Will the ME have a DCT
Race Director
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 11,540
Likes: 115
From: Arlington TX
It sounds like to me you have never driven a PDK or a well sorted DCT.
I owned a Gallardo the transmission sucked. Horrible in auto mode clunky and always searching for the correct gear. From a dead stop there is a horrible delay while clutch engages and the car requires a small roll out prior to full acceleration.
Also Lamborghini states clearly in the owners manual that there is no need to lift of the accelerator while shifting.
Do you somehow lift of the accelerator when it's in auto mode?
Read the customer reviews on the Gallardo you see hundreds of complaints regarding the egear poor shift quality and premature clutch wear.
A properly set up transmission should not require that it's driven any different than a TC trans regardless of single clutch or DCT.
Drive a Ferrari 458 or 488 and you will then agree that the egear is just outdated junk transmission.
Lamborghini knew it had issues that why they recommended you not use performance start mode and knew clutch wear was unacceptable.
Granted it got better as software improved but it in my opinion is the worst transmission I have every owned in a modern vehicle.
Surly not suited for a 200k supercar. I must be one of those dumb drivers as I had to replace the clutch at 9k miles.
I think your biased due to being a Lamborghini owner. I know you stated that you have 50k miles on your car! That's great that you enjoy it seeming as a daily driver. But I also read where you no longer have the front diff. working and have it set up rear wheel only. Seems kinda odd to carry around a 200 front diff and not have it drive as intended.
Did the diff go out or did you just decide that you perffered just rear wheel drive?
Please go drive a PDK or a Ferrari or for that matter a Huracan and you will see that your argument about the egear is a waste of time and you will see how poorly it compares to more modern well sorted DCT
I owned a Gallardo the transmission sucked. Horrible in auto mode clunky and always searching for the correct gear. From a dead stop there is a horrible delay while clutch engages and the car requires a small roll out prior to full acceleration.
Also Lamborghini states clearly in the owners manual that there is no need to lift of the accelerator while shifting.
Do you somehow lift of the accelerator when it's in auto mode?
Read the customer reviews on the Gallardo you see hundreds of complaints regarding the egear poor shift quality and premature clutch wear.
A properly set up transmission should not require that it's driven any different than a TC trans regardless of single clutch or DCT.
Drive a Ferrari 458 or 488 and you will then agree that the egear is just outdated junk transmission.
Lamborghini knew it had issues that why they recommended you not use performance start mode and knew clutch wear was unacceptable.
Granted it got better as software improved but it in my opinion is the worst transmission I have every owned in a modern vehicle.
Surly not suited for a 200k supercar. I must be one of those dumb drivers as I had to replace the clutch at 9k miles.
I think your biased due to being a Lamborghini owner. I know you stated that you have 50k miles on your car! That's great that you enjoy it seeming as a daily driver. But I also read where you no longer have the front diff. working and have it set up rear wheel only. Seems kinda odd to carry around a 200 front diff and not have it drive as intended.
Did the diff go out or did you just decide that you perffered just rear wheel drive?
Please go drive a PDK or a Ferrari or for that matter a Huracan and you will see that your argument about the egear is a waste of time and you will see how poorly it compares to more modern well sorted DCT
I have driven a M3 with single clutch paddle shift and it was smooth, this was my point is the smooth operation has nothing to do with DCT.
Last edited by rgregory; Dec 17, 2017 at 04:49 PM.
Intermediate
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 49
Likes: 26
I never said it was perfect I feel they made more like a manual than an automatic. I never drive the car in Auto mode. I got underneath the car and pulled out all of the awd components, no I didn’t leave the dif in the car. Nothing was broken I just didn’t feel the awd did anything for me except allow for snow driving and it doesn’t snow here much. The Gallardo has a dumb awd system it isn’t electronic like some newer cars it only helps for straight like acceleration. Now the car is so much better to drive. Car is at 58k miles now not my daily driver but I drive it often.
I have driven a M3 with single clutch paddle shift and it was smooth, this was my point is the smooth operation has nothing to do with DCT.
I have driven a M3 with single clutch paddle shift and it was smooth, this was my point is the smooth operation has nothing to do with DCT.
SMG was the antithesis of smooth
You are the first person in history to describe the BMW SMG as smooth. . Frankly, it makes me question everything you post
Race Director
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 11,540
Likes: 115
From: Arlington TX
Yes my Tahoe is automatic and shifts so smooth but is nothing performance about it.
Intermediate
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 49
Likes: 26
Maybe since I actually like to drive and don’t want an automatic it doesn’t bother me. the M3 was the first SMG car I ever drove and I guess since I wasn’t looking at it like a luxury car but a sports car I didn’t think it was bad. I race cars and yes the race car is manual but it would be better if paddle shift and wouldn’t want it smooth but direct engagement.
Yes my Tahoe is automatic and shifts so smooth but is nothing performance about it.
Yes my Tahoe is automatic and shifts so smooth but is nothing performance about it.
but all of the cars I currently own are all manuals as well.
SMGs are widely considered to be garbage for a reason.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 16,067
Likes: 4,150
From: Bergen county NJ
Just because Porsche recently released an eight speed PDk doesn't invalidate the claim that planetary gearboxes are easier and lighter to get to greater number of gears and usually in a smaller amount of real estate...
I'm not saying I don't want a dct for the c8 as that's the complete opposite...
All I'm saying is look at other potiential choices that might be made..
Btw..the BMW single clutch grpearbox was horrible in automatic mode...it also tore it self up ...
Manually shifting because necessary quite often to extend the life of the clutch and the transmission..
The secondary market buyers in the know tend to shy away from msg cars for a very good reason...
They are pretty crappy on the street in day to day and the cost when they break is quite high...
I think a lot of guys replace the AMG transmission with a manual transmission these days..
My neighbors kid has a very nice BMW m3 coupe with SMG and I think his dad Andy I were talking and he said 3500 to convert ....
SMG in lambos and bmws suck
Race Director
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 11,540
Likes: 115
From: Arlington TX
I have owned 3 Manual Vettes have one still, a Camaro that I converted from automatic to manual. The Lambo is paddle shift because I thought it would be cool to have and I like it, had it for 9 years and still love it so say it is junk all you want but I have fun with the SMG I am not looking for an automatic so it works fine for me, it isn’t perfect but it is fun.
But I still stand by my original point, A SMG can be just as smooth as a DCT, DCT can just shift a little faster.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,436
Likes: 977
From: Overland Park KS
Why is it condescending that I don’t like automatics. Clutches are direct drive, torque converters are fine for trucks and towing.
I have owned 3 Manual Vettes have one still, a Camaro that I converted from automatic to manual. The Lambo is paddle shift because I thought it would be cool to have and I like it, had it for 9 years and still love it so say it is junk all you want but I have fun with the SMG I am not looking for an automatic so it works fine for me, it isn’t perfect but it is fun.
But I still stand by my original point, A SMG can be just as smooth as a DCT, DCT can just shift a little faster.
I have owned 3 Manual Vettes have one still, a Camaro that I converted from automatic to manual. The Lambo is paddle shift because I thought it would be cool to have and I like it, had it for 9 years and still love it so say it is junk all you want but I have fun with the SMG I am not looking for an automatic so it works fine for me, it isn’t perfect but it is fun.
But I still stand by my original point, A SMG can be just as smooth as a DCT, DCT can just shift a little faster.
I’ve owned one of the first 2002 M3 SMG II car’s; a 2006 E60 M5, and a 2010 R8 V10 R-Tronic, all with single clutch, semi-automatic gearboxes. Not one of them, and I knew exactly how to drive them as smoothly as it was possible to do so, hold a candle in smoothness to the DCT transmissions that were in my 2013 M5; my 2015 M4 and now my 2018 AMG GT R. There is simply no comparison and if you think there is, then you’ve never driven a modern DCT/PDK type of transmission.
Bish
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,244
Likes: 2,175
From: Cary NC
If you look closely at the leaked powertrain pic, there's a little green box mounted vertically to the very back of the transmission/transaxle; it looks very much like the plate heat exchanger used by ZF for fluid/oil cooling. That could be more evidence that this is a DCT based tranny with cooling requirements close to other similar transmissions. Or, it could simply be the engine oil cooler. GM has been known to stick them in funny places. 
Looking at this ZF 7-speed DCT transaxle below, you can see a very similar fluid-to-water heat exchanger on the lower-left outside of the tranny; while most plate heat exchangers look alike, ZF has been known for using them on the outside of their gear boxes mounted like below.
The interesting thing about ZF is that they also make an 8-speed DCT (non-transaxle), with a gear ratio spread and torque capacity which rivals a good planetary. They are somewhat unique in this regard. If they could combine their 8-speed capacity into a short transaxle like the one below, we'd have something pretty unique in the C8 drivetrain. That's much easier said than done, but it's fun to speculate.
ZF 7-speed:
Looking at this ZF 7-speed DCT transaxle below, you can see a very similar fluid-to-water heat exchanger on the lower-left outside of the tranny; while most plate heat exchangers look alike, ZF has been known for using them on the outside of their gear boxes mounted like below.
The interesting thing about ZF is that they also make an 8-speed DCT (non-transaxle), with a gear ratio spread and torque capacity which rivals a good planetary. They are somewhat unique in this regard. If they could combine their 8-speed capacity into a short transaxle like the one below, we'd have something pretty unique in the C8 drivetrain. That's much easier said than done, but it's fun to speculate.
ZF 7-speed:
Last edited by RedLS6; Dec 19, 2017 at 08:50 PM.
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Intermediate
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 49
Likes: 26
Dude,
I’ve owned one of the first 2002 M3 SMG II car’s; a 2006 E60 M5, and a 2010 R8 V10 R-Tronic, all with single clutch, semi-automatic gearboxes. Not one of them, and I knew exactly how to drive them as smoothly as it was possible to do so, hold a candle in smoothness to the DCT transmissions that were in my 2013 M5; my 2015 M4 and now my 2018 AMG GT R. There is simply no comparison and if you think there is, then you’ve never driven a modern DCT/PDK type of transmission.
Bish
I’ve owned one of the first 2002 M3 SMG II car’s; a 2006 E60 M5, and a 2010 R8 V10 R-Tronic, all with single clutch, semi-automatic gearboxes. Not one of them, and I knew exactly how to drive them as smoothly as it was possible to do so, hold a candle in smoothness to the DCT transmissions that were in my 2013 M5; my 2015 M4 and now my 2018 AMG GT R. There is simply no comparison and if you think there is, then you’ve never driven a modern DCT/PDK type of transmission.
Bish
I hate to say it, but based on what some people post, they just plain lie about what they've driven, let alone own.
Anyone who has driven a proper DCT can easily pick these people out by their posts.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,759
Likes: 539
From: AZ
St. Jude Donor '06-'08-'10-'11-'12-'13 '14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19
.....
Last edited by ByByBMW; Dec 19, 2017 at 11:21 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
If you look closely at the leaked powertrain pic, there's a little green box mounted vertically to the very back of the transmission/transaxle; it looks very much like the plate heat exchanger used by ZF for fluid/oil cooling. That could be more evidence that this is a DCT based tranny with cooling requirements close to other similar transmissions. Or, it could simply be the engine oil cooler. GM has been known to stick them in funny places.
Looking at this ZF 7-speed DCT transaxle below, you can see a very similar fluid-to-water heat exchanger on the lower-left outside of the tranny; while most plate heat exchangers look alike, ZF has been known for using them on the outside of their gear boxes mounted like below.
The interesting thing about ZF is that they also make an 8-speed DCT (non-transaxle), with a gear ratio spread and torque capacity which rivals a good planetary. They are somewhat unique in this regard. If they could combine their 8-speed capacity into a short transaxle like the one below, we'd have something pretty unique in the C8 drivetrain. That's much easier said than done, but it's fun to speculate.
ZF 7-speed:
Looking at this ZF 7-speed DCT transaxle below, you can see a very similar fluid-to-water heat exchanger on the lower-left outside of the tranny; while most plate heat exchangers look alike, ZF has been known for using them on the outside of their gear boxes mounted like below.
The interesting thing about ZF is that they also make an 8-speed DCT (non-transaxle), with a gear ratio spread and torque capacity which rivals a good planetary. They are somewhat unique in this regard. If they could combine their 8-speed capacity into a short transaxle like the one below, we'd have something pretty unique in the C8 drivetrain. That's much easier said than done, but it's fun to speculate.
