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Do you guys see a lot of crashes during your HPDE sessions? I was watching one yesterday (SCCA AMP Atlanta) and the Intermediate group had a huge crash(the driver of a Golf GTI flew from T6 over the fence and crashed on T1) and another one (C5 Z06 Advance Group) lost control on T16 and crashed into the fence before the braking point zone. They demanded us to put the phones down and get inside the rooms so I did not get any pics.
Here are some examples of driver mistakes that can end badly. At Watkins Glen exiting Turn 1 (much better after a lot of changes over the last 20 years) can bite a person when exiting the turn with the car running up on the rumble strip which has a crown in it. Once you are on that rumble strip (especially if your tires are on the outside of the crown) you have placed the loaded tires on a lower grip surface so trying to bring the car back onto the asphalt by turning the steering to the right can result in a sudden sharp right hand turn when the outside tire finally gets back on the asphalt. That usually results in a totaled car with the front end about 4 ft shorter than it was a few seconds before. Same goes for Turn 10 with the car turning to the left instead and track out on Turn 8. Instructors usually spend time with their students making sure they know what to do when they get caught out there since the normal reaction usually results in damage. The same thing happens on highways. It gets all caught up in lower grip surfaces, climbing the pavement edge (where you encounter an edge) or people who jump on the throttle or lift too suddenly. A bunch of variables that all depend on the speed of the car and how the driver reacts in that OH, **** moment. I was riding with a student in a Viper braking into T1 at the Glen, he was on line and going in the dip toward the apex of the turn when he left off the brake. The car suddenly felt like it was floating to me. I yelled Brake, Brake, Brake but he turned the steering wheel further to the right and around we went with the rear of the car swinging to the left. As we came around on the second spin the front end of the car just collected the guard rail between pit lane and the track. Another two feet and he would have cleared it. He had two possible corrections that could have been made from the time he took his foot off the brake, go back to the brake or step on the gas and blow the corner, turning the steering when he did with the rear wheels unloaded and in compression braking wasn't a valid option. $15K in damages and he drove the car home. Viper Hoods are astoundingly expensive to replace or repair.
A year later I was riding in a BMW B level student (great driver) going into the same turn. He was doing 135 mph downhill when he hit the brake pedal at the 350 ft mark. That is when he told me NO Brakes. A lot goes through your mind then and there isn't a lot of time and I had to figure out which instruction would work best for us. I told him to spin the car and we went spinning off the end of the track and through 200 ft of asphalt run off area and hit the tire wall going backwards. He had also pulled the parking brake and locked the rear wheels so they were sliding backwards the last 50 ft or so. All that happened was he broke a tail light lens. The left front brake hose pulled out of its fitting where it fastened to the caliper. At VIR I was riding in 98 M3 with a driver who hadn't driven on the track in the rain. He had good tires and was following two other cars at a moderate speed into the Hog Pen dip when the rear end of the car came around to the left at about 35 to 40 mph. I am not sure what caused that but I suspect he wussed out and lifted off the throttle right at the wrong time. He reacted correctly by burying his foot on the brake and I thought we were going to slide off the left side of the track and be OK when suddenly the car (which was pointing toward the right side of the track) suddenly shot forward, up the hill and head on into the guard rail. I am not sure but I think he took his foot off the brake and that is what caused the car to react that way. This happened fast and didn't have time to say a word to him before we hit hard.
Another time I was riding in a 98 C5 at the NCM VIR HPDE. The student came around Turn 3 and was pushing hard toward track out but the back end broke to the right. At this point he kept his foot on the throttle and attempted to drive out of the slide. However, he didn't counter steer quick enough so when the slide got bad enough he took his foot off the throttle with the steering still pointing the wrong way and the car went from a power on over steer to an off throttle over steer which took us backwards off the left side of the track, coming to a stop next to the tire wall. If I had stuck my elbow out of the window it would have hit the tires.
When I was at VIR 6 weeks ago I had a C Level Student who was a very fast driver who always tried to get at the front of the line when we lined up in pit lane. However, he had a bad problem that didn't show up until he started catching other cars. He didn't seem to realize that he was going much faster than the cars in front of him and would constantly drive up their exhaust pipes. I thought it might be lack of forward vision but some of these incidents happened when the car was less than 2 car lengths in front of him. Going into T1 I had to yell at him to hit the brake as cars in front of him were stacking up in the braking zone. We came close to taking out a 911. Then a couple sessions and a lot of discussion later he was coming out of T7 in the uphill Esses and there was a slower car in front of him just turning in T8. We came up on that car fast and when I realized my student wasn't going to take his foot off the floor I yelled. Brake!!! He hit the brake and locked up the front wheels and went straight off the track while the car in front of us followed the track to the right we then came back onto the track as it came back to the left for T9. We did pass the car while in the grass with the brakes fully locked up. That required a trip to talk to the Chief Instructor. The student saw the car in front of him but he didn't seem to think he was gaining on it. I am pretty sure his problem wasn't being able to look ahead I think it was lack of depth perception or not being able to judge trajectories/speeds of various objects and determine their intercept points. If I hadn't been riding with him he may have had a car to car incident on the first day. He wanted to be promoted to the B Level but I said no way. You have to learn how to judge what is going to happen, look forward, interpret what you are seeing and determine the consequences if you keep heading into the situation at wide open throttle and adjust speed accordingly before you have to make an emergency maneuver.
As an Instructor I am supposed to look ahead and see situations developing but sometimes things happen suddenly and change everything. I used all of those incidents as teaching moments with those particular students but I use the failed brake hose incident with every one of my students since that happened. There isn't enough time for the student to ask what to do, for me to think of the best option in that situation and tell him what to do and then for him to react to what I told him.
It varies. Usually there will be one or two per two day event with around 100 students. Most are minor and the cars don't suffer too much damage. I have been to some BMW events where we actually made it through a two day event with nothing more than mechanical breakdowns.
Usually the lowest incident rate is in the novice classes where the students have no idea how fast they can go around a corner so tend to drive fairly slow. Mistakes they make are usually covered by their car since they are driving far below its capabilities. The exception is the student who thinks they are a great driver and are determined to show the instructor how fast they can go. However, I have only run into a couple of those in 12 years of instructing. As the students gain experience they start to push their car's performance envelope so when a mistake is made the car can't cover them as well. Most incidents happen in the intermediate run groups where the students have learned to push the car to its limit while driving the line but haven't learned how to recover from a mistake or something that puts them off line. Accidents tend to tail off with Advanced and Instructor Level drivers since they have learned some of these things. From what I have seen the SCCA PDX format may increase the likelihood of more novice level incidents Vs other formats.
It varies. Usually there will be one or two per two day event with around 100 students. Most are minor and the cars don't suffer too much damage. I have been to some BMW events where we actually made it through a two day event with nothing more than mechanical breakdowns.
Usually the lowest incident rate is in the novice classes where the students have no idea how fast they can go around a corner so tend to drive fairly slow. Mistakes they make are usually covered by their car since they are driving far below its capabilities. The exception is the student who thinks they are a great driver and are determined to show the instructor how fast they can go. However, I have only run into a couple of those in 12 years of instructing. As the students gain experience they start to push their car's performance envelope so when a mistake is made the car can't cover them as well. Most incidents happen in the intermediate run groups where the students have learned to push the car to its limit while driving the line but haven't learned how to recover from a mistake or something that puts them off line. Accidents tend to tail off with Advanced and Instructor Level drivers since they have learned some of these things. From what I have seen the SCCA PDX format may increase the likelihood of more novice level incidents Vs other formats.
Bill
I did not see any ride-along instructors in the novice group yesterday.
Yes. Was at a Porsche owners HPDE and a Boxster owner way overdrove his abilities and put it into a wall. Written off, no injuries except to his pride.
