I did the "Search"--Weak Starter?
Thread Starter
2026 Loser of the Year
Joined: Sep 2013
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From: New Or-leens Loo-z-anna
I did the "Search"--Weak Starter?
1968 resto-mod project:
1970 stock 350 engine/155-160 lb. compression
Edelbrock carb (1405) cleaned and adjusted
Automatic trans No engine-power accessories
Timing set to 12* base/vacuum to manifold
Stock exhaust manifolds are nowhere near starter
P.O. installed new starter......
Rebuilt distributor--Great fire to plugs.......
Great fuel supply with engine cold or hot........
Electric choke works correctly.......
New battery.......
New positive cable.....
New negative cable....
New engine/starter/frame grounds....
The starter cranks perfectly when cold---engine starts on first revolution/engine idles great/runs great....
TWO PROBLEMS/: 1. After an hour drive---starter cranks fast about 4 revolutions----then rapidly slows down.......then after 9-10 seconds of cranking it finally starts---
2. Engine will not fire-up unless gas pedal is held to floor once the slow cranking happens....
It does not affect whether distributor is connected to ported or manifold vacuum---
WHAT DID I OVERLOOK (?faulty starter combined with fuel boiling?)
HELP!
1970 stock 350 engine/155-160 lb. compression
Edelbrock carb (1405) cleaned and adjusted
Automatic trans No engine-power accessories
Timing set to 12* base/vacuum to manifold
Stock exhaust manifolds are nowhere near starter
P.O. installed new starter......
Rebuilt distributor--Great fire to plugs.......
Great fuel supply with engine cold or hot........
Electric choke works correctly.......
New battery.......
New positive cable.....
New negative cable....
New engine/starter/frame grounds....
The starter cranks perfectly when cold---engine starts on first revolution/engine idles great/runs great....
TWO PROBLEMS/: 1. After an hour drive---starter cranks fast about 4 revolutions----then rapidly slows down.......then after 9-10 seconds of cranking it finally starts---
2. Engine will not fire-up unless gas pedal is held to floor once the slow cranking happens....
It does not affect whether distributor is connected to ported or manifold vacuum---
WHAT DID I OVERLOOK (?faulty starter combined with fuel boiling?)
HELP!
Last edited by doorgunner; Dec 10, 2014 at 08:31 AM.
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Sounds like you've covered the bases. I would not rule out a bad, new starter solenoid or a bad, new battery. I have experienced both. Some will suggest heat soak and the need for a heat shield for the starter.
Thread Starter
2026 Loser of the Year
Joined: Sep 2013
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Likes: 7,053
From: New Or-leens Loo-z-anna
I'll wrap the starter first to see if it's heat soak....and do a load test while I'm there.
I'll post those results later.
Thread Starter
2026 Loser of the Year
Joined: Sep 2013
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From: New Or-leens Loo-z-anna
The battery is 4 months old (but that doesn't mean a lot now-a-daze...LOL)
If it is defective, I think I'll get one that fills the battery compartment COMPLETELY!
BY THE WAY.....I JUST LOOKED AT THE REAR SUSPENSION (driver's side is 1" low---I adjusted the bolt length to no avail)---THE MAIN LEAF IS BENDING ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE WHERE THE SPRING-BOLT GOES THROUGH--
WHO SELLS THE MAIN LEAF (ONLY)?
If it is defective, I think I'll get one that fills the battery compartment COMPLETELY!
BY THE WAY.....I JUST LOOKED AT THE REAR SUSPENSION (driver's side is 1" low---I adjusted the bolt length to no avail)---THE MAIN LEAF IS BENDING ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE WHERE THE SPRING-BOLT GOES THROUGH--
WHO SELLS THE MAIN LEAF (ONLY)?
Last edited by doorgunner; Dec 10, 2014 at 11:41 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,019
Likes: 18
From: St. Louis MO
Check the ground wire. it may be new but that does not mean it is getting good contact. Did it work before you "fixed" everything?
I have a mini starter and it cranks my stroker over nicely.
As far as the spring... just get a new one. I have a nice fiber glass one and it is great.. it is Christmas, great excuse for a self gift!
I have a mini starter and it cranks my stroker over nicely.
As far as the spring... just get a new one. I have a nice fiber glass one and it is great.. it is Christmas, great excuse for a self gift!
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Drifting
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,697
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From: Syracuse NY
Maybe you already answered this, but are you running a stock starter? If so, you are suffering from heat sink. Every chevy V8 Ive owned does it as soon as you add headers. (you say you are running stock exhaust, but how close to the starer are the pipes? ) Its a very common problem that many people spend lots of time over analyzing. The cure is to use a hi-torque mini starter. You can get them from 85- 125 bucks if you shop around.