ZF 7-speed:
Last edited by JoesC5; Dec 20, 2017 at 10:01 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,244
Likes: 2,175
From: Cary NC
The engine oil cooler is located just above the oil filter(which is horizontally mounted to allow a shallow oil pan to be used in order to drop the engine lower in the chassis). Notice that there is no sump in the oil pan like is found on the C6/C7 engines(both wet and dry sumps)
The size of the tranny oil cooler might be indicative of a DCT, assuming this is the only cooler which is a big assumption on my part as I don't know; but a transmission with a TC and more clutches would likely require a larger cooler, as we currently have now.
Usually 2-shaft DCT's with more ratios tend to be longer transmissions due to the extra gears, but the one pictured on the C8 looks short as well as being extremely wide and tall, which makes me wonder more about the internals.
Last edited by RedLS6; Dec 20, 2017 at 11:33 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
I think you're right on the engine oil cooler location. I was mainly joking about the location of the plate oil cooler on the LT4.
The size of the tranny oil cooler might be indicative of a DCT, assuming this is the only cooler which is a big assumption on my part as I don't know; but a transmission with a TC and more clutches would likely require a larger cooler, as we currently have now.
Usually 2-shaft DCT's with more ratios tend to be longer transmissions due to the extra gears, but the one pictured on the C8 looks short as well as being extremely wide and tall, which makes me wonder more about the internals.
The size of the tranny oil cooler might be indicative of a DCT, assuming this is the only cooler which is a big assumption on my part as I don't know; but a transmission with a TC and more clutches would likely require a larger cooler, as we currently have now.
Usually 2-shaft DCT's with more ratios tend to be longer transmissions due to the extra gears, but the one pictured on the C8 looks short as well as being extremely wide and tall, which makes me wonder more about the internals.
Last edited by JoesC5; Dec 20, 2017 at 11:49 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 11,540
Likes: 115
From: Arlington TX
Dude,
I’ve owned one of the first 2002 M3 SMG II car’s; a 2006 E60 M5, and a 2010 R8 V10 R-Tronic, all with single clutch, semi-automatic gearboxes. Not one of them, and I knew exactly how to drive them as smoothly as it was possible to do so, hold a candle in smoothness to the DCT transmissions that were in my 2013 M5; my 2015 M4 and now my 2018 AMG GT R. There is simply no comparison and if you think there is, then you’ve never driven a modern DCT/PDK type of transmission.
Bish
I’ve owned one of the first 2002 M3 SMG II car’s; a 2006 E60 M5, and a 2010 R8 V10 R-Tronic, all with single clutch, semi-automatic gearboxes. Not one of them, and I knew exactly how to drive them as smoothly as it was possible to do so, hold a candle in smoothness to the DCT transmissions that were in my 2013 M5; my 2015 M4 and now my 2018 AMG GT R. There is simply no comparison and if you think there is, then you’ve never driven a modern DCT/PDK type of transmission.
Bish
Yes everyone is going to DCT due to faster shifts and they have learned things from the first generations of automated clutches so they are smoother now.
I have put over 48,000 on my Gallardo. Yes the 570s I drove was a much more refined car in every way. My issue with the Gallardo is slow speed quirkiness as in sartinf from stop, once moving I guess I am in sink with it and let off the throttle just like when shifting a manual so it is smooth.
The 570 of course didn’t need to do that. But also the 570 is more like an automatic I couldn’t just put it in neutral at anytime and couldn’t skip gears.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 11,540
Likes: 115
From: Arlington TX
Not bad for a 13 year old pos SMG car...
Banned Scam/Spammer
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From: Stockton, ca
Race Director
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 11,540
Likes: 115
From: Arlington TX
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 16,067
Likes: 4,150
From: Bergen county NJ
Nice choice in wives! The cars cool too....if that's the wife? You must be laughing your @ss off...every morning , noon and night...
How old is she? 18 or 19? (Kidding) Very sweet!
Thumbs up
How old is she? 18 or 19? (Kidding) Very sweet!
Thumbs up
Last edited by JerriVette; Dec 26, 2017 at 04:11 PM.