I have to go along with Bill; SCCA and NASA run HPDE's along with some club racing events are pushing drivers to move into WtoW racing rather than just teaching performance driving. The majority of the accidents that I have seen or heard about have been SCCA or NASA related. The chances of a well run HPDE (only) event swapping paint is very slight; one outfit I work for has been in business for 15 years doing some 12 to 14 events per and has never had two cars touch on the track. We (instructors and students) are reminded of this at the beginning of each event....and not to be the one who breaks the record!
Chose you event wisely, check out there safety history, talk to the instructors if you can, then decide.
I have to go along with Bill; SCCA and NASA run HPDE's along with some club racing events are pushing drivers to move into WtoW racing rather than just teaching performance driving. The majority of the accidents that I have seen or heard about have been SCCA or NASA related. The chances of a well run HPDE (only) event swapping paint is very slight; one outfit I work for has been in business for 15 years doing some 12 to 14 events per and has never had two cars touch on the track. We (instructors and students) are reminded of this at the beginning of each event....and not to be the one who breaks the record!
Chose you event wisely, check out there safety history, talk to the instructors if you can, then decide.
As the students gain experience they start to push their car's performance envelope so when a mistake is made the car can't cover them as well. Most incidents happen in the intermediate run groups where the students have learned to push the car to its limit while driving the line but haven't learned how to recover from a mistake or something that puts them off line.
This is where I got to: decent Intermediate level, but when I lose it, no idea how to recover. I ran off into the grass a few times, luckily no damage. So I play it safe and no longer push myself, just work on consistency & technique. I enter a corner knowing I 'could' be going 5-10% faster, but 100% sure I'll make it out the other end
This is where I got to: decent Intermediate level, but when I lose it, no idea how to recover. I ran off into the grass a few times, luckily no damage. So I play it safe and no longer push myself, just work on consistency & technique. I enter a corner knowing I 'could' be going 5-10% faster, but 100% sure I'll make it out the other end
We're not making any money out on track, so I run probably around 8/10ths. Only had one off, and realized that the Autox habit of 10/10ths (timed event, relatively slow speeds and almost zero chance of damage) had kicked back in and I was pushing. Since then I've had a bunch of fun, worn out parts, but not damaged any. Point by's to anyone that comes up behind me, and back off from the rare nut-job in front of me that doesn't want to let anyone by.
I've only ever seen two crashes at The Ridge in WA, and they were both solo crashes caused by way, way too much speed + understeer. For the most part, unless you're pushing the car way over its limits or experience mechanical failure, you'll stay far away from the barriers even if you do go off-track.
Here are some examples of driver mistakes that can end badly. At Watkins Glen exiting Turn 1 (much better after a lot of changes over the last 20 years) can bite a person when exiting the turn with the car running up on the rumble strip which has a crown in it. Once you are on that rumble strip (especially if your tires are on the outside of the crown) you have placed the loaded tires on a lower grip surface so trying to bring the car back onto the asphalt by turning the steering to the right can result in a sudden sharp right hand turn when the outside tire finally gets back on the asphalt. That usually results in a totaled car with the front end about 4 ft shorter than it was a few seconds before. Same goes for Turn 10 with the car turning to the left instead and track out on Turn 8. Instructors usually spend time with their students making sure they know what to do when they get caught out there since the normal reaction usually results in damage. The same thing happens on highways. It gets all caught up in lower grip surfaces, climbing the pavement edge (where you encounter an edge) or people who jump on the throttle or lift too suddenly. A bunch of variables that all depend on the speed of the car and how the driver reacts in that OH, **** moment. I was riding with a student in a Viper braking into T1 at the Glen, he was on line and going in the dip toward the apex of the turn when he left off the brake. The car suddenly felt like it was floating to me. I yelled Brake, Brake, Brake but he turned the steering wheel further to the right and around we went with the rear of the car swinging to the left. As we came around on the second spin the front end of the car just collected the guard rail between pit lane and the track. Another two feet and he would have cleared it. He had two possible corrections that could have been made from the time he took his foot off the brake, go back to the brake or step on the gas and blow the corner, turning the steering when he did with the rear wheels unloaded and in compression braking wasn't a valid option. $15K in damages and he drove the car home. Viper Hoods are astoundingly expensive to replace or repair.