AND....Edelbrock carbs are notorious for 'cooking' Again, every 'Brock ive ever owned 'cooks' off the fuel bowls as youve stated. (Ive owned 5) The cure is to add a phenolic spacer between the carb and intake. Make sure you ck your hood clearance.
Good luck. You are experiencing 2 very common and easily cured problems. Dont overthink it.
AND....Edelbrock carbs are notorious for 'cooking' Again, every 'Brock ive ever owned 'cooks' off the fuel bowls as youve stated. (Ive owned 5) The cure is to add a phenolic spacer between the carb and intake. Make sure you ck your hood clearance.
Good luck. You are experiencing 2 very common and easily cured problems. Dont overthink it.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,222
Likes: 93
From: shelbyville West Michigan
I would do a voltage drop test while starting it hot.
rule out: bad starter (new could be a poorly rebuilt junk starter), bad battery (again, new but could still be defective)
Check your plugs, is it too rich? starting that quickly cold must be nice and rich, but having to floor it when hot is likely flooding or too rich for some reason. Suspect carb issues, and would even look for a possible vacuum leak when it heats up.
Contrary to a previous poster, I have never encountered heat soak starter issues on a small block, even with headers. Every supposed heat soak issue I have seen turned out to be defective starter and/or wiring. Also never seen fuel boil (but I am in MI), except when someone re-plumbed a factor line too close to exhaust.
rule out: bad starter (new could be a poorly rebuilt junk starter), bad battery (again, new but could still be defective)
Check your plugs, is it too rich? starting that quickly cold must be nice and rich, but having to floor it when hot is likely flooding or too rich for some reason. Suspect carb issues, and would even look for a possible vacuum leak when it heats up.
Contrary to a previous poster, I have never encountered heat soak starter issues on a small block, even with headers. Every supposed heat soak issue I have seen turned out to be defective starter and/or wiring. Also never seen fuel boil (but I am in MI), except when someone re-plumbed a factor line too close to exhaust.
Racer
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 334
Likes: 6
Seems to be a lot of "starting" threads lately!
You've definitely put some effort into it already, and good posts so far, so I'll only ask/add:
1) This car is recently put together? (awesome job if it is the thread I am thinking of) or have these problems just started after months of driving it?
2) What is your starting technique for "hot-ish" starts? (Sounds like your cold start technique works great)
3) the starter slowing down thing, that does sound like it could be electrical or starter issue. (But can also be both elect/starter AND gas/carb issues going on.)
4) like mentioned by gungatim, I have no issues with heat soak with headers.
Good luck and keep us posted!
You've definitely put some effort into it already, and good posts so far, so I'll only ask/add:
1) This car is recently put together? (awesome job if it is the thread I am thinking of) or have these problems just started after months of driving it?
2) What is your starting technique for "hot-ish" starts? (Sounds like your cold start technique works great)
3) the starter slowing down thing, that does sound like it could be electrical or starter issue. (But can also be both elect/starter AND gas/carb issues going on.)
4) like mentioned by gungatim, I have no issues with heat soak with headers.
Good luck and keep us posted!
Thread Starter
2026 Loser of the Year
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 36,607
Likes: 7,053
From: New Or-leens Loo-z-anna
Check the ground wire. it may be new but that does not mean it is getting good contact. Did it work before you "fixed" everything?
I have a mini starter and it cranks my stroker over nicely.
As far as the spring... just get a new one. I have a nice fiber glass one and it is great.. it is Christmas, great excuse for a self gift!
I have a mini starter and it cranks my stroker over nicely.
As far as the spring... just get a new one. I have a nice fiber glass one and it is great.. it is Christmas, great excuse for a self gift!
Maybe you already answered this, but are you running a stock starter? If so, you are suffering from heat sink. Every chevy V8 Ive owned does it as soon as you add headers. (you say you are running stock exhaust, but how close to the starer are the pipes? ) Its a very common problem that many people spend lots of time over analyzing. The cure is to use a hi-torque mini starter. You can get them from 85- 125 bucks if you shop around. The stock starter is 5-6" from the exhaust down-pipe, but I will wrap it anyway
AND....Edelbrock carbs are notorious for 'cooking' Again, every 'Brock ive ever owned 'cooks' off the fuel bowls as youve stated. (Ive owned 5) The cure is to add a phenolic spacer between the carb and intake. Make sure you ck your hood clearance. Now that you guys mention it, my wife complains of gasoline smell after I park the car in the garage (I replaced all lines to the tank/tank seals/charcoal canister is deleted/etc)...I have 2" of hood clearance to work with---and had fuel boil on my '34 truck SBC
Good luck. You are experiencing 2 very common and easily cured problems. Dont overthink it.
