Building up a c2-c3 chassis
09-02-2014, 04:52 PM
#4
Team Owner
It does look GOOD, but as with all these chassis/suspension mods, when getting really advanced and beyond the capability of about 95% of the owners out in the field, I have to ask WHY?? for all out competition, fine, but these are ~40 y/o cars.....still the coolest ride on the planet far as I concerned.....
MY position is to make the mods a guy has a chance to do in his own garage, even weld up some stuff on his own or with a welder buddy helping out.....and to keep price/cost/effort down to a minimum....
For ***** OUT racing, yes, but for the typical owner interested in keep his car in GOOD shape and some simple changes.....I fail to see the point.....
the largest change to make starts with wheels/tires....like my easy enough '89 vette wheels/tires on the '72....sure I went with 255/50 up front, and Nitto 275/50 in rear so yes it's not the track hero, but it gained a hell of a lot in handling right there, and reinforced the change with a few other simple mods....
but gotta admit, wish you all were around some years ago...make that almost two decades....
MY position is to make the mods a guy has a chance to do in his own garage, even weld up some stuff on his own or with a welder buddy helping out.....and to keep price/cost/effort down to a minimum....
For ***** OUT racing, yes, but for the typical owner interested in keep his car in GOOD shape and some simple changes.....I fail to see the point.....
the largest change to make starts with wheels/tires....like my easy enough '89 vette wheels/tires on the '72....sure I went with 255/50 up front, and Nitto 275/50 in rear so yes it's not the track hero, but it gained a hell of a lot in handling right there, and reinforced the change with a few other simple mods....
but gotta admit, wish you all were around some years ago...make that almost two decades....
09-03-2014, 09:57 AM
#5
Former Vendor
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It does look GOOD, but as with all these chassis/suspension mods, when getting really advanced and beyond the capability of about 95% of the owners out in the field, I have to ask WHY?? for all out competition, fine, but these are ~40 y/o cars.....still the coolest ride on the planet far as I concerned.....
MY position is to make the mods a guy has a chance to do in his own garage, even weld up some stuff on his own or with a welder buddy helping out.....and to keep price/cost/effort down to a minimum....
For ***** OUT racing, yes, but for the typical owner interested in keep his car in GOOD shape and some simple changes.....I fail to see the point.....
the largest change to make starts with wheels/tires....like my easy enough '89 vette wheels/tires on the '72....sure I went with 255/50 up front, and Nitto 275/50 in rear so yes it's not the track hero, but it gained a hell of a lot in handling right there, and reinforced the change with a few other simple mods....
but gotta admit, wish you all were around some years ago...make that almost two decades....
MY position is to make the mods a guy has a chance to do in his own garage, even weld up some stuff on his own or with a welder buddy helping out.....and to keep price/cost/effort down to a minimum....
For ***** OUT racing, yes, but for the typical owner interested in keep his car in GOOD shape and some simple changes.....I fail to see the point.....
the largest change to make starts with wheels/tires....like my easy enough '89 vette wheels/tires on the '72....sure I went with 255/50 up front, and Nitto 275/50 in rear so yes it's not the track hero, but it gained a hell of a lot in handling right there, and reinforced the change with a few other simple mods....
but gotta admit, wish you all were around some years ago...make that almost two decades....
09-03-2014, 10:07 AM
#6
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heres the front arms and spindle
here's the front arms and spindle......we built in increased castor for better straight line tracking, the taller spindle gives a better camber curve, and finally a billet steering arm with all new geometry to improve akerman, steering response and eliminate bump-steer
09-03-2014, 11:05 AM
#7
Drifting
Curious: Is that a wrinkle finish paint on the frame?
I am rehabilitating a frame and am not sure what I'll do with all the pock-marks from the surface rust. A textured finish could be a step in the right direction. Just curious what you used to achieve that look.
All the parts look incredible, too.
I am rehabilitating a frame and am not sure what I'll do with all the pock-marks from the surface rust. A textured finish could be a step in the right direction. Just curious what you used to achieve that look.
All the parts look incredible, too.
09-03-2014, 12:51 PM
#8
Le Mans Master
Looks nice. 
Given so many mainstream companies in the restomod industry ignore us, its always good to see new, improved suspension bits becoming available for our generations. Please to satisfy my curiosity...
Qs about spindles & steering arms:
Resulting steering ratio (relative to stock manual and power)?
Available a la carte?
How much taller? 3/4"?
Do the arms bolt up to stock spindle?
Bumpsteer geometry compatible with stock manual relay rod?
Ackerman vs stock?
Approx. how much clearance for additional wheel backspacing?
Qs about CAs:
Bushing material?
How much additional caster? (Some of us with manual steering have reasons for running no more than 2-3*.)
Q about diff x-member:
Diff raised vs stock height, correct? How much?