A year later I was riding in a BMW B level student (great driver) going into the same turn. He was doing 135 mph downhill when he hit the brake pedal at the 350 ft mark. That is when he told me NO Brakes. A lot goes through your mind then and there isn't a lot of time and I had to figure out which instruction would work best for us. I told him to spin the car and we went spinning off the end of the track and through 200 ft of asphalt run off area and hit the tire wall going backwards. He had also pulled the parking brake and locked the rear wheels so they were sliding backwards the last 50 ft or so. All that happened was he broke a tail light lens. The left front brake hose pulled out of its fitting where it fastened to the caliper. At VIR I was riding in 98 M3 with a driver who hadn't driven on the track in the rain. He had good tires and was following two other cars at a moderate speed into the Hog Pen dip when the rear end of the car came around to the left at about 35 to 40 mph. I am not sure what caused that but I suspect he wussed out and lifted off the throttle right at the wrong time. He reacted correctly by burying his foot on the brake and I thought we were going to slide off the left side of the track and be OK when suddenly the car (which was pointing toward the right side of the track) suddenly shot forward, up the hill and head on into the guard rail. I am not sure but I think he took his foot off the brake and that is what caused the car to react that way. This happened fast and didn't have time to say a word to him before we hit hard.
Another time I was riding in a 98 C5 at the NCM VIR HPDE. The student came around Turn 3 and was pushing hard toward track out but the back end broke to the right. At this point he kept his foot on the throttle and attempted to drive out of the slide. However, he didn't counter steer quick enough so when the slide got bad enough he took his foot off the throttle with the steering still pointing the wrong way and the car went from a power on over steer to an off throttle over steer which took us backwards off the left side of the track, coming to a stop next to the tire wall. If I had stuck my elbow out of the window it would have hit the tires.
When I was at VIR 6 weeks ago I had a C Level Student who was a very fast driver who always tried to get at the front of the line when we lined up in pit lane. However, he had a bad problem that didn't show up until he started catching other cars. He didn't seem to realize that he was going much faster than the cars in front of him and would constantly drive up their exhaust pipes. I thought it might be lack of forward vision but some of these incidents happened when the car was less than 2 car lengths in front of him. Going into T1 I had to yell at him to hit the brake as cars in front of him were stacking up in the braking zone. We came close to taking out a 911. Then a couple sessions and a lot of discussion later he was coming out of T7 in the uphill Esses and there was a slower car in front of him just turning in T8. We came up on that car fast and when I realized my student wasn't going to take his foot off the floor I yelled. Brake!!! He hit the brake and locked up the front wheels and went straight off the track while the car in front of us followed the track to the right we then came back onto the track as it came back to the left for T9. We did pass the car while in the grass with the brakes fully locked up. That required a trip to talk to the Chief Instructor. The student saw the car in front of him but he didn't seem to think he was gaining on it. I am pretty sure his problem wasn't being able to look ahead I think it was lack of depth perception or not being able to judge trajectories/speeds of various objects and determine their intercept points. If I hadn't been riding with him he may have had a car to car incident on the first day. He wanted to be promoted to the B Level but I said no way. You have to learn how to judge what is going to happen, look forward, interpret what you are seeing and determine the consequences if you keep heading into the situation at wide open throttle and adjust speed accordingly before you have to make an emergency maneuver.
As an Instructor I am supposed to look ahead and see situations developing but sometimes things happen suddenly and change everything. I used all of those incidents as teaching moments with those particular students but I use the failed brake hose incident with every one of my students since that happened. There isn't enough time for the student to ask what to do, for me to think of the best option in that situation and tell him what to do and then for him to react to what I told him.
Bill
Last edited by Bill Dearborn; 05-18-2017 at 08:37 PM.