AND....Edelbrock carbs are notorious for 'cooking' Again, every 'Brock ive ever owned 'cooks' off the fuel bowls as youve stated. (Ive owned 5) The cure is to add a phenolic spacer between the carb and intake. Make sure you ck your hood clearance. Now that you guys mention it, my wife complains of gasoline smell after I park the car in the garage (I replaced all lines to the tank/tank seals/charcoal canister is deleted/etc)...I have 2" of hood clearance to work with---and had fuel boil on my '34 truck SBC
Good luck. You are experiencing 2 very common and easily cured problems. Dont overthink it.
I would do a voltage drop test while starting it hot. Will do!
rule out: bad starter (new could be a poorly rebuilt junk starter), bad battery (again, new but could still be defective)
Check your plugs, is it too rich? starting that quickly cold must be nice and rich, but having to floor it when hot is likely flooding or too rich for some reason. Suspect carb issues, and would even look for a possible vacuum leak when it heats up. I installed an electric choke months ago/the choke works correctly
Contrary to a previous poster, I have never encountered heat soak starter issues on a small block, even with headers. Every supposed heat soak issue I have seen turned out to be defective starter and/or wiring. Also never seen fuel boil (but I am in MI), except when someone re-plumbed a factor line too close to exhaust.
rule out: bad starter (new could be a poorly rebuilt junk starter), bad battery (again, new but could still be defective)
Check your plugs, is it too rich? starting that quickly cold must be nice and rich, but having to floor it when hot is likely flooding or too rich for some reason. Suspect carb issues, and would even look for a possible vacuum leak when it heats up. I installed an electric choke months ago/the choke works correctly
Contrary to a previous poster, I have never encountered heat soak starter issues on a small block, even with headers. Every supposed heat soak issue I have seen turned out to be defective starter and/or wiring. Also never seen fuel boil (but I am in MI), except when someone re-plumbed a factor line too close to exhaust.
Seems to be a lot of "starting" threads lately!
You've definitely put some effort into it already, and good posts so far, so I'll only ask/add:
1) This car is recently put together? (awesome job if it is the thread I am thinking of) or have these problems just started after months of driving it? I've recently gotten everything safe enough for the highway and have worked out cooling problems/now starting problems
2) What is your starting technique for "hot-ish" starts? (Sounds like your cold start technique works great) Cold starts=turn key=fires up! Hot starts=will not start turning key/will not start pressing pedal once and turning key/will not start pressing pedal halfway and turning key/will start only with pedal to floor and turning key
3) the starter slowing down thing, that does sound like it could be electrical or starter issue. (But can also be both elect/starter AND gas/carb issues going on.) Ain't that the truth...I will try to eliminate the simplest things first.
4) like mentioned by gungatim, I have no issues with heat soak with headers.
Good luck and keep us posted!
You've definitely put some effort into it already, and good posts so far, so I'll only ask/add:
1) This car is recently put together? (awesome job if it is the thread I am thinking of) or have these problems just started after months of driving it? I've recently gotten everything safe enough for the highway and have worked out cooling problems/now starting problems
2) What is your starting technique for "hot-ish" starts? (Sounds like your cold start technique works great) Cold starts=turn key=fires up! Hot starts=will not start turning key/will not start pressing pedal once and turning key/will not start pressing pedal halfway and turning key/will start only with pedal to floor and turning key
3) the starter slowing down thing, that does sound like it could be electrical or starter issue. (But can also be both elect/starter AND gas/carb issues going on.) Ain't that the truth...I will try to eliminate the simplest things first.
4) like mentioned by gungatim, I have no issues with heat soak with headers.
Good luck and keep us posted!
EDIT: I AM SENDING THIS REPLY TO MY PRINTER SO I CAN HAVE A COPY TO CHECK OFF THE REPAIRS AS I COMPLETE THEM.
