[C2] 0-60 times for standard spec C2s
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,556
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From: Granbury Texas
Sorry, I don't buy your list at all. At the very least you have the L71s in reverse order. The 67 would be faster than the 68 which would be faster than the 69. The engine LOST power going from the mid-riser 67s manifold to the 68 low riser. This caused a significant reduction in air flow to the 68/69. Further, the 69 had (as far as stock configurations were concerned) far more restriction in the exhaust (using the 2" pipes rather than the 2.5" pipes). Further, the C3 L71s were higher in weight. At best, only the wider tires would have afforded more consistent launch, but not enough to overcome the significant HP losses. Bad list - try again - this time with some engineering logic.
to a point
I bought a brand new 1967 427/400 with CR trans and 3.70 rear (and A/C). Bone stock, it ran 14.2@102. I autocrossed with Firestone R100 (rain/race) tires. I ran this tire on the dragstrip which dropped my time to 13.82sec., due mostly to the lower aspect ratio giving me a higher (numerical) rearend value, but also due to being slightly stickier. I ran several 68/69 427/435hp Corvettes and usually beat them on the racetrack as well as on the street. At the Conroe dragstrip, I noticed a Wickersham 427 Fairlane with painted doors reading "World Record Holder - 12.23 sec." He was quick at the strip, with slicks. However, later I met him on the street (without slicks or prep) and killed him (He initiated the grudge race, having a girl whom he wanted to impress). I then added (ONLY) a 425hp cam (no headers) and with everything else stock, I was able to consistently beat 69 427/435 Corvettes on the roadcourse at TWS, and dropped my dragstrip time to 13.5@109mph.
PS I raced a 1969 (real) L88 with IMSA during the 1970s and it was, for a time, a winning car. However, it was a TERRIBLE street car!!!
Last edited by 63Corvette; Nov 25, 2017 at 12:27 PM.
Drifting
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From: Durham ON
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
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Just interesting conversation, but my list comes mostly from the MPH at the end of the 1/4 mile! Do realize that many magazines rounded down mostly, sometimes rounded up Mph and ET. If something ran equal MPH, then I tried to find a stock test with equal Axle ratios etc and placed the lower ET on top to break the tie!
The 1967 was severely hurt by 6 inch rims, inferior tires, even though lighter weight! The change of geometry in the rear and even a little more weight etc sometimes helped out the hookup, and you cannot discount the aerodynamics! There are direct tests of 66/67 vice 68/69 cars that used essentially the same drivetrains and the tests had the 68/69s on top! The 350 over the 327 was a big advantage!
Now naturally I have sub-lists where the top nasty 1967s kicked a$$ over most of the 68 offerings, but that list would get way to complicated for doing for the internet! Hell if I took my data out to that degree, I would have to have every version on the list with 4 speed and automatics and with every Axle ratio! That would take too much time and effort to refine it that precisely, therefore this is a good and better effort by myself to classify Corvettes in some type of order, than I have ever found from anyone else or from any other source! So you continue to damn me, for downplaying one of your personal favorites!
Taking like a L88 of the 1967 variety, the side pipes weren't sold on the cars generally, they shipped with restrictive mufflers, the raw horsepower and the lack of. Vacuum advance made it a handful to launch and hookup! Many a 3x2 could nail an L88 on more days, but God help you if you got that L88 hooked up with all of its might!
Finding data of equal runs of differing cars with the same axles, wasn't possible with just the back in the day available tests, so I did search into also more modern road tests of the old classics to derive this list!
And some placements were just pure judgement!
I dont mind if anyone disputes something or other, but I tried to read and eliminate or adjust data where Special tuning was done! If aftermarket tires, or air was let out of the tires, jetting changes done, timing changed, then I would sideline that result trying to stay true stock vs stock! And on some engines, I could not find a Corvette vs Corvette matchup, so I used a Camaro vs Camaro or other to try to place the engines!
The 1967 was severely hurt by 6 inch rims, inferior tires, even though lighter weight! The change of geometry in the rear and even a little more weight etc sometimes helped out the hookup, and you cannot discount the aerodynamics! There are direct tests of 66/67 vice 68/69 cars that used essentially the same drivetrains and the tests had the 68/69s on top! The 350 over the 327 was a big advantage!
