When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
It appears there is a difference of opinion here. This oil temperature problem is more prevalent North of the Mason-Dixon line as evidenced by the location of the posters who have offered advice regarding resolutions. A few FL residents, who live in the warmest average temperature State in the US, don't seem to be as concerned as those in the Great Lakes areas.
So regardless of where I lived, if I couldn't easily get my oil temperatures to run about 20 degrees warmer than my coolant or transmission like nearly every other car and most Vettes, I'd be wanting to know what I needed to do to my street driven race car if I don't intend to race it. Logically, I'd try to make it more like the Vettes that GM didn't make race ready.
Tom you know GM validates these cars in extreme hot and extreme cold. If low oil temps were causing problems you can bet GM would save the money and not put the oil cooler in.
Keep in mind, 99% of cars on the road don't have an oil temp gauge. And oil related problems are very rare these days. I cannot recall any oil related problems in Corvettes, or any other cars for that matter in recent memory.
Personally, I think the concept of "I need to get my oil hot enough to burn off the water in the oil so I need to see 212 degrees" comes from distant memory of the days when cars ran "Road Draft" crankcase vents and non-detergent oils. Sludge was indeed a problem in those days, I've rebuilt engines that were caked with ¼" of sludge..... a LONG time ago. Modern engines with properly functioning PCV systems do a great job of evacuating all combustion byproducts - the inside of my Vette engine looked like new when I took off the valve covers as do most folks these days.
It IS Corvetteforum so folks will inquire about a potential perceived problem. It's not a bad idea to get other ideas and that's the purpose of the forum, to collect ideas good and bad and make your decision.
Tom you know GM validates these cars in extreme hot and extreme cold. If low oil temps were causing problems you can bet GM would save the money and not put the oil cooler in.
Keep in mind, 99% of cars on the road don't have an oil temp gauge. And oil related problems are very rare these days. I cannot recall any oil related problems in Corvettes, or any other cars for that matter in recent memory.
Personally, I think the concept of "I need to get my oil hot enough to burn off the water in the oil so I need to see 212 degrees" comes from distant memory of the days when cars ran "Road Draft" crankcase vents and non-detergent oils. Sludge was indeed a problem in those days, I've rebuilt engines that were caked with ¼" of sludge..... a LONG time ago. Modern engines with properly functioning PCV systems do a great job of evacuating all combustion byproducts - the inside of my Vette engine looked like new when I took off the valve covers as do most folks these days.
It IS Corvetteforum so folks will inquire about a potential perceived problem. It's not a bad idea to get other ideas and that's the purpose of the forum, to collect ideas good and bad and make your decision.
Hello Joe, thank you for your input. However this is not just about getting the oil temps to 200 plus to evaporate water. As long as you are driving your car for any length it will do that.
The goal is to get the temps very quickly to the operating range and keep it there which is around 200-220 degrees oil temps. Engines and oils are all designed with this optimum goal for best economy, emissions, power and longevity. Every expert agrees with that, one you can find here on the forum, search for the bob the oil guy. Us technical persons with engineering backgrounds (running a large aircraft repair shop and being an A&P for the last 20 years) know this to be very true. If this was perfectly ok gm would not have changed the oil cooler in ZR1 to oil/coolant system which is a proper way. In reality, this is a long term problem, it is a calculated risk for them, all dollars and cents. After 5 years the warranty is up anyhow. In my book oil temps that take 30 minutes to get to 150 and only stay there is a huge problem. Maybe not for you , and and please do not take as an insult, ignorance is bliss. I know too much for my own good, coupled with being very AR, and a perfectionist, i wish sometimes i could just be like most people.
The end result is that you will do what you think is best, and i will do what I think is best. Period.
Maybe not for you , and and please do not take as an insult, ignorance is bliss. I know too much for my own good, coupled with being very AR, and a perfectionist, i wish sometimes i could just be like most people.
The end result is that you will do what you think is best, and i will do what I think is best. Period.
Correct on both counts.
As it happens my car has the oil to water cooler so not only can I be ignorant but I have the "better" system too.