I think Bill pretty much nailed it in his original reply. In my experience it's pretty uncommon to get through a well attended two-day event without a couple of offs that end up hitting something. Some events go without any incidents and some events it seems like a ton of carnage (which is reality is 5 or 6). I've never seen car to car contact at an HPDE and only know of one such occurrence - but that one was notable because of the value of the cars involved.
When you rule out mechanical failures it's most commonly the upper intermediate or lower advanced folks that have the offs. I've heard that in flying most crashes happen around 100 hours of flight time and while 100 hours of flying is probably more like 25 hours of track time the effect is the same.
It's usually someone who is a very good driver but once they step over the limits of the car they don't have the experience to react correctly to the situation. Even if they've been told the right things in classroom they just don't have the experience to react in the right way in the moment where you have fractions of a second.
When I ended up on the roof of a student's car earlier this year it was with a student who was a very good intermediate student. He was building speed and I was comfortable that he wasn't going to do something stupid. However, when he went in to a fast turn a little early and a little hot I felt the car yaw and said "open the wheel" but he instead tried to turn in more to avoid going in the gravel on the outside of the turn. The result was that we took a ride in to a tire wall and over on to the roof. It happened very quick and frankly once we were pointed at the tire wall there wasn't anything anyone could do about it.
What worries me most at track days is the mechanical failure either of my own car or another car ahead of me. I've had more than one occasion to come up on oil or coolant in a corner and sometimes it feels like more luck than skill to get through it.
Here are some examples of driver mistakes that can end badly. At Watkins Glen exiting Turn 1 (much better after a lot of changes over the last 20 years) can bite a person when exiting the turn with the car running up on the rumble strip which has a crown in it. Once you are on that rumble strip (especially if your tires are on the outside of the crown) you have placed the loaded tires on a lower grip surface so trying to bring the car back onto the asphalt by turning the steering to the right can result in a sudden sharp right hand turn when the outside tire finally gets back on the asphalt. That usually results in a totaled car with the front end about 4 ft shorter than it was a few seconds before. Same goes for Turn 10 with the car turning to the left instead and track out on Turn 8. Instructors usually spend time with their students making sure they know what to do when they get caught out there since the normal reaction usually results in damage. The same thing happens on highways. It gets all caught up in lower grip surfaces, climbing the pavement edge (where you encounter an edge) or people who jump on the throttle or lift too suddenly. A bunch of variables that all depend on the speed of the car and how the driver reacts in that OH, **** moment. I was riding with a student in a Viper braking into T1 at the Glen, he was on line and going in the dip toward the apex of the turn when he left off the brake. The car suddenly felt like it was floating to me. I yelled Brake, Brake, Brake but he turned the steering wheel further to the right and around we went with the rear of the car swinging to the left. As we came around on the second spin the front end of the car just collected the guard rail between pit lane and the track. Another two feet and he would have cleared it. He had two possible corrections that could have been made from the time he took his foot off the brake, go back to the brake or step on the gas and blow the corner, turning the steering when he did with the rear wheels unloaded and in compression braking wasn't a valid option. $15K in damages and he drove the car home. Viper Hoods are astoundingly expensive to replace or repair.
As an Instructor I am supposed to look ahead and see situations developing but sometimes things happen suddenly and change everything. I used all of those incidents as teaching moments with those particular students but I use the failed brake hose incident with every one of my students since that happened. There isn't enough time for the student to ask what to do, for me to think of the best option in that situation and tell him what to do and then for him to react to what I told him.
Bill
Good reading Bill and thanks, as I get the car prepped for my first few days at Watkins Glen this coming Monday. Never hurts to read of some real life humbling circumstances.
Very good info in this thread. So far at Watkins this year I've seen mostly mechanical failures and cars going home due to lack of preparation for track work. This week a professional IMSA driver in a very fast Roush Mustang drove straight into the wall at 11 after a tire failure and totaled the car. An open wheel race car went into the wall at 8. Not sure what happened but he was buried under tires when I went by him. A number of other drivers have traded paint with the Armco but nothing serious that I have seen. A number of offs at the bus stop, usually due to inadequate braking and overcooking the back straight, which is a common occurrence. Other than a few pro crashes, it has been a relatively safe (thank God) season so far with only a few really bad incidents that I have seen. This is in 10 days so far. At the end of last season I watched two cars do exactly what Bill said at turn 8 and turn 1. They made the corner but at track out spun the car from the rumble strips, turned back towards the corner and straight into the wall. Also watched a Mustang at turn 11 trail brake into the corner, lose control and hit the armco at track out. Car done for.