Now naturally I have sub-lists where the top nasty 1967s kicked a$$ over most of the 68 offerings, but that list would get way to complicated for doing for the internet! Hell if I took my data out to that degree, I would have to have every version on the list with 4 speed and automatics and with every Axle ratio! That would take too much time and effort to refine it that precisely, therefore this is a good and better effort by myself to classify Corvettes in some type of order, than I have ever found from anyone else or from any other source! So you continue to damn me, for downplaying one of your personal favorites!
Taking like a L88 of the 1967 variety, the side pipes weren't sold on the cars generally, they shipped with restrictive mufflers, the raw horsepower and the lack of. Vacuum advance made it a handful to launch and hookup! Many a 3x2 could nail an L88 on more days, but God help you if you got that L88 hooked up with all of its might!
Finding data of equal runs of differing cars with the same axles, wasn't possible with just the back in the day available tests, so I did search into also more modern road tests of the old classics to derive this list!
And some placements were just pure judgement!
I dont mind if anyone disputes something or other, but I tried to read and eliminate or adjust data where Special tuning was done! If aftermarket tires, or air was let out of the tires, jetting changes done, timing changed, then I would sideline that result trying to stay true stock vs stock! And on some engines, I could not find a Corvette vs Corvette matchup, so I used a Camaro vs Camaro or other to try to place the engines!
to a pointI bought a brand new 1967 427/400 with CR trans and 3.70 rear (and A/C). Bone stock, it ran 14.2@102. I autocrossed with Firestone R100 (rain/race) tires. I ran this tire on the dragstrip which dropped my time to 13.82sec., due mostly to the lower aspect ratio giving me a higher (numerical) rearend value, but also due to being slightly stickier. I ran several 68/69 427/435hp Corvettes and usually beat them on the racetrack as well as on the street. At the Conroe dragstrip, I noticed a Wickersham 427 Fairlane with painted doors reading "World Record Holder - 12.23 sec." He was quick at the strip, with slicks. However, later I met him on the street (without slicks or prep) and killed him (He initiated the grudge race, having a girl whom he wanted to impress). I then added (ONLY) a 425hp cam (no headers) and with everything else stock, I was able to consistently beat 69 427/435 Corvettes on the roadcourse at TWS, and dropped my dragstrip time to 13.5@109mph.
Point though is that the 67, as I noted in my prior post, has a mid-riser manifold compared with the 68/9 low riser and the 69 is further hampered by the 2" pipes (and both the 68 and 69 are hampered by higher weight). I would estimate that the power in the 69 is down anywhere from 50 to 75HP compared with the 67. Tires are not going to make up that difference (keeping in mind that the 68/9 tires weren't really much better). And until this difference is explained (and tires is NOT a good answer) then I have to consider the list wrong (with all due respect and not a personal attack). From an engineering standpoint - it makes no sense - and that is what I want - an engineering explanation - because that is how the automotive planning world looks at these things.
By the way, the original owner of my 435 said he regularly beat L88s so I understand the comment. He also ran 12.88 in the 1/4 at 111.38 mph (as a track record) in a completely stock car - including tires back in 1968.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 38,361
Likes: 2,085
From: California
I wasn't coming back on till Maybe Christmas Day, but it is fun to hash this out! I do like feedback. This is the point of this exercise! Let me hopefully before the weekend ends, put some info to support my list up. I have to leave for the gun show today! Late already because of posting in C3 what's under my Christmas Tree!
Last edited by TCracingCA; Nov 26, 2017 at 12:57 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,696
Likes: 3,091
From: Cottonwood AZ
C1 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Lets not forget the below:
1. driver ability
2. elevation and ambient temp.
3. road surface traction
4. tires/slicks
5. and more
All of this is so subjective and there can be a big difference on any given day.
1. driver ability
2. elevation and ambient temp.
3. road surface traction
4. tires/slicks
5. and more
All of this is so subjective and there can be a big difference on any given day.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
I had many laps around the block in the '50's/'60's/'70's and I never saw or heard of a car with all factory installed parts and tune that would run an honest low 12 second ET in the quarter mile. That includes all tires, exhaust and gears. Never mind the driver.
