The stiffer suspension components (especially the roll bars) are going to keep the car flatter in side-to-side transitions.

:iagree: Now you have made it a better comparasion by making the tires the same and the usage the same so it still comes down to which system will be better in street driving and which will be in track so it comes up the same as previously mentioned street F-55 and track Z-51 but it is soley up to the driver as to what the car will be used for and I would believe that the majority of these cars will be used for double duty street and track so there you go. Just pick and choose and I am sure there are those who will cross both lines and do modifications with their F-55 suspensions. Then again why would you want to use racing tires driving in the street when it is raining unless you have control of the weather and all situations?????:cheers:

Dave Hill must know the answer.........

My guess is that it should be AT LEAST a 5 second difference........Maybe that is a bit conservative.......

5 seconds is that a big difference between a smooth ride and a rougher ride and a car with all wheels planted to the ground as opposed to the Corvette that is airborne Z-51...one car off the road into the weeds and the other car on it way...Lets give Dave a call and find out Jason at the factory probably wouldn't have the answer to this question. :thumbs:

F55 proponents claiming that the only thing that makes a Z51 package work is the tires, is mildly amusing!
The tires are part of the engineered package. All the components working together give the desired result. It aint just the tires :rolleyes:

If F55 performed as well or better than the Z51 by adding the F1 tires, why wouldnt GM have simply gone that route? Right....thats what I thought :nono:

Z51 shines in many areas, F55 shines in many others. Some overlap maybe. But not enough overlap, otherwise you wouldnt have been given the choice of suspensions.

What's amusing is that people can come into the thread and either forget what they've just read, or worse, not truly read the statements at all besides picking and choosing a few lines here and there that did not agree with them.

You need to go back and actually read (or reread) the quotes from the article, where the statements you protest are those of Dave Hill, Mike Neal and the rest of the Corvette team. You see, those were their words!

Again, some more careful reading would service you here.

While the tires came with the package, this does not change the fact that its the tires that are the most responsible ingredient for the slight track advantages. No one said that this was due only to the tires. The statement is that it is mostly due to the tires, which it certainly is. (If you cannot comprehend the drastic differences between supercar tires against that of run-flats, then you lack the background to have an informed discussion on the matter.) As it is, you're already missing rather clear and authenticated statements right in front of you.

Seems you're not thinking too well.

The whole idea behind Z51 was to service the parttime 'track time' guys who did not mind the compromise on the street to have it. The whole idea behind F55 was to have an all-around diversified package (including the tires) that would be flexible predominantly and only firm when asked. The run-flat has to service this driver, as there is no spare tire, of course. Z51 caters to a different, "go-fast and look cool" or else mentality. Z51, for all components, (by most tests) gets only "slightly better turn-ins" compared to F55 which provides more "confidence." (MotorTrend, Car&Driver, etc.)

Its all about simple marketing.

Z51 was designed to fufill the track time needs of those who desire it, while picking up added sales from the "go-fast" stereotypical Corvette buyer who likes the thrill of knowing they have all the toys (especially those "cool-looking rotors," as joked by Dave Hill) when they sport around looking for people to race with, etc. (Funny how many of these same types ridicule the "boy-toy ricers" for the same mentality.)

F55 caters to an entirely different mentality which prefers diversity and engineering that is embraced as "a thinking man's" alternative. (MotorTrend.)

If you're missing ALL THIS, a discussion here will not penetrate your thinking.

Thanks for taking me through a well thought out, non-partisan dialogue on the suspension options. I chose the F55 for all the reasons you described and looking forward to it. Any thoughts on what the next gen Z06 might have in store as an upgrade to the current options? That might be an interesting glimpse into tomorrows technology.... Thanks again.

[QUOTE=c2jones]What's amusing is that people can come into the thread and either forget what they've just read, or worse, not truly read the statements at all besides picking and choosing a few lines here and there that did not agree with them.

But isn't that the reason we have computers for to do everything for us and make life easier? :lol:

It is the driver that makes the real difference. :cheers:

:iagree: Same here same decision. :yesnod:

Hmmmm........a little bit of a personal attack on ones reading & thinking abilities?
Loosen your undies, keep it civil, and take a :chill:

In the case of the Porsche 997S the difference between the one with PASM (Set in Sport Setting) and the Non-PASM Sport Suspension is 3 seconds faster.......

So in the case of the C6 Z51 with the addition of the better tires along with the stiffer suspension the difference must be more than 3 seconds..... :)

And your "mildly amusing" dig was not in this vein? (Be honest.) ;)

If I came on too strong, I do apologize. It is never an intent to personally attack anyone (unless I'm attacked). My average day is spent working with top business tycoons and their lawyers. Many of my closest associates and business partners are top firm lawyers and the straight-up, direct, to-the-point mentality sometimes has difficulty separating business from this forum.

All is good. :)

No, I wasnt going that direction with the that first line. I read enough comments on the tire thing, it just made me smile, it was so simplistic. Thats all :sadangel:

Yeah, I know where your coming from, on the business dealings & attitudes.

No problem, I think youre right on target with about 85% of your post anyway.

:cheers: Peace

Get them before they get you... :rofl:

This is really what it comes down to. Having the Z51 on my 00, and having changed the tires and shocks to make it more forgiving on those public roads, I think I will be ordering the F55 on my C6. The technology is just too good to pass up.

Tires can be changed, as can rotors and sway bars. Hell I upgraded both my brakes and sway bars on my 00, even with having ordered the Z51 option.

:iagree: The tech is getting better these small blocks outperform the bigblocks of yesteryear in every category. Did you mod your Z-51 cause the ride was too harsh? :cheers: