I am very well aware that the info was already posted.

I am not a lawyer, so I am not making a determination of the legalities of GM's policy.

I am saying that if you have warranty concerns and taking GM's stated stance on aftermarket tuning into consideration, that perhaps you shouldn't tune your car.

If someone were to be denied warranty coverage over this and decides to take GM to court, their chances are not going to be very good for the reasons I highlighted in the policy I reposted.

I would very much like to see someone bring such a case to court.

Bottom line: if you tune the car and continue to receive warranty coverage because the dealer never bothered to follow GM's policy, then consider yourself lucky. Conversely, if get your warranty voided, then get a good lawyer and take your chances (that is one's right). IMHO, its not worth the trouble if you care about having a warranty.

 

I, like many others, tuned their C6's before GM's latest addendum to
the warranty. Thus, the loading back of the stock tune and/or replacing the ecm prior to going to the dealer. Since GM made changes to its warranty terms since I bought my car, seems only fair for me and others to make changes to their tunes before going to the dealer.

For people contemplating getting their cars tuned, the pro's and cons are available here to make that decision. I will say that most performance mods do require tuning the car. Thus, its really more of a question of "to mod or not to mod".

 

That's pretty much what I have been saying. My stance is that if one is concerned about voiding warranty, then chances are that person can't afford to be without one so why take the chance if you have an '08 or '09?

 

Thanks for posting that addendum.
I had remember reading about it, so I guess it nulls the preceding warranty memo that stated GM had to prove the added parts were a direct cause of the failure.

Ok so lets look at this: GM just changed the Warranty on us, after we all bought the product.
WHO IS TO STOP THEM FROM SAYING: you now have a 1000$ deductible on your 5/100k warranty?

The only time I had to deal with warranty work was on my stock 06 GTO and it's rear end making noise, and boy, THAT was a PITA!! took 4 trials and 2 dealerships! and the problem was still there on the new rear!. Granted, that is my one time experience with one car, but I wasn't the only one! If it wasn't such a PITA to deal with warranty, then I wouldn't be so irked about the policy change, but, knowing how it has been for me, give me a break! Even on a stock car they give you !@#t !

 

The law states that they must prove that the aftermarket parts have caused the failure. They CAN NOT void your warrantee based solely on aftermarket parts being on the vehicle. It seems that most people do not know their rights or the Moss Magnusson act of 1975.
The link below is more info which can be found on hundreds of websites on the net! The dealers do this to people all the time and since the people are not educated they allow themselves to be cheated in affect.

http://www.impalaclub.com/naisso/magmoss.htm

 

Parts are one thing. A tune is quite another. A tune may have a part number, but it is not a part. Changing the ECM/TCM operating parameters from OEM specs on a street-driven car is not exactly legal.

Mag-Moss is not a law designed to allow you to change the operating specs of your car and maintain your warranty. If GM were requiring you to use only their service department or only using AC Delco air and oil filters, etc. then they would be violating the Mag-Moss Act.

Additionally, they can't deny coverage on your radio because you have a supercharger on the car.

It's pretty hard to argue a bad or poor aftermarket tune didn't cause a driveline part to fail. Why do you think GM is offering a 5yr/100,000 mile warranty on the powertrain and only 3yr/36,000 miles bumper to bumper?

If you add LT headers (not street legal) or retune the ECM/TCM (also a violation of the Clean Air Act unless the tune is CARB approved) its pretty hard to go into a court of law if GM voids your powertrain warranty for having those types of mods on your car and say the tune didn't contribute to your piston exploding or you tranny getting trashed. It very well might not have anything to do with the tune, but you'll pay thousands of dollars to a lawyer to force GM to "prove it".

You can scream Mag-Moss until the cows come home. Chances are, you will lose. BTW, I don't see SEMA getting up in arms over GM's crackdown on aftermarket tunes......

 

I see you are trying to play lawyer again, while you admitted before us that you are not a lawyer. You sure seem to like to play Perry Mason here, saying Mag-Moss is not a law that that allows tunes.

If I buy a ECM from a tuner that comes with a pre-installed tune by that tuner, it sure seems to me that could be construed as an after market part just as much as you seem to deny that.

You should say, "why take a chance on a 2010?" GM just posted this addenum in May I think, so 2008's and 2009's were made before May '09.