AND....I STILL NEED THE NAME OF A VENDOR WHO SELLS '68 VERT MAIN LEAF (ONLY)....thanks
Last edited by doorgunner; Dec 10, 2014 at 10:12 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,192
Likes: 344
From: Allenton Wisconsin
Hi DG, rear spring-- you could just try doing a 180 with the spring. A friend had his spring out, didn't mark it, put it in and had your problem. I told him to reverse it, problem solved and that was years ago. Or find a local spring shop, take the spring to them and have them make up a new main leaf. Alternator specs are 13.6vdc to 14.2vdc , are you still using the external regulator alt? Did you clean the frame where the neg calbe bolts to? T
Thread Starter
2026 Loser of the Year
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 36,607
Likes: 7,053
From: New Or-leens Loo-z-anna
Hi DG, rear spring-- you could just try doing a 180 with the spring. A friend had his spring out, didn't mark it, put it in and had your problem. I told him to reverse it, problem solved and that was years ago. Or find a local spring shop, take the spring to them and have them make up a new main leaf. Alternator specs are 13.6vdc to 14.2vdc , are you still using the external regulator alt? Did you clean the frame where the neg calbe bolts to? T
Cancel the order for the main leaf.....I may as well learn to make one!
I bought a piece of spring steel the correct length and cut the angles on the ends......
I drilled the center hole and the bushing hole.....
I finally got back to the main leaf project and finished drilling the bushing hole on the other end of the leaf......now it's ready to install/hopefully tomorrow........
Every now and then something actually goes almost as planned!
About the alternator......months ago I upgraded to a 130 amp internal regulator alternator because the last owner installed an electric radiator fan...I added the separate electric fan just for the engine....I haven't done any problem solving because of the spring/A.D.D./LOL.......and I have to go out of town for a wedding. I did run a dedicated ground to the alt. case/it's making 13.4-14.5 volts/does a great job of maintaining the battery. Maybe this weekend after I install the "new" main leaf I'll work on the starter drag. I did a 3 hour test-drive trip yesterday afternoon.....except for the starter drag everything went well. The project now has about 30 hours of driving time on it since it received the State Inspection sticker to qualify for being roadworthy.
Last edited by doorgunner; Dec 12, 2014 at 08:17 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,487
Likes: 83
From: Titusville Florida
I 've got some good news for you/with pics.....I copied it from my thread.......first, the main spring......
Cancel the order for the main leaf.....I may as well learn to make one!
I bought a piece of spring steel the correct length and cut the angles on the ends......
I drilled the center hole and the bushing hole.....
I finally got back to the main leaf project and finished drilling the bushing hole on the other end of the leaf......now it's ready to install/hopefully tomorrow........
Every now and then something actually goes almost as planned!
About the alternator......months ago I upgraded to a 130 amp internal regulator alternator because the last owner installed an electric radiator fan...I added the separate electric fan just for the engine....I haven't done any problem solving because of the spring/A.D.D./LOL.......and I have to go out of town for a wedding. I did run a dedicated ground to the alt. case/it's making 13.4-14.5 volts/does a great job of maintaining the battery. Maybe this weekend after I install the "new" main leaf I'll work on the starter drag. I did a 3 hour test-drive trip yesterday afternoon.....except for the starter drag everything went well. The project now has about 30 hours of driving time on it since it received the State Inspection sticker to qualify for being roadworthy.
Cancel the order for the main leaf.....I may as well learn to make one!
I bought a piece of spring steel the correct length and cut the angles on the ends......
I drilled the center hole and the bushing hole.....
I finally got back to the main leaf project and finished drilling the bushing hole on the other end of the leaf......now it's ready to install/hopefully tomorrow........
Every now and then something actually goes almost as planned!
About the alternator......months ago I upgraded to a 130 amp internal regulator alternator because the last owner installed an electric radiator fan...I added the separate electric fan just for the engine....I haven't done any problem solving because of the spring/A.D.D./LOL.......and I have to go out of town for a wedding. I did run a dedicated ground to the alt. case/it's making 13.4-14.5 volts/does a great job of maintaining the battery. Maybe this weekend after I install the "new" main leaf I'll work on the starter drag. I did a 3 hour test-drive trip yesterday afternoon.....except for the starter drag everything went well. The project now has about 30 hours of driving time on it since it received the State Inspection sticker to qualify for being roadworthy.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,717
Likes: 121
From: Sulphur LA
St. Jude Donor '05-'06,'11,'13-'14,'16,'18,'19,'24, '25
The battery is 4 months old (but that doesn't mean a lot now-a-daze...LOL)
If it is defective, I think I'll get one that fills the battery compartment COMPLETELY!
BY THE WAY.....I JUST LOOKED AT THE REAR SUSPENSION (driver's side is 1" low---I adjusted the bolt length to no avail)---THE MAIN LEAF IS BENDING ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE WHERE THE SPRING-BOLT GOES THROUGH--
WHO SELLS THE MAIN LEAF (ONLY)?
