I don't know.....
Is a McLaren 720S really worth the price of three C7 Corvettes?
Is a C7 Corvette really worth the price of three Miatas?
They are to a lot of people. They aren't to a lot. Depends on the individual.

Once you get to a certain performance level, increasing that to the next level takes a LOT of money.
If you HAVE a lot of money, then of course it's worth it. If you DON'T have a lot of money, then it might seem ridiculous.

 

Why do you "love" that? You think someone is putting a "spin" on the comparison? That was the reality of the market, at the time...and as it relates to the OP's question.

You pointed out the % diff in HP -definitely significant...but you neglected to point out the diff in weight...which of course factors in; it's ALL about lb/hp and the 1/4 times of the day show that the difference, while big...probably wasn't big enough (once the LT1 came out). I know *I* wouldn't have spend $65k on a 'Vette that went ~.5 faster than one that cost $35k.




I don't think anyone has to "work" to rationalize not wanting a ZR-1. I'd guess that most everyone wants one....I "want" one. Do I "want" it bad enough to pay twice as much? No way. And the market at the time seems like it agreed.



I've seen this written countless times on these forum...I used to believe it and be bought into it; that the experience from 5-7000 RPM was what made the price worth it. BUT...now I've driven 3 different ZR-1's and I gotta say; the experience definitely did not match the "hype". The most recent one that I was fortunate enough to drive was forum member "Demps", and it was THIS CAR. I drove my '92 LT1 down there from PC. Met him (totally awesome guy, BTW) and we took his car out for a drive. The drive was lengthy and he encouraged exploring the LT5's RPM range several times. On the drive, I was totally impressed by the mid range power as the car broke the tires loose mid way through first (something my LT1 typically can not do...in UT), but honestly, I was a little disappointed in the top end pull. Where was it? It didn't really seem to be there -like I've heard. It reminded me of my LS2 in my C6 that just felt like you were beating on it above 5500 or so. It made power....but not like I thought it would. I don't think I actually ever got above 6500 or so because it wasn't my car....and it really didn't feel like it "wanted to". I knew it would, but it felt like..."What's the point?" Still, I was impressed with the power over all, the car in general was awesome...I liked it.

But then the kicker came; I got back in my LT1 and left. When I left the housing development and got back on the main road, I hit it in first, just like I had in the ZR-1 (first time since I'd had my LT1 down at 'Vegas's lower elevation)...and hot damn!!!....it ripped the tires loose about mid way through first gear, and spun 'em until about 5k -pretty similar to the ZR-1 had, then hooked and I shifted at my limiter; 5800. That was the deal breaker for the ZR-1, for me. From an "experience" perspective, I felt that the difference between the LT1 and the LT5 was small...and insignificant when you consider price.



All the other stuff you typed about how the ZR-1 should command respect, etc....it's all true, I love and respect the ZR-1 and what it did for the 'Vette (in the L98 days), but that really doesn't have anything to do with the OP's question. Back in the day, the "votes" were cast with dollars and most people didn't think the ZR-1 was worth twice the price (over an LT1).

 

Damn....totally true. Best post in the thread.

 

Some of it involves the price it take to get that little bit extra performance. I think the bigger question is: "How much more can they get out of the rich people JUST SO THEY CAN SAY...I have something YOU don't have!"

Prestige is something you're paying for too. At least when it's new. High-priced cars drop faster because the prestige goes away when it ages. At some point, they can even tank when "common folk" find out what replacement parts cost!

So you can't just judge cars on their merits. You have to include the intangible of how much is a rare car/option worth in limited numbers in the "I want to be better than you!" market.

After just having a conversation with a ZR1 owner in this thread, it sounds like the differences are much bigger than "on the surface".

What the potential of a fully-ported (heads/intake) compared to any LT1? Is there more like 100-150rwhp difference in the stock platforms...when massaged to their max?

Or even 200?

 

Or is a McLaren F1 really worth 20 million? To me it is. I love that car.

 

At least you got a totally unique Lotus designed engine, instead of basically a supercharger package like in the newer cars.

The new C7 ZR1 raises the same issues.

A C7 Z06 starts at about 80k. Whereas the rumored msrp for a ZR1 is 120k. 40k for an extra 100hp, carbon brakes, and a different front fascia doesn't seem worth it. But I'm sure GM will sell thousands of them.

 

Very true^

 

To the OP,you’d have to own one to understand. Not too many cars out there I’d rather have than my Z.

 

the first buyers will pay XXXX over sticker..... a year out they'll be discounted XXXX under...

corvette buyers never learn

 

A consumer does not learn. A marketer learns the consumer. People always BUY.

 

I think the question was already answered in the early 90's. "People stopped buying the ZR-1". That in itself showed that the ZR-1 was not worth the additional price.

I know there was many other factors that contributed to the demise of the ZR-1 not just sales, but if it was a smaller premium to upgrade to a ZR-1, you would not have see declining number in the later years.

my 2 cents.

 

The reason why the ZR-1 was discontinued was the fact the LT5 wouldn’t fit in the upcoming C5. When the ZR-1 first came out people were paying over $100,000 for the car,your argument about demand don’t fly. I’m an owner so of course I’ll do my best here to discount any less than knowledgeable info thrown out there.

 

You are correct in that the LT5 would have been discontinued because of the upcoming C5, but I would like to discuss the declining sales of the ZR-1 as the indicator that ZR-1 was not worth the extra cost over a LT1. Please keep in mind that we and the public at that time was comparing the Corvette with a LT5 and a corvette with a LT1.

To further discuss the $100,000 car in that time period, we would be talking about different car's (Corvette vs Ferrari, Corvette vs Porsche, etc..), However the corvette buyer was not comparing the Corvette to those cars at the time of purchase, they were comparing LT5 vs LT1

Note: Performance wise you can compare, but those car companies spent years before the ZR-1 came out to create there brand market. thus being able to charge a $100,000 for that car.

 

How long did that last?

Also, when the ZR-1 came out the LT1 was unheard of. We all thought 250hp was about "IT"...and the ZR-1 delivered almost 400. 2 years later, we had low 13's/high 12's ZR-1's and mid-low 13's LT1s....for $30k diff in price. What happened to ZR-1 sales then? THIS DID;...a decline from 2044 in '91 to 502 in '92.

Just one, but a pretty common perspective...GOOD READ


.

 

I cant help but notice everyone keeps saying the ZR-1 cost $100,000. It DID NOT cost that. It was priced at around $70,000. which is NOT $100,000. There was a demand for the car and people were happily paying over sticker.....

actually, less...
In 1990, a base model Corvette could be purchased for $31,979, yet the cost of the ZR-1 package alone added another $27,015 (or nearly 84.5-percent of sticker price) to the car’s Monroney label.

 

lol, the Z was a dream in like '88 or '89 I thought?

I also "thought" they had stopped making the engine and used old stock until gone?

How did the c5 have anything to do with it? Came out 7 years later and a completely changed car in many ways. Not to mention the world had majorly changed from '90 to '97.

I wish we knew the real story.

 

Just how long do you think it takes to develop a car from start to production? Development of the C4 started in the mid 70s.

 

^ Depends on the car, the commitment from the company, etc. With Corvettes, it seems to take decades , but C5 development started in earnest in about 1992. Last LT5 was made in '93, IIRC. That is evidence that the C5 was influential....but was it developed far enough in '93 that they knew the LT5 wouldn't fit/was too heavy? Hard to say. It's evidence and an interesting point, for sure.

OTOH, the correlation between ZR-1 sales numbers from '91 to '92, and the introduction of the '92 LT1 is pretty compelling.

 

The ZR1 was never a particularly high selling car. I suspect ending production of engines in 93 was more of a supply and demand issue than anything. if you have enough engines produced for two more model years, why wouldn't you stop producing them? I suspect it had nothing to do with the C5, and more to do with the price.

Could a DOHC LS based engine fit in a C5? Sure, with the appropriate designs and modifications to the hood. Heck, Mercury EVEN MAKES SUCH A BEAST. It's 775hp of LS based, 32V DOHC 7 Liter displacement goodness.

http://www.mercuryracing.com/mercury...-crate-engine/

The comments about the world changing a lot in the time frame are spot on. By the time the C5 was out, companies didn't do big time partnerships for special engines anymore. The LS6 was effectively a hopped up LS1 - and far cheaper to do than a LT5. Same with all the other higher powered engines that followed it - they're all very derivative of the engine before them. Heck, the new LT5 is a blower swapped LT4! There's lots of reasons for this - increased attention from shareholders (not liking expensive projects with low ROI), the high end buyer simply not considering Corvette, etc.

I could rant on about this, but bottom line was the reason the LT5 died off was because it was unique. Unique means expensive, and that usually means poor ROI, especially if you're not Ferrari or Porsche. The money required to make a DOHC engine in the Corvette just wasn't worth spending for such poor sales numbers when they could just hot up the cam for more power.

 

Sooooo,the fact that the ZR-1 pulled up a chair at the supercar table doesn't get any love? The car would beat most that the World had to offer and if it didn’t beat it it was right next to it neck and neck but I’m sure you guys will find some way to discount that. Back in 1991 Road and Track I think it was compared the ZR-1 the the 930 Turbo and it absolutely killed the magazine to admit the Z was a better car. Regardless I’ve got one,goin on 10 years now and wouldn’t have anything else.