As another option before you start installing aftermarket thermostats or plastic covers, you could change your radiator to the 2005 Z51 radiator with has the oil cooler in the radiator tank (and as expected, both tend to run around the same temperature all the time) if you're concerned. The radiator is only $165 or so on eBay plus you'd have to buy a couple of lines.
If you're looking for something else to worry about, install a trans and diff temp gauge like I have. My factory z51 manual trans cooler (in the other radiator tank) runs a nice 225 on the highway. BUT... my differential, which has no cooler (unlike the z06, Grand Sport and export models) will get up to 270 degrees on the freeway... and at Sebring, it got up to 280 after 20 minutes which caused me to get off the track - my water, oil and trans temps were all in the 220 range and fine, in my ignorant opinion.
It is worth noting that I had 3.90 gears at the time I was running at Sebring, and now 4.10's I cannot say if they run any hotter than 3.42's you would need to test that with a gauge.
It is further worth noting that a trans cooler is important for track duty - one day at Sebring two of my friends with 2003 Z06s, which have a "high trans temp" sensor and DIC warning, both ended up ruining their transmissions by not heeding high trans temp warning.
So if you do road course events in your car, you may want to install a diff temp gauge and a cooler. The factory system ties in with the trans cooler and though I've not tested the temps, I'm going to guess that adding the diff to the trans cooler would not overpower that system since GM did test it and approve it.
By the way if you decide to install a diff temp gauge, it's tough to get a fitting for the diff, it's an odd size. I bought a magnetic diff plug from Ecklers, drilled it and tapped it to the standard pipe thread that fit the sending unit. If you need me to dig up the dimensions I have them somewhere and would be happy to look them up for you.
As it happens my car has the oil to water cooler so not only can I be ignorant but I have the "better" system too.
As another option before you start installing aftermarket thermostats or plastic covers, you could change your radiator to the 2005 Z51 radiator with has the oil cooler in the radiator tank (and as expected, both tend to run around the same temperature all the time) if you're concerned. The radiator is only $165 or so on eBay plus you'd have to buy a couple of lines.
If you're looking for something else to worry about, install a trans and diff temp gauge like I have. My factory z51 manual trans cooler (in the other radiator tank) runs a nice 225 on the highway. BUT... my differential, which has no cooler (unlike the z06, Grand Sport and export models) will get up to 270 degrees on the freeway... and at Sebring, it got up to 280 after 20 minutes which caused me to get off the track - my water, oil and trans temps were all in the 220 range and fine, in my ignorant opinion.
It is worth noting that I had 3.90 gears at the time I was running at Sebring, and now 4.10's I cannot say if they run any hotter than 3.42's you would need to test that with a gauge.
It is further worth noting that a trans cooler is important for track duty - one day at Sebring two of my friends with 2003 Z06s, which have a "high trans temp" sensor and DIC warning, both ended up ruining their transmissions by not heeding high trans temp warning.
So if you do road course events in your car, you may want to install a diff temp gauge and a cooler. The factory system ties in with the trans cooler and though I've not tested the temps, I'm going to guess that adding the diff to the trans cooler would not overpower that system since GM did test it and approve it.
By the way if you decide to install a diff temp gauge, it's tough to get a fitting for the diff, it's an odd size. I bought a magnetic diff plug from Ecklers, drilled it and tapped it to the standard pipe thread that fit the sending unit. If you need me to dig up the dimensions I have them somewhere and would be happy to look them up for you.
Ok! Obviously my statement does not apply to you. I take it back and apologize. My GS is like a rock, most sorted car i have ever owned from the factory and my only complaint about it is getting that 11 quarts to the temps and keeping them there. Yes, i do not track, the cars capabilities and the design is above my needs but i do drive very spiritedly and only get around 11 miles per gallon. I am just trying to make it more user friendly to my needs and style. 40 years of hot rodding and 3 vettes, this is the first sports car that i have not lowered nor added any add ons other than some Michelin supersports and carbotech brake pads. It is good enough for me or maybe i am getting too old for it.