If it is defective, I think I'll get one that fills the battery compartment COMPLETELY!
BY THE WAY.....I JUST LOOKED AT THE REAR SUSPENSION (driver's side is 1" low---I adjusted the bolt length to no avail)---THE MAIN LEAF IS BENDING ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE WHERE THE SPRING-BOLT GOES THROUGH--
WHO SELLS THE MAIN LEAF (ONLY)?
Check around to see if you have a shop local to you.
Neal
DIdn't read the entire thread before hitting the reply button, I see you got this worked out,
Last edited by chevymans 77; Dec 12, 2014 at 09:14 AM.
Thread Starter
2026 Loser of the Year
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 36,607
Likes: 7,053
From: New Or-leens Loo-z-anna
I had my spring rebuilt by the local spring shop for around $80, they cleaned it up and arched it for me to get the ride height I wanted. I even had them add a leaf to increase the spring rate.
Check around to see if you have a shop local to you.
Neal
DIdn't read the entire thread before hitting the reply button, I see you got this worked out,
Check around to see if you have a shop local to you.
Neal
DIdn't read the entire thread before hitting the reply button, I see you got this worked out,
Thread Starter
2026 Loser of the Year
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 36,607
Likes: 7,053
From: New Or-leens Loo-z-anna
I had my spring rebuilt by the local spring shop for around $80, they cleaned it up and arched it for me to get the ride height I wanted. I even had them add a leaf to increase the spring rate. Check around to see if you have a shop local to you.
Neal
DIdn't read the entire thread before hitting the reply button, I see you got this worked out,
Neal
DIdn't read the entire thread before hitting the reply button, I see you got this worked out,
Neal......thanks for the extra leaf idea......I took it and ran with it!
Check out "Doorgunner's '68 Convertible Project"!
EDIT: NOW......maybe my A.D.D. is satisfied and I can get back to testing the starter!
Last edited by doorgunner; Dec 13, 2014 at 08:21 AM.
Thread Starter
2026 Loser of the Year
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 36,607
Likes: 7,053
From: New Or-leens Loo-z-anna
The A.D.D. is under control.......back to the "weak starter".....
I followed your suggestions about the carb being part of the problem with flooding.....SOMEHOW
I had the floats set at 5/16" rather than the spec. of 7/16"------annnnd....taking a second look.......the main jets were .100"....
I corrected the float setting and reduced the main jet size to .090".....the COLD starting is great now, and the warm starting is MUCH better now, but the starter still slows down 50% or more(was slowing down 80%) if the engine doesn't start on the first 5-second try.
So.......it looks like you guys are right-----there are several problems going on at the same time causing my starter to crank slowly.
I just realized
......the slow cranking happens even with the engine completely COLD....which would eliminate starter-heat soak (and I don't know HOW I came up with 4"-5" of clearance between the starter and the exhaust manifold---I guess I was thinking of starter-to-exhaust down-pipe clearance...duhhh!).
More......later.
I followed your suggestions about the carb being part of the problem with flooding.....SOMEHOW
I had the floats set at 5/16" rather than the spec. of 7/16"------annnnd....taking a second look.......the main jets were .100"....I corrected the float setting and reduced the main jet size to .090".....the COLD starting is great now, and the warm starting is MUCH better now, but the starter still slows down 50% or more(was slowing down 80%) if the engine doesn't start on the first 5-second try.
So.......it looks like you guys are right-----there are several problems going on at the same time causing my starter to crank slowly.
I just realized
......the slow cranking happens even with the engine completely COLD....which would eliminate starter-heat soak (and I don't know HOW I came up with 4"-5" of clearance between the starter and the exhaust manifold---I guess I was thinking of starter-to-exhaust down-pipe clearance...duhhh!).More......later.
Last edited by doorgunner; Dec 20, 2014 at 10:47 AM.
Thread Starter
2026 Loser of the Year
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 36,607
Likes: 7,053
From: New Or-leens Loo-z-anna
Time flies! The main leaf works perfectly.
I got sidetracked rebuilding a convertible top assembly.
Now back to the starter.....I wrapped it in some quality starter wrap, but it's still acting up....it's dragging worse now.
I'll do the voltage drop on the battery.....then, on the starter.
I got sidetracked rebuilding a convertible top assembly.
Now back to the starter.....I wrapped it in some quality starter wrap, but it's still acting up....it's dragging worse now.
I'll do the voltage drop on the battery.....then, on the starter.