But I didn't go around every block.
If you bought a fast car off the show room about the best ET you could expect would be low 14's/high 13's. There were no 12 second cars. I would say this. The Sting Rays were quick on the street regardless of tires simply because of the short wheelbase and weight transfer even though the tires were nothing special.
The lack of traction, lack of suitable exhaust (plus a good driver) is the very reason that many small blocks were able to blow off the BB's back then in a short race.
[/SIZE]
I am not including specialty, limited production cars like a Cobra.
But I didn't go around every block.
If you bought a fast car off the show room about the best ET you could expect would be low 14's/high 13's. There were no 12 second cars. I would say this. The Sting Rays were quick on the street regardless of tires simply because of the short wheelbase and weight transfer even though the tires were nothing special.
The lack of traction, lack of suitable exhaust (plus a good driver) is the very reason that many small blocks were able to blow off the BB's back then in a short race.
[/SIZE]
I am not including specialty, limited production cars like a Cobra.
Last edited by MikeM; Nov 26, 2017 at 03:33 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,277
Likes: 2,139
From: Bowling Green, Kentucky
I had many laps around the block in the '50's/'60's/'70's and I never saw or heard of a car with all factory installed parts and tune that would run an honest low 12 second ET in the quarter mile. That includes all tires, exhaust and gears. Never mind the driver.
But I didn't go around every block.
If you bought a fast car off the show room about the best ET you could expect would be low 14's/high 13's. There were no 12 second cars. I would say this. The Sting Rays were quick on the street regardless of tires simply because of the short wheelbase and weight transfer even though the tires were nothing special.
The lack of traction, lack of suitable exhaust (plus a good driver) is the very reason that many small blocks were able to blow off the BB's back then in a short race.
[/SIZE]
I am not including specialty, limited production cars like a Cobra.
But I didn't go around every block.
If you bought a fast car off the show room about the best ET you could expect would be low 14's/high 13's. There were no 12 second cars. I would say this. The Sting Rays were quick on the street regardless of tires simply because of the short wheelbase and weight transfer even though the tires were nothing special.
The lack of traction, lack of suitable exhaust (plus a good driver) is the very reason that many small blocks were able to blow off the BB's back then in a short race.
[/SIZE]
I am not including specialty, limited production cars like a Cobra.
However the 1969 Mopar big block 6-pak cars did/reported 12.95 sec quarter mile times bone stock. However, Ronnie Sox was shifting. 
There were a lot of "specials" and "ringers" being tested by the car mags that reported the great times. Some of the testers were also involved in the deception to help generate reader response and car/magazine sales.
Most of the low 12 sec cars required some parts changes and exhaust changes and sticky tires, and a 4.11 or lower rear gear to do these times. As well as a good "power tune". Basically similar to what Royal Pontiac did with their BOBCAT Package.
FWIW.
Larry
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
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From: Greenville, Indiana
However the 1969 Mopar big block 6-pak cars did/reported 12.95 sec quarter mile times bone stock. However, Ronnie Sox was shifting. There were a lot of "specials" and "ringers" being tested by the car mags that reported the great times. Some of the testers were also involved in the deception to help generate reader response and car/magazine sales.
Most of the low 12 sec cars required some parts changes and exhaust changes and sticky tires, and a 4.11 or lower rear gear to do these times. As well as a good "power tune". Basically similar to what Royal Pontiac did with their BOBCAT Package.
FWIW.
Larry
I understand. Read up sometime on the very first GTO that was given to magazines to road test. With a 421 SD in it.
Around here, 440's were low 14 second cars. I never saw a three pot 440 car back then but I can't believe that would improve the car 1.5 seconds over the four barrel.
I can only report on what went on around my block back then and it was pretty busy at one time.
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Race Director
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,277
Likes: 2,139
From: Bowling Green, Kentucky
The Bobcat package was good for about a half second or a little less ET. Still, a low 14 second car without anything else done.
I understand. Read up sometime on the very first GTO that was given to magazines to road test. With a 421 SD in it.
Around here, 440's were low 14 second cars. I never saw a three pot 440 car back then but I can't believe that would improve the car 1.5 seconds over the four barrel.
I can only report on what went on around my block back then and it was pretty busy at one time.