Since it is my weekend toy, i learned to live and adapt to it, i can get the oil temps up in about 10 minutes and keep it there ( 190, more needs lot more horsing around being in FL helps) But it is PIA. I wish it was like my new dd a volvo which is up to temps before i leave my street. That i get 32 miles in town from a very zippy 250 HP 2 liter turbocharged 4 cylinder with 8 speed auto.
However selling both and getting one serve all toy as a new BMW M5 is also in consideration but man the kill you after the warranty.
Driving off condensation has nothing to do with why I wanted higher engine oil temps. Do I think people are staring failure in the eye, if they keep the stock cooler? Doubtful...but it's not what I want for my own car.
I'd like to ask those stating that oil temp doesn't matter, what happens to bearing clearances with oil temps of 100* vs. 200*?
Another thing to consider is engine oil at 100* is SIGNIFICANTLY thicker than it is at 200*. It takes more power to pump, and puts more drag on the rotating assembly. Watch dyno numbers as engine oil temps come up...It makes a difference. If you're going to run your car with oil temps of no more than 150*, you might as well run a 20wt oil, and decrease some of these losses. It will still be thicker than a 30wt at 200*
GM no longer uses air cooled oil coolers in ANY of their engine platforms ranging from the 1.4T Ecotec to the 6.6L Duramax Diesel. If oil temps don't matter, why have they gone this route?
Ok! Obviously my statement does not apply to you. I take it back and apologize. My GS is like a rock, most sorted car i have ever owned from the factory and my only complaint about it is getting that 11 quarts to the temps and keeping them there. Yes, i do not track, the cars capabilities and the design is above my needs but i do drive very spiritedly and only get around 11 miles per gallon. I am just trying to make it more user friendly to my needs and style. 40 years of hot rodding and 3 vettes, this is the first sports car that i have not lowered nor added any add ons other than some Michelin supersports and carbotech brake pads. It is good enough for me or maybe i am getting too old for it.
Since it is my weekend toy, i learned to live and adapt to it, i can get the oil temps up in about 10 minutes and keep it there ( 190, more needs lot more horsing around being in FL helps) But it is PIA. I wish it was like my new dd a volvo which is up to temps before i leave my street. That i get 32 miles in town from a very zippy 250 HP 2 liter turbocharged 4 cylinder with 8 speed auto.
However selling both and getting one serve all toy as a new BMW M5 is also in consideration but man the kill you after the warranty.
Thank you for your kind reply.
Holy smokes... 11 mpg indicates something is wrong to me - you might want to look into that.
Here is the basis for my comment:
I have recorded every gallon of gas put in my car since I obtained 10 years ago. I have 497 drag strip passes, heads and cam and 4.10 gears and my average lifetime mileage, primarily from daily driving here in S. Fla traffic (80,189 miles currently), is 18.97 MPG.
My lowest tank was 8.37, a tank I ran 100% on the Sebring track.
My highest tank was 21.92, which was bone stock, and that tank included 8 drag strip passes. It wasn't long before I installed 3.90 gears and headers which dropped avg mileage to 19.37.
Average mileage with the G5x3 cam on top of headers and gears was 18.14.
Average mileage since I installed AFR heads improved 18.70, but it should be noted that I stopped daily driving the car 3 years ago, 6 months after I installed the heads, when I obtained a Prius. The 18.70 average is only over 5,178 miles and is mostly cruising to car shows and the track, with only a handful of drag strip passes.
By the way I've recorded 49.74 lifetime mileage in the Prius over 41,676 miles plus free rides in the I95 Express Lanes which can cost up to $12 one way to downtown Miami). As you can see, when gas was $4.30 a gallon the Prius was an amazing money saver.
My dear friend was one of the lead techs at Vista BMW near you (coincidentally he gave me the AFR heads and we did the swap in my driveway); he also warned me against getting a BMW that was out of warranty! And believe me, he knew!
Thank you for your kind comment, yes, I do track things as you can see and make every attempt to base my comments on experience or reasoned research. I'm not always perfect of course!
If you're really only getting 11 mpg your car must be leaking fuel, I'd seriously look into that.
p.s Gsflyer, there is a Corvette Challenge Reunion on May 6 at Palm Beach International Raceway, perhaps you want to come meet a few other folks? We have a great bunch of guys, and if you're interested, you can take your car down the track and get some pointers from Jeremy Preston who's won many Wallys in his day.
Seriously now guys. Tell me when was the last time you drained oil and found water in the bottom of the drain bucket? The old burn off condensation went away with 3,000 mile oil changes and the advent of PCV. Additionally, water evaporates at 32 degrees and above. It doesn't need to get to 212.
GM uses an oil cooler on the M6 GS coupe only to cover their butt for the buyers who buy one with the intention of racing it. It was part of the package that included the dry sump to avoid oil starvation during racing. The odds of that hurting the engine without one are greater than the odds of hurting it with one that is not raced. The odds in their favor increase significantly, since racers tend to mod and forgo the warranty and the buyers who don't race, also don't drive a lot of miles during the warranty period either.
The bottom line is that non-racers who bought a race ready car, not only don't need a cooler and dry sump, they are slowly hurting their engine by having one. Of course, it won't happen during the normal lifetime of the original owner, since they'll sell the car way before the damage rears it's ugly head. If the car is driven hard with low oil temps, it probably won't show anything beyond higher than normal oil use by 150,000 miles. The bearing wear and cylinder walls most likely won't be an issue until after 200K. However, the GS M6 vert (a no cooler wet sump system) driven the same way won't have those oil problems.
I'd take bets that the average original GS owner could have run non-detergent straight 30 wt oil and only changed it at 20K mile intervals and never killed the engine during the time they owned it. Lots of used GS's on the market now have a lot less than 50K miles and easy ones too. The low oil temp issues may affect 2nd, 3rd, and beyond owners if they don't destroy the car in a different way.
Low oil temps are easy to fix if you want to and also easy to ignore.
Holy smokes... 11 mpg indicates something is wrong to me - you might want to look into that.
Here is the basis for my comment:
I have recorded every gallon of gas put in my car since I obtained 10 years ago. I have 497 drag strip passes, heads and cam and 4.10 gears and my average lifetime mileage, primarily from daily driving here in S. Fla traffic (80,189 miles currently), is 18.97 MPG.
My lowest tank was 8.37, a tank I ran 100% on the Sebring track.
My highest tank was 21.92, which was bone stock, and that tank included 8 drag strip passes. It wasn't long before I installed 3.90 gears and headers which dropped avg mileage to 19.37.
Average mileage with the G5x3 cam on top of headers and gears was 18.14.
Average mileage since I installed AFR heads improved 18.70, but it should be noted that I stopped daily driving the car 3 years ago, 6 months after I installed the heads, when I obtained a Prius. The 18.70 average is only over 5,178 miles and is mostly cruising to car shows and the track, with only a handful of drag strip passes.
By the way I've recorded 49.74 lifetime mileage in the Prius over 41,676 miles plus free rides in the I95 Express Lanes which can cost up to $12 one way to downtown Miami). As you can see, when gas was $4.30 a gallon the Prius was an amazing money saver.
My dear friend was one of the lead techs at Vista BMW near you (coincidentally he gave me the AFR heads and we did the swap in my driveway); he also warned me against getting a BMW that was out of warranty! And believe me, he knew!
Thank you for your kind comment, yes, I do track things as you can see and make every attempt to base my comments on experience or reasoned research. I'm not always perfect of course!
If you're really only getting 11 mpg your car must be leaking fuel, I'd seriously look into that.
Trust me Joe, nothing wrong with the car. It is my right foot ( which is twice the size of the my left). My 11 GS is 6 speed with FX3 magnetic ride suspension which i love. My NPP fuse is out and has been for the last 4 years. Straight hwy driving does not excite me, nor quarter mile racing. I like fast corners and love the wail of the exhaust and the engine between 4000-6000 rpms. Once the oil temps hit 165 i am shifting at 4000 rpm, once they get to 185 or over she sees 6000 rpm often, at least 3-4 times each drive. I do often pull close to or little over 1 g, i have some isolated roads and over heads when traffic permits. My alignment settings are little in the wild side as those better serve my style and the feel i want. Plus my tires wear more evenly that way. I fill up at quarter thank which gives me about 160 mile range but all fun filled. And she loves it. This is my adaptation to warm the car up quickly and keep it there. You wont see me doing speed limit in the middle lane, not even with my DD. Turn and burn is why i drive a corvette. Just wish the oil temp would come up faster, because i have to behave until it does. That is my pain.