The novice drivers are usually super safe to the point of outright fear and not much seems to happen except mechanical failures and early departures. The advanced groups I go in are all very fast but VERY aware, with late passing occurring everywhere on the track. Most importantly they know how to escape bad situations and anticipate them. Advanced intermediate has the most problems, as others have said, as very fast drivers who know the line get into situations they aren't prepared to get out of. Usually happens as the limits of the car are approached/exceeded, which is typically beyond the limits of the driver skill. This is my biggest fear for myself. I am turning times in the 2:08 - 2:09 on R compound on my C6Z and feel the limit. But I have not experienced as many bad situations to feel comfortable escaping them all. It is a grim reminder to me to "back-off", especially as the day progresses and the red mist appears. Same thing first thing in the morning. "Cold tires, cold mind" etc. I am especially careful both early and late in the day.
Mad Dog: I will be down at the Glen with TrackMasters this Monday the 22nd and the 23rd as well in a blue C6Z. Would love to catch up with you!
Good comments by Bill and others. I haven't been on the track in 15 years. I was going to take the C7 to VIR this year, but I decided not to because I just don't enjoy it like I used to. I have done a few BMW performance center events (driving their cars) and that was fun, but it got old fast. For me, anyway.
However, back in the day, I've had several offs as a student; the worse was at Road Atlanta where I hit the wall, hard. As an instructor, I had two offs that resulted in crashes; one was an idiot who lifted at the wrong time and spun us off (nothing I could do about that) and the other was an excellent student who put a wheel off which put us into a spin off into the wall. As an instructor, I should have been more conservative and warned him that he was going too far toward the edge of the pavement. My bad. And my last time on track as an instructor.
So anyway... I think every track I've been on, and there have been a lot of them, there has been a crash of some type at some point. Some were minor fender benders into the ARMCO, some cars went turtle, others were bad enough to injure someone in the car. It's a dangerous hobby.
The part that always scared me the most was the fluid on the track, typically coolant but often oil. Coolant is nearly as slippery. Not much you can do if you're in a turn at high speed and lose traction.
Good comments by Bill and others. I haven't been on the track in 15 years. I was going to take the C7 to VIR this year, but I decided not to because I just don't enjoy it like I used to. I have done a few BMW performance center events (driving their cars) and that was fun, but it got old fast. For me, anyway.
However, back in the day, I've had several offs as a student; the worse was at Road Atlanta where I hit the wall, hard. As an instructor, I had two offs that resulted in crashes; one was an idiot who lifted at the wrong time and spun us off (nothing I could do about that) and the other was an excellent student who put a wheel off which put us into a spin off into the wall. As an instructor, I should have been more conservative and warned him that he was going too far toward the edge of the pavement. My bad. And my last time on track as an instructor.
So anyway... I think every track I've been on, and there have been a lot of them, there has been a crash of some type at some point. Some were minor fender benders into the ARMCO, some cars went turtle, others were bad enough to injure someone in the car. It's a dangerous hobby.
The part that always scared me the most was the fluid on the track, typically coolant but often oil. Coolant is nearly as slippery. Not much you can do if you're in a turn at high speed and lose traction.
05-18-2017, 12:07 PM
Crashes during HPDE
We're not making any money out on track, so I run probably around 8/10ths. Only had one off, and realized that the Autox habit of 10/10ths (timed event, relatively slow speeds and almost zero chance of damage) had kicked back in and I was pushing. Since then I've had a bunch of fun, worn out parts, but not damaged any. Point by's to anyone that comes up behind me, and back off from the rare nut-job in front of me that doesn't want to let anyone by.