I understand. Read up sometime on the very first GTO that was given to magazines to road test. With a 421 SD in it.
Around here, 440's were low 14 second cars. I never saw a three pot 440 car back then but I can't believe that would improve the car 1.5 seconds over the four barrel.
I can only report on what went on around my block back then and it was pretty busy at one time.
Here is the road test and all that went on. Maybe the car was a ringer also, but their MOPAR ads over the 1969-1970 year all showed this 12.9 time as achievable. http://www.streetmusclemag.com/featu...unner-440-6-1/
They were sort of a "special" car, like the W-30 Olds and GS-1 Buicks. Not certain if the engine had a special engine building line. I think the W-30 and GS-1 did..........and perhaps also the Pontiac SD 421.
I remember trying to outrun a SD 421 in my youth. Guy just laughed at me and then tore off into the sunset..........leaving me far, far, far behind.
Larry
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,696
Likes: 3,091
From: Cottonwood AZ
C1 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
However the 1969 Mopar big block 6-pak cars did/reported 12.95 sec quarter mile times bone stock. However, Ronnie Sox was shifting. There were a lot of "specials" and "ringers" being tested by the car mags that reported the great times. Some of the testers were also involved in the deception to help generate reader response and car/magazine sales.
Most of the low 12 sec cars required some parts changes and exhaust changes and sticky tires, and a 4.11 or lower rear gear to do these times. As well as a good "power tune". Basically similar to what Royal Pontiac did with their BOBCAT Package.
FWIW.
Larry
Also regarding Mopars, Mr Norm's the top selling Mopar dealer in the day advertised nationally that with every sale you got a dyno tune with distributor re-curve and carb adjusting. All of those big hipo dealers in the day were doing stuff like this. Baldwin-Motion did special engine packages that guaranteed a certain ET but I believe it had to be their driver at a track of their choosing. Lot of stuff going on in the hipo heydays.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 38,361
Likes: 2,085
From: California
I see we have hijacked the OPs thread, actually mugged it!
When I dig up some of the other road test, I will try to post up some of what the OP was looking for!
For that Royal Bobcat 421 Catalina, it actually had a full boogie 428 in it!
Ya if you factor in the Hurst/Olds cars, you have to put in the Hurst Hemi Darts and Cudas and a whole bunch of tuner cars!
When I dig up some of the other road test, I will try to post up some of what the OP was looking for!
For that Royal Bobcat 421 Catalina, it actually had a full boogie 428 in it!
Ya if you factor in the Hurst/Olds cars, you have to put in the Hurst Hemi Darts and Cudas and a whole bunch of tuner cars!
Safety Car
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From: High Mountains of New Mexico
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The king of the street in stock form in my hometown came late in 1968, April or so if I remember. A kid got a '68 1/2 428 Cobra Jet Mustang coupe, with a 4 speed and 4.30 gears stock. He beat most everything on the street and took it to the drag strip at the old airport on the weekends and ran in the high 12s with only some bigger rear tires on it, H70X15s.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 985
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From: doral florida
65 gto
Set up a brand new 360 HP 65 GTO to drag race and ran 13.1 and 13.2 at NHRA sanctioned Edgewater. As many as 25 multi brand muscle cars would show up back then for B/Stock. Only car I couldn't beat was a local Olds dealer sponsored trailered 442.
GTO had Royal Bobcat package including open hood scoop and sealed air box for the 3 deuces. Heads were slightly cut to get real CR. Screw in studs versus pressed factory studs. Doug's open headers and M&H wrinkle wall slicks.
The 442 had everything but also had blueprinted the stock block and would dip into the high 12's.
Also ran the car at Thornhill a non sanctioned strip and did a couple high 12 second runs but their clocks were always questionable. Set to make drivers feel good!!
GTO had Royal Bobcat package including open hood scoop and sealed air box for the 3 deuces. Heads were slightly cut to get real CR. Screw in studs versus pressed factory studs. Doug's open headers and M&H wrinkle wall slicks.
The 442 had everything but also had blueprinted the stock block and would dip into the high 12's.
Also ran the car at Thornhill a non sanctioned strip and did a couple high 12 second runs but their clocks were always questionable. Set to make drivers feel good!!