Thanks for the heads up on the gathering, i would love to, but it looks like it is on a Friday! What time is it at? I would certainly look forward to meeting you and the rest if i can, like you i keep a day job ( also starting at 5 AM, cant stand sitting in traffic)
PS, i did the Ron Fellows school 3 day program when i bought the car in 2011 ( it was really good to thrash their cars and go 8 or 9 tenths and learn the limits of this car in controlled and safe fashion. I also some racing background with formula fords ( that gives away my age) in the seventies and quite a few rallies and few wins during the 1980,s. The limits of this car is so high that even with my aggressive style there is no way for me to tap more than only half of its potential safely in city streets. Love the sport.
Hello Joe, thank you for your input. However this is not just about getting the oil temps to 200 plus to evaporate water. As long as you are driving your car for any length it will do that.
The goal is to get the temps very quickly to the operating range and keep it there which is around 200-220 degrees oil temps. Engines and oils are all designed with this optimum goal for best economy, emissions, power and longevity. Every expert agrees with that, one you can find here on the forum, search for the bob the oil guy. Us technical persons with engineering backgrounds (running a large aircraft repair shop and being an A&P for the last 20 years) know this to be very true. If this was perfectly ok gm would not have changed the oil cooler in ZR1 to oil/coolant system which is a proper way. In reality, this is a long term problem, it is a calculated risk for them, all dollars and cents. After 5 years the warranty is up anyhow. In my book oil temps that take 30 minutes to get to 150 and only stay there is a huge problem. Maybe not for you , and and please do not take as an insult, ignorance is bliss. I know too much for my own good, coupled with being very AR, and a perfectionist, i wish sometimes i could just be like most people.
The end result is that you will do what you think is best, and i will do what I think is best. Period.
Bingo!
My Z had the front cooler and in the winter never warmed up the oil.
My 13 GS has no cooler at all and is very happy. If I tracked the car, I would install a remote cooler. Probably get a Dewitts setup...
As it happens my car has the oil to water cooler so not only can I be ignorant but I have the "better" system too.
As another option before you start installing aftermarket thermostats or plastic covers, you could change your radiator to the 2005 Z51 radiator with has the oil cooler in the radiator tank (and as expected, both tend to run around the same temperature all the time) if you're concerned. The radiator is only $165 or so on eBay plus you'd have to buy a couple of lines.
That may end up being cheaper than installing an aftermarket oil thermostat and also more effective at bringing the oil up to temp quickly.
Originally Posted by HOXXOH
GM uses an oil cooler on the M6 GS coupe only to cover their butt for the buyers who buy one with the intention of racing it. It was part of the package that included the dry sump to avoid oil starvation during racing. The odds of that hurting the engine without one are greater than the odds of hurting it with one that is not raced. The odds in their favor increase significantly, since racers tend to mod and forgo the warranty and the buyers who don't race, also don't drive a lot of miles during the warranty period either.
The bottom line is that non-racers who bought a race ready car, not only don't need a cooler and dry sump, they are slowly hurting their engine by having one. Of course, it won't happen during the normal lifetime of the original owner, since they'll sell the car way before the damage rears it's ugly head. If the car is driven hard with low oil temps, it probably won't show anything beyond higher than normal oil use by 150,000 miles. The bearing wear and cylinder walls most likely won't be an issue until after 200K. However, the GS M6 vert (a no cooler wet sump system) driven the same way won't have those oil problems.
Lots of used GS's on the market now have a lot less than 50K miles and easy ones too. The low oil temp issues may affect 2nd, 3rd, and beyond owners if they don't destroy the car in a different way.
Low oil temps are easy to fix if you want to and also easy to ignore.
As a 3rd hand owner of what I intend(ed) to be a daily driver I definitely fall into this category. As a long time automotive design engineer I can't just ignore what to me is obviously wrong.
I do get the car out on weekends in the mountains and can quickly get the oil up to 210 and we haven't even seen any hot weather yet so I don't want to go coolerless. Covers are mickey mouse so it will be an oil thermostat or a cooler in the radiator. Thanks everyone for their input.
Dr. Gallup, as another potential option for you, my Harley had an oil cooler and a Jagg cooler thermostat (I had the manual one but they make an automatic one).
This would seem to serve your purpose so I thought I'd post a link for you.
However, Harleys run a lot lower oil pressure than a dry sump Chevy so you should call them to ensure their product would meet the needs of your motor before you buy it.
Personally, as I posted before, I'd put the same radiator my car has rather than install a thermostat and 4 more potential leak points.. but the thermostat option might be cheaper.
Let us know what you end up doing and why in case someone googles up this thread. It's always nice to have closure to a thread.
Improved Racing has an oil cooler thermostat that looks like a good option. It's basically like the Jagg one, but in a custom housing for LS motors. You could easily adapt the AN fittings on the thermostat to the hard lines from the stock cooler.
That Improved Racing thermostat looks like the easiest bolt on. However, I think I'd prefer to swap radiators. Searching on Ebay is only turning up one well used Z51 radiator and some cheap C7 radiator knockoffs. Anybody know a good source for replacement C6 Z51 rads?
That Improved Racing thermostat looks like the easiest bolt on. However, I think I'd prefer to swap radiators. Searching on Ebay is only turning up one well used Z51 radiator and some cheap C7 radiator knockoffs. Anybody know a good source for replacement C6 Z51 rads?
I would think Gene Culley on this board could help you out with a new one from GM. Or perhaps auto parts stores have them now since my car is 10 years old.
I think you'll have to make custom lines since my car doesn't have a dry sump and I think all the dry sump cars have the air to oil cooler like your car.
Trust me Joe, nothing wrong with the car. It is my right foot ( which is twice the size of the my left). My 11 GS is 6 speed with FX3 magnetic ride suspension which i love.....
A few facts:
There are two different oil temp sensors in the GS, Z06, and ZR1
The engine oil will be a little be warmer (+/- 20*) in reference to the dry sump until they reach equilibrium, which can take a while under normal street driving
After the coolant reaches 190* which takes roughly 2-5 miles of normal driving the car is ready to be driven hard
My engine oil pressures are healthy at 140*-160* range and don't start to differ by much until +215*
My experience has been oil anywhere between 140*-160* will quickly rise within a handful of 6K pulls to least 185*-200* despite sub 40* ambient temperatures
So here's my situation:
My car is a manual 2013 GS, and I DD it year round
I live in central NC so its gets cold here and we get "decent snow" by southern standards
Bought the car at 3 miles in Dec 2012 and it currently has +64K and counting
I change the oil at roughly 5% which amounts to about 7,500 miles
I've done 3 Blackstone analysis and they all have been perfect and they recommend pushing the interval to 10k but I'm too cautious
I track the car at VIR, and go on mountain runs a few times a year in the Appalachian
My opinion:
Drive your car as is, the modifications aren't needed
Be careful with removing or bypassing the cooler because it could change the flow characteristics for the worse
Driving the car hard once per fill-up should burn off any perceived containments in the oil.
Have a Blackstone analysis done before making any modifications.
I would think Gene Culley on this board could help you out with a new one from GM. Or perhaps auto parts stores have them now since my car is 10 years old.
I think you'll have to make custom lines since my car doesn't have a dry sump and I think all the dry sump cars have the air to oil cooler like your car.
Rock Auto has OE ACDelco ones for $365+ship. Part number 10353889
You can just use the Z51 lines that came on the LS2 cars. They don't have to be dry sump specific. They attach in the same spot on all LS motors...right above the filter. Rock has those as well. Part number 15898973. $115