 

The point of the law remains in order to void your warrantee for a repair requires the manufacturer to prove you changed something whether it is a part or a tune that was the CAUSE of the failure.

 

Guys, in the end, it always comes down to your relationship with your dealer. Even if you have a good relationship, if you have a major component failure, it'll likely be out of their hands. If GM doesn't feel the part failed under normal circumstances, there is little you can say which will scare them into caving. For all intents and purposes, they ARE professionals in the auto repair industry and if their stance is a component was stressed by YOUR doing, the burden of proof falls to you to prove their OPINION incorrect. Who here has money to sue GM? It'll most likely be cheaper to fix your car yourself even if you win your case, and they know it.

You can argue who is right until the end of time. Just remember that when the chips are down you may be doing more walking than arguing. My advise, be prepared in any event.

 

Sage advice

I don't have to be a lawyer to understand the intent behind the Mag-Moss Act. It doesn't allow someone to tamper with the ECU with impunity, that much I know for certain

Just because the Clean Air Act is loosely enforced in most states doesn't mean its legal to ignore it.

 

I respectfully disagree with some of your points. Below is a quote from someone from a previous tune vs. warranty thread. He made some very good points, most of which I personally agree with.

"GM does calibrate their vehicles, with specific parameters and power goals in mind. To that end there is sometimes power is "left on the table". Also once a vehicle has been modified outside of its factory parameters, it is necessary to modify the vehicles tune to compensate for those changes. This is no different than re-jetting a carb back in the day, or adjusting the advance on a distributor.

As an example, the stock tune on my '02 Z06 is about as good as its going to get from the factory with the car all stock. You can eek out just a few hp by leaning out the mixture, adding timing, etc. but all in all it shows almost no real gain in the car but may improve drivability. Now, should one add headers to the car, (for example) they would have to re-tune the car to properly set the A/F ratio. Even if they did nothing else to timing, etc... the A/F is going to be off without a tune.

The main point is that re-tuning a PCM is not some evil act, and the factory GM tune is not a holy thing that must be bowed before in reverence and never spoken of. Its simply operating data plain and simple. Does it have a lot of R&D time? Absolutely it does. And my hat is off to the power train engineers and code guys who slave away at vehicle calibration. Its a hard job.

Would it surprise many of you to know that some of the very same guys who were doing vehicle calibration for GM now work in the aftermarket designing the tools we use to re-calibrate vehicles?

Like anything else, a poorly installed physical part can cause an issue. Lets say you have a clutch installed, and the bolts aren't tightened, it comes loose, and explodes in the car. That’s a problem. In the same way a tune which send your A/F ratio to 15:1 and jacks the timing up to 40 degrees and causes you to pop your motor is a problem.

The point here is that a properly done tune in and of itself is not a bad thing. GM leaves some power on the table, you are just making use of it. The key thing here is everything in moderation, and IMHO, being educated about who you allow to touch your car. Plain and simple tuning isn't bad... Bad tuning is bad."

 

^ I was trying to drive that point as well, but that did it better (I think).
I still think GM should have to prove that the tune is the cause of the failure. You can modify a tune without making the car not CARB compliant anymore. For instance, you can spend a few hours calibrating your maf, can adjust the timing tables for better dirveability etc, at the end, emissions will be the same, you may gain a couple hp, you will gain better driveability and sure as heck won't damage anything (if you know what you are doing, that goes for any hot-roding though).

I think that if we were back in the days, GM stating that the cause of your transmission failure is due to you re-jeting the carb and adding a high performance curve kit to your distributor would have cause a few laughs and a few law suites, or a very bad rep amongst the automotive crowd. Rest assured that a friend of mine that grew up in the 60's said to me they were as bad back then as they are today: he almost got his warranty yanked out on his corvette for running aftermakert plug wires....that were GM high perf wire...sold to him over the counter by that same dealer...funny stuff I tell ya!

 

Even to take this a step further there are plenty of other adjustments that can be done that would have no effect at all on emissions or increase power or stress on the drivetrain. Lets say you lower the speed limiter for a teen driver or change the speedometer calibration for a slightly different tire size. The tech 2 just knows that your calibration is stock or not so these type of things would get your warranty denied.

 

^ great examples. CGAS elimination is another.