I've got a million more, but figure that's enough for now. TIA
Given so many mainstream companies in the restomod industry ignore us, its always good to see new, improved suspension bits becoming available for our generations. Please to satisfy my curiosity...Qs about spindles & steering arms:
Resulting steering ratio (relative to stock manual and power)?
Available a la carte?
How much taller? 3/4"?
Do the arms bolt up to stock spindle?
Bumpsteer geometry compatible with stock manual relay rod?
Ackerman vs stock?
Approx. how much clearance for additional wheel backspacing?
Qs about CAs:
Bushing material?
How much additional caster? (Some of us with manual steering have reasons for running no more than 2-3*.)
Q about diff x-member:
Diff raised vs stock height, correct? How much?
I've got a million more, but figure that's enough for now. TIA
Last edited by TheSkunkWorks; 09-03-2014 at 12:56 PM.
09-03-2014, 01:19 PM
#9
Former Vendor
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Member Since: Jul 2014
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Curious: Is that a wrinkle finish paint on the frame?
I am rehabilitating a frame and am not sure what I'll do with all the pock-marks from the surface rust. A textured finish could be a step in the right direction. Just curious what you used to achieve that look.
All the parts look incredible, too.
I am rehabilitating a frame and am not sure what I'll do with all the pock-marks from the surface rust. A textured finish could be a step in the right direction. Just curious what you used to achieve that look.
All the parts look incredible, too.
09-04-2014, 10:27 AM
#10
Former Vendor
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Member Since: Jul 2014
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Looks nice. Given so many mainstream companies in the restomod industry ignore us, its always good to see new, improved suspension bits becoming available for our generations. Please to satisfy my curiosity...
Qs about spindles & steering arms:
Resulting steering ratio (relative to stock manual and power)?
Available a la carte?
How much taller? 3/4"?
Do the arms bolt up to stock spindle?
Bumpsteer geometry compatible with stock manual relay rod?
Ackerman vs stock?
Approx. how much clearance for additional wheel backspacing?
Qs about CAs:
Bushing material?
How much additional caster? (Some of us with manual steering have reasons for running no more than 2-3*.)
Q about diff x-member:
Diff raised vs stock height, correct? How much?
I've got a million more, but figure that's enough for now. TIA
Given so many mainstream companies in the restomod industry ignore us, its always good to see new, improved suspension bits becoming available for our generations. Please to satisfy my curiosity...Qs about spindles & steering arms:
Resulting steering ratio (relative to stock manual and power)?
Available a la carte?
How much taller? 3/4"?
Do the arms bolt up to stock spindle?
Bumpsteer geometry compatible with stock manual relay rod?
Ackerman vs stock?
Approx. how much clearance for additional wheel backspacing?
Qs about CAs:
Bushing material?
How much additional caster? (Some of us with manual steering have reasons for running no more than 2-3*.)
Q about diff x-member:
Diff raised vs stock height, correct? How much?
I've got a million more, but figure that's enough for now. TIA
were the stock spindle looks taller, it isn't really because of the ball joint mounting design....we couldn't get the needed camber curve with the stock spindle, and brake packages were limited...so with a conventional RideTech style tall spindle it moved the pivot point lower, the upper ball joint stayed the same, I will see if Britt can give more detail
09-04-2014, 11:47 AM
#11
Racer
Hi ,
That is some seriously nice engineering on that frame , would love to see the completed chassis . What are the design intentions for the rear trailing arm set up ?
Nice work on it so far , what sort of costs are involved for the front control arm conversion with the coil over shocks ??
I like
john
That is some seriously nice engineering on that frame , would love to see the completed chassis . What are the design intentions for the rear trailing arm set up ?
Nice work on it so far , what sort of costs are involved for the front control arm conversion with the coil over shocks ??
I like
john
here's the front arms and spindle......we built in increased castor for better straight line tracking, the taller spindle gives a better camber curve, and finally a billet steering arm with all new geometry to improve akerman, steering response and eliminate bump-steer
09-04-2014, 12:54 PM
#13
You all have some good questions! I'll address these in a number of posts so it's easier to read and understand.
MrVette asks, "Why?"
Well, though the Vette is decent in stock form there are a lot of improvements that can be made. Just as a stock first gen Camaro was ok, we have the ability to make it MUCH better just by bolting on product that cures the ailments of the stock design, and corrects the geometry for modern wheel/tire packages. These cars cannot hold a candle to a modern Vette (C5/C6/C7) in stock form.
It is our goal to create an affordable kit that is as bolt on as possible and make the old girls handle and ride as well as, if not better than, the new models from the General.
These are not full on race kits. . .though you can be VERY competitive in the new forms of "street car racing" (Goodguys autocross, Ultimate Street Car events, etc).
MrVette asks, "Why?"
Well, though the Vette is decent in stock form there are a lot of improvements that can be made. Just as a stock first gen Camaro was ok, we have the ability to make it MUCH better just by bolting on product that cures the ailments of the stock design, and corrects the geometry for modern wheel/tire packages. These cars cannot hold a candle to a modern Vette (C5/C6/C7) in stock form.
It is our goal to create an affordable kit that is as bolt on as possible and make the old girls handle and ride as well as, if not better than, the new models from the General.
These are not full on race kits. . .though you can be VERY competitive in the new forms of "street car racing" (Goodguys autocross, Ultimate Street Car events, etc).
09-04-2014, 01:54 PM
#14
Sorry, I should have mentioned earlier that I am the Engineering Director for Ridetech. I just noticed I don't have much information to the left of this message.
Now, on with the show.
TheSkunkWorks:
spindles & steering arms:
Resulting steering ratio (relative to stock manual and power)?
-We upgraded both our C2 (1964) and C3 (1972) to a Borgeson 12.7:1 box. The box in the 64 was completely junk, while the C3 was better. However, I suggest a good "fast" box to compliment the suspension.
Available a la carte?
-you can buy the front or the rear as a kit so you can build in stages if you'd like.
How much taller? 3/4"?
-see Rodneys image
Do the arms bolt up to stock spindle?
-no. We use our "tall drop" spindle. This is the same spindle we use in our first gen Camaro kits, 64-72 A-Body kits, and our 64-66 Mustang TruTurn kits.
Bumpsteer geometry compatible with stock manual relay rod?
-bumpsteer with our TruTurn system is under 60 thousands throughout full suspension travel range
-OE bumpsteer was 1.375" on our 64 in stock config
-TruTurn kit fits both manual and power versions
Ackerman vs stock?
-I'll be honest I don't know the stock ackerman. . .I tossed those parts as soon as I knew we were using our spindles.
-I don't want to put on the web what ours measures as the steering linkage locations are the key to our kit. I can tell you the new ackerman and linkage locations provide amazing turn in without being "darty" on the street, and does not limit turning radius compared to stock.
Approx. how much clearance for additional wheel backspacing?
-till the tire hits the frame or the sway bar at full lock.
Control Arms:
Bushing material?
-Injection molded Delrin with 13% PTFE. Means near solid performance without as much NVH; no lubrication required (Teflon impregnation so they are "self lubricating).
How much additional caster? (Some of us with manual steering have reasons for running no more than 2-3*.)
-We typically run as much as we can get (6* or more). However, the upper control arm shaft has caster slugs, so you can move them all over the place. Mind you the lower ball joint is in a fixed location, so moving it too far may make the wheel look funny in the opening.
-When we use our "center" slug we get 2.8*; ".125" slug we get 5.6*; and ".250" slug we get 6.8* (all measured without shims on upper control arm)
diff x-member:
Diff raised vs stock height, correct? How much?
-places the inside u-joint 0.50" higher than the outside. You can't move it much as the driveshaft yoke will hit the bodies on the earlier cars and you'll start running into pinion angle issues.
Now, on with the show.
TheSkunkWorks:
spindles & steering arms:
Resulting steering ratio (relative to stock manual and power)?
-We upgraded both our C2 (1964) and C3 (1972) to a Borgeson 12.7:1 box. The box in the 64 was completely junk, while the C3 was better. However, I suggest a good "fast" box to compliment the suspension.
Available a la carte?
-you can buy the front or the rear as a kit so you can build in stages if you'd like.
How much taller? 3/4"?
-see Rodneys image
Do the arms bolt up to stock spindle?
-no. We use our "tall drop" spindle. This is the same spindle we use in our first gen Camaro kits, 64-72 A-Body kits, and our 64-66 Mustang TruTurn kits.
Bumpsteer geometry compatible with stock manual relay rod?
-bumpsteer with our TruTurn system is under 60 thousands throughout full suspension travel range
-OE bumpsteer was 1.375" on our 64 in stock config
-TruTurn kit fits both manual and power versions
Ackerman vs stock?
-I'll be honest I don't know the stock ackerman. . .I tossed those parts as soon as I knew we were using our spindles.
-I don't want to put on the web what ours measures as the steering linkage locations are the key to our kit. I can tell you the new ackerman and linkage locations provide amazing turn in without being "darty" on the street, and does not limit turning radius compared to stock.
Approx. how much clearance for additional wheel backspacing?
-till the tire hits the frame or the sway bar at full lock.
Control Arms:
Bushing material?
-Injection molded Delrin with 13% PTFE. Means near solid performance without as much NVH; no lubrication required (Teflon impregnation so they are "self lubricating).
How much additional caster? (Some of us with manual steering have reasons for running no more than 2-3*.)
-We typically run as much as we can get (6* or more). However, the upper control arm shaft has caster slugs, so you can move them all over the place. Mind you the lower ball joint is in a fixed location, so moving it too far may make the wheel look funny in the opening.
-When we use our "center" slug we get 2.8*; ".125" slug we get 5.6*; and ".250" slug we get 6.8* (all measured without shims on upper control arm)
diff x-member:
Diff raised vs stock height, correct? How much?
-places the inside u-joint 0.50" higher than the outside. You can't move it much as the driveshaft yoke will hit the bodies on the earlier cars and you'll start running into pinion angle issues.
09-04-2014, 02:04 PM
#15
Jakvette asks, "What are the design intentions for the rear trailing arm set up?"
Design intention is:
-limit toe change via OE front bushing
--we have two options, a "low movement" rubber bushing, for those who want to daily drive with minimal NVH increase; or a teflon lined bearing option for those who want zero movement.
-allow the widest wheel/tire combo possible
--we do this by stepping the trailing arm in around the tire. The OE frame is now the limiting factor
-increased strength
--we use a fully welded "truss" design that keeps things extremely strong but doesn't weigh a ton
-adjustable pick up location for coil over (coil over located behind axle)
-look cool!
Design intention is:
-limit toe change via OE front bushing
--we have two options, a "low movement" rubber bushing, for those who want to daily drive with minimal NVH increase; or a teflon lined bearing option for those who want zero movement.
-allow the widest wheel/tire combo possible
--we do this by stepping the trailing arm in around the tire. The OE frame is now the limiting factor
-increased strength
--we use a fully welded "truss" design that keeps things extremely strong but doesn't weigh a ton
-adjustable pick up location for coil over (coil over located behind axle)
-look cool!
09-04-2014, 02:11 PM
#16
Vince'82 asks,
"do you plan to build a 80-82 rear suspensions kit later?"
-If there's enough interest, yes.
"can we re-use brakes designed for stock spindles?"
-not at this time. Our spindle uses F or A Body brakes. We did this for a couple of reasons; one there are more brake options available for the A/F Body cars; two our spindle works great in this application.
-I'm working on a spindle that would allow you to use your current brakes. Would require a bracket change. However, with so many brake options out there this may not be feasible.
"do you plan to build a 80-82 rear suspensions kit later?"
-If there's enough interest, yes.
"can we re-use brakes designed for stock spindles?"
-not at this time. Our spindle uses F or A Body brakes. We did this for a couple of reasons; one there are more brake options available for the A/F Body cars; two our spindle works great in this application.
-I'm working on a spindle that would allow you to use your current brakes. Would require a bracket change. However, with so many brake options out there this may not be feasible.
09-04-2014, 04:08 PM
#17
Le Mans Master
Appreciate the quick response to so many of my questions.
Tho I'm not personally in the market for a drop spindle based setup, I'm certain those who may be will find the info very helpful in their considerations. Best of luck!
Tho I'm not personally in the market for a drop spindle based setup, I'm certain those who may be will find the info very helpful in their considerations. Best of luck!
09-04-2014, 06:29 PM
#18
Though we use a drop spindle we don't lower the car that much. The C2 needed to get lower. . .the C3, not so much. The C3 was more of a "make the tire fit the well better" deal while dramatically improving suspension geometry.
09-05-2014, 01:28 AM
#20
Racer
suspension design
Hi ,
Great idea's and design sounds and looks great from the pictures posted .
Any pics of the rear design or components other than the diff mount member ??
Pricing ??
john
Great idea's and design sounds and looks great from the pictures posted .
Any pics of the rear design or components other than the diff mount member ??
Pricing ??
john
Jakvette asks, "What are the design intentions for the rear trailing arm set up?"
Design intention is:
-limit toe change via OE front bushing
--we have two options, a "low movement" rubber bushing, for those who want to daily drive with minimal NVH increase; or a teflon lined bearing option for those who want zero movement.
-allow the widest wheel/tire combo possible
--we do this by stepping the trailing arm in around the tire. The OE frame is now the limiting factor
-increased strength
--we use a fully welded "truss" design that keeps things extremely strong but doesn't weigh a ton
-adjustable pick up location for coil over (coil over located behind axle)
-look cool!
Design intention is:
-limit toe change via OE front bushing
--we have two options, a "low movement" rubber bushing, for those who want to daily drive with minimal NVH increase; or a teflon lined bearing option for those who want zero movement.
-allow the widest wheel/tire combo possible
--we do this by stepping the trailing arm in around the tire. The OE frame is now the limiting factor
-increased strength
--we use a fully welded "truss" design that keeps things extremely strong but doesn't weigh a ton
-adjustable pick up location for coil over (coil over located behind axle)
-look cool!