fatbillybob

What do you guys think? Has GM given up on the C7 Corvette? WE know that manual gearboxes are a thing of the past in pro racing. Look at F1 and the date of last manual. We know DCT, F1, and high pressure automatics are all the rage. Porsche has invested heavy in the PDK version of the double clutch. GM and Ford invented heavy in the joint 10sp auto that shifts almost at DCT speeds with the reliability of an automatic. That's huge for the casual trackday market daily driver car.

We know the vette C8 mid engine is coming. We know the A8 corvette tranny is sort of a kludge that needed a different torque converter to fit the chassis and does not work very well. There are any number of threads on it. We know the A10 will not fit in the C7 chassis. We know the C7Z06 is not track worthy. We know GM developed the heck out of the camaro to give us the ZL1 1LE Camaro track weapon that does not overheat and gives us the 10speed gearbox. Where is the C7 development of similar?? C7 racing just does not seem to be very pervasive like the quicker adoption of the C5 and C6 platform.

So what do you guys think? Are racers and trackguys just waiting for the C8? Is Gm giving up on the C7?

sd7ss

I think if you check carefully, you'll find the 1LE is only available with a manual transmission. The non ILE ZL1 is available with the ten speed automatic you mentioned. Reason for the 1LE going with the manual only was weight savings.

Certainly looks like manual transmissions generally are a dying option.
I am still enjoying a manual, but I recognize the new automatics are here to stay.

rocsvette

From my discussions with BGAP people, they only build 20% of the C7s with the 7mn. When the C5 first came out GM planned for 25% manuals at the time Tremec was moving the plant to Mexico. The demand was over 40% and for a while it was on constraint until they could ramp up to meet demand. With demand dropping it's not hard to see them go the way of the other mfg and drop it, especially if demand keeps dropping and considering the cost to certify the car including crash testing for a small element.

Mordeth

You may be right, but there is ample evidence of the development and pending release of a C7 ZR1, which will likely be a formidable track weapon. From everything I have seen, cooling is likely being addressed, aero and perhaps more power. Who know what else. Even if it is a C7 Z06X, there is something in the works.

So if all of these pictures and videos that we see are true regarding the car being a ZR1, then GM has not given up on the C7 platform and is in fact developing it further. The car has already been at the Nurburgring and other tracks around the country.

I own a C6Z that is tracked and a C7Z that is waxed. If they release a C7 ZR1 like I believe they willl, then as pretty as my C7Z is, it leaves the garage to make some room.

Poor-sha

Fatbillybob - I've been reading your posts for a long time have tremendous respect for you but it seems like you've conflated a few things and I think your post is overly pessimistic.

As far as manual trans go - I think we all see the writing on the wall that they are going away. For street cars I try to only buy manual trans because an automatic makes the mind-numbing driving on the street even more so but I'm finding fewer and fewer options. I wouldn't be surprised to see the C8 be an auto/DCT only car but even Porsche relented on that due to enthusiast outcry.

As far as the C7 Z06 being a failure as a track car I couldn't disagree more. Yes, there is less thermal headroom but the issues are mostly confined to the A8s, people tracking in temps well over 100F, and people that think they need to artificially keep the RPMS high to make power. I would consider the secondary radiator that comes on the 2017 cars necessary for someone driving the car at a high level in high temps.

I had that on my 2015 C7Z and put over 120 track hours on the car at tracks like VIR, Summit Point (both Main and Shenandoah), and Autobahn South without the car ever overheating. I'll post below a video of a full session at VIR in 95F heat where the car turned sub 2 min times and no overheating. These days I see a lot of C7Zs at the track and most seem to be functioning well.

As far as the racing is concerned, it seems like all GM cares about with Corvettes is the GTLM program and we know that all the generations of that car have been a long way from the showroom. GM did release the T1 suspension kit for the C7 and Spring Mountain appears to have built some of the "Corvette Challenge" C7s although I don't know what happened to that series. A buddy of mine did get to drive one a month or so ago as part of private instruction and they didn't have to do much to the car.

For the folks racing in NASA and SCCA I'm going to assume that the issue is bang for the buck. I joined the Corvette community early in the C6 run and I recall having the same thoughts back then. It seemed like most racers stayed with the C5 until later in the C6 generation because it was cheaper and a lot of folks seem to have already invested in that platform. I've not done W2W racing but I do keep watching to see if the C7 starts getting traction in any series as I love the platform and it might be enough to get me to jump in. Unfortunately, it's not clear there's much reason to go to a C7 when the rules will just equalize any advantage to the platform.

My two cents.

SouthernSon

Nice run Poor-sha. Even with more track out room on the new layout, sub 2:00 mins are really moving. Perhaps more track drivers ought to speak up about the track ability of the C7Z.

Poor-sha

Thanks! I managed a new PB last weekend of a 1:59.06 on the OEM Cup 2 tires but it was only in the upper 70's out. So close to a :58 and I believe the car has :57's in it.

Mordeth

Wow Sean, that is super impressive. Glad to see you are putting the new Z through her paces. I've never been to VIR but I am at Watkins Glen every 2 weeks and I talk to guys there all the time that are at VIR regularly. I don't know a single one putting up times like that, and they are fast drivers in fast cars. Thanks as always for the vids.

djnice

I like how Poor-sha said fatbillybob conflated a few things. For example, around here the A8 has more problems in pickups than C7's. So I don't think you can blame it on the squash TC. Also, 10 speed? Are they using 10 gears in a DCT or in F1? No, 10 gears is for fuel economy.


Sha, thanks for making me feel better about missing 5th last week.

Bad_AX

The Z06 heating issues seem to have largely died away, and I expect the soon-to-be-revealed ZR1 (or whatever it will be called) is going to move the performance envelope more into Viper ACR territory, so I don't think GM has given up on the C7 by any stretch of the imagination. I do think it has been a harder car to develop for additional performance due the inherit weight constraints and cooling considerations. Brake cooling has been a bigger challenge with this model and it seems that GM did not leave much scope for the aftermarket to address this area. Unlike the C6 Z06, there aren't big targets of opportunity to substantially reduce weight like aluminum alloy chassis, magnesium castings, and carbon fiber bodywork. Much of this technology is in the C7 from the outset but it is still about 300 lbs heavier on average than the model it replaces. Tires and CC brakes did as much to improve the ZR1 as the addition of 130 HP, and again this is built into the C7 Z06. The next C7 performance variant appears to have a much more highly developed aero package and something under the hood is requiring a really large increase in the center hood bulge. Bigger supercharger, larger intercoolers for both? We will have to wait and see.

I very much hope the next generation of Corvette will significantly reduce weight allowing all the other systems will operate much more efficiently.

Bill Dearborn

If we could get that 300 lbs back they wouldn't have to increase HP, could live better with the decreased brake cooling in the C7 and the car would be phenomenal in the corners.

Bill

KnightDriveTV

I don't think the "writing is on the wall"...GM will build what people want to buy. In the late 70's and early 80's, Corvette had NO manual production cars. You could definitely say the writing was on the wall then.

Today, look in contrast to cars like Miata, and look at cars like 911R and the new GT3 Touring...these cars are the result of demand. As long as buyers want to drive a manual Corvette, GM will give them that opportunity. They are in the business of selling units, not telling the public what they want them to drive.

Yes, DCT's have spiked some demand in a newer generation to let go of the three pedal and enjoy the benefits. BMW has also recognized though, that the American torque converter automatics have validity. DCT's are not necessarily superior, and the A10 is quite a transmission. I don't think 15 yrs ago, anyone could've envisioned such performance and shift demand from an automatic.

Anyway, to the OP's opening statement...I think there is a lot wrong with that. The Z06 is far from a "known failure" on the track...track data showed that only a small minority of users could push the car hard enough, in harsh enough conditions to really have it be a problem. Factory prep, and not overrevving the car/underutilizing its torque, not driving in "D" mode, etc all helped the car manage itself in high temps. Could it be better...sure...but a lot of folks were running their Z06's on track and doing just fine. C8 will OFFER a mid engine, but the entire Corvette lineup is not going to solely be mid-engine.

Through the 80's and even the 90's, production numbers on manuals dipped very low for some models...this is a demographics issue. If you have track driving enthusiasts, many are going to want a manual, but the track rats who buy Corvettes represent a small percentage. I don't think, with a car like Corvette, anyone should expect more than 10-20% of them be manuals. People want them to tour in, go on a weekend drive with their gray hairs in the wind...they don't want manuals. There is a driving enthusiast core who does...Porsche tried to eliminate the manual and the enthusiasts spoke.

93Polo

'82 was the only year offered without a manual option.

rocsvette

I think California lost the stick option around 1980 before the rest of the country. You are correct, by 82 no manuals and the first year of the Crossfire Injection, a whole other issue.

93Polo

'80 was the year of the California 305 which I believe was not offered with a 4spd, dark times....

'81 the 350 returned to California but I don't know if the 4spd did.

SouthernSon

When I think of automobiles in the early 80's I get sad.

Supercharged111

I realized in conversation yesterday that the Camaro died around the time the C5Z came online. For a while the Corvette was the only track worthy V8 car Chevy offered. When it did return, in typical GM fashion it made less power than the Corvette and was likely held back in other areas too. Now the gloves are off and I have to wonder if GM isn't slowly letting the Camaro fill a place in the market once only fit for the Corvette. My question then becomes this: do they sell somewhat redundantly capable cars? Or do they finally see that Camaro and Corvette buyers don't cross modulate as much as they had once feared?

fatbillybob

I think you and I are on the same page. But you are more articulate.

It just seems crazy to me that in my search for a new racecar my 16 y/o C5Z design is still competitive. And when you think about it the C5 really goes back to 1997! So in 20 years of technology we got a corvette that overheats on track and weighs like 300lbs more.

Bad_AX

Dodge is keeping the aging Challenger platform relevant and in the press by continually ratcheting up power and performance. Chevrolet is using the same tactic to try and shore up sagging sales of the 6th Generation Camaro. The 6th Gen Camaro is likely going to go down as big sales disappointment and will take a long time to develop a more appealing car. In the meantime, they can chuck a bunch of performance equipment at it to entice buyers to overlook all the things that suck about the 6th gen. C7 Corvette sales have remained strong and I don't think they need to worry about cannibalizing sales too much. The new C7 Super Bloatmobile (ZR1?) will be outrageous looking, expensive and heavy, but it will continue to wear the GM performance crown. Like Tadge said of the Nissan GT-R a few years ago, he is now making his own "elephant dance".

fatbillybob

LOL! That was funny. I'm still hoping for increased GM C7 massaging and I just might pull the trigger on it for my next racecar.