 

You guys are refusing to see the big picture. Nobody is disputing that a good tune is a good tune or that parts fail on any car, yada, yada, yada.

The point is, an actual failure may not be your fault at all, but you accept all responsibilty once you tamper with something.

Example: Haven't you ever tried to fix or "improve" something that had a seal over a screw, and you knew once you cracked that seal, there's no returning it. You had to decide whether it's worth the risk.

The only difference here is now you're talking about thousands of dollars for a repair or replacement, not some $20 clock radio. This is when a persons integrity comes into play. Replacing your modded ECU with a stock one in order to get a free repair is the same as deceptively putting that seal back on the clock radio after you discovered your "fix" didn't help matters.

 

Some people just don't get it. Clearly you do

Once you reprogram that ECM/TCM, if you have a powertrain problem (hopefully you got a good tune and you don't have any problems) its going to be an uphill battle to prove the tune didn't contribute to it. Not trying to discourage anyone from tuning their car, you just have to be ready to accept the fact that GM will most likely void your powertrain warranty if you do.

 

^ no we do get the big picture, trust me!
It's only a matter of time before they really crack down. I doubt the fine prints of the warranty covers anyone that runs any kind of racing event (drag or track), and it's only a matter of time before GM cracks down on that, were basically, even if you are 100% stock down to the tires, but you run your car at the drag strip or track, it'll void the warranty instantly or, they won't cover repairs if they can prove you did it at the track.

One of the point is that "we" bought a supercar, that has alot of hoopla about it, and most everyone recognize how great of a vehicle it is. GM love talking smack about how great the ZR1 is and the Z06's performance are, yet, they act like idiot when it comes to fixing the car.
It's retarded, the car is build for racing, therefore, the warranty behind it should be there, but I guarantee you nothing would be covered if you said "well, I was at the track, and out of turn 4, in 2rd gear at about 6200rpms, the tranny fell out. As you can see I'm 100% stock" the reply would be "sorry, no warranty, you're abusing the car"

The other point is that GM is building a race car for the street, therefore, with the 80k price tag, the warranty "should" cover the car for what it was made to handle. THEY even said the reasons they void warranties for ECM tunes is because it might over stress the parts and they have not tested those parts to that extreme but only to what they "tuned it" too. so again, if you are 100% stock, and blow your scrap up at the track, it "should" be covered, because you are not "exceeding" anything, you are "driving" the car like the GM designer and engineers intended it too. Again, I will bet you a dollar that GM wouldn't cover your butt if you said it happened while racing at the track. If I'm wrong on that, please let me know and show me, but I'm pretty darn sure about it.

So really, what are we suppose to do? buy an 80+k supercar and drive it like a Honda Accord? are those extra coolers and big brakes just for show? 427ci 505 hp just for badge braging? surely GM wouldn't condone racing on the street now would they? because if you aren't allowed to go to a controlled environment to drive the car like it was meant (and actually use those brakes and coolers) then wtf is the point, really!

 

Interesting perspective.

However, let me point out a couple of things:
1. GM is a business
2. The Corvette is a sports car not a race car. One is built for the street, the other for the track.

With those two points in mind, have you ever seen a NASCAR race? Every race, at least one car goes down for a mechanical problem of some sort. That's why they have backup engines and backup cars on the track.

GM built the Z06, ZR1 and the Z51 option in order to help make the Vette race-ready.

It includes pointers on track prep as an assistance to the owner, but the bottom line is, they are NOT going to cover you if something fails on you while engaging in competitive driving, nor should they.

GM knows that even a purpose built race car is going to have failures on a track. If you can afford to race the car or mod the car then you should be able to afford to fix what breaks out of pocket.

Here's an interesting thread where Jason from Katech chimed in on this very type of subject:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...post1570499935

In fact, YOU posted in this thread as well. Do you agree with what Jason had to say about GMs policy on aftermarket calibrations?

I am not against anyone modding their car or reprogramming the ECU/TCM or racing their car. But to expect GM to honor your warranty on something they clearly state they will not cover is extremely short-sighted.

You want to play, expect to pay.......

 

Seem that you do agree:

 

no, I was stating a fact which is they will not cover if you have a tune.
Do not confuse me stating a fact and me agreeing to it.