bags142

Saw on social media come july 2018 that PCA will require roll bar for harnesses and no longer allows just harness bar with harness.

Anybody else confirm it?

I think a few other groups will follow suit. Maybe time to get out a c5 for me... I don't want a roll cage in there

Dan H.

Here's the email I received from pca Potomac yesterday. Not sure what other pca regions will be doing this year.

Hello Drivers,

Thanks for coming out to play with PCA Potomac in 2017! We hope to see you again this upcoming season and thought you might be interested in a couple important rule changes for our DE program:

EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY: a HANS (or comparable) device is required when using a harness.
EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2018 (in anticipation of the forthcoming mandate from PCA National): occupants in vehicles equipped with only a "harness bar" will no longer be allowed to use harnesses; a roll bar must be added. For convertibles / cabriolets, a harness bar + factory pop-up roll bars or fixed hoops is acceptable providing the harness bar installation does not interfere with operation of the pop-up roll bar or fixed hoops. (And these cases must also comply with the "2 inch rule". See here: https://pcapotomac.org/activities/dr...let-or-boxster)
Also keep in mind that our long-standing rule of "equal restraints" for both driver and passenger remains in effect alongside the new rules above. For example, if either occupant does not have or is not using HANS (in a car with harnesses and roll bar), then neither occupant may use HANS or harnesses, and instead, both must use OEM seat belts.

If you have any questions or would like further information please contact tech@pcapotomac.org or DEchair@pcapotomac.org.

PCA Potomac's commitment to safety is paramount and we believe these rule changes will only strengthen that resolve.

Thank you and we'll see you at the track!
The PCA Potomac DE Committee

Sent for PCA - Potomac, The Founders' Region - DE to Dan Hopkins at dan.hopkins4@gmail.com, subscriber since May 2014 (Unsubscribe)

Delivered by MotorsportReg.com, 15 Arcangel Way, San Rafael, California 94903, USA. Report abuse.

Dan H.

I'm planning on a full roll cage in the next 12 months, so this doesn't sting to much. I like the safety aspect of having that kind of protection.

I don't love the concept of putting the oem seats and belts back in for events this year should the whole DE ecosystem move this way in 2018.

bags142

Thanks for verifying!!

I agree, I don't like the concept of the crappy oem seat and 3 pt. I still street drive my vette OFTEN so the cage does not work for me. I only do 4-6 weekends a year. The roll cage could work on the street but I lose storage aspect, so I can't road trip anymore.

I expect several org's to follow suit. I also expect 1 or 2 to NOT conform. But, I don't wanna have to really think about who I sign up with.

This is really making me think about moving from the c5z to a c6 or 6th gen mustang gt and rocking oem seats and belts in those.

Time will tell

Cap'n Pete

Wow, that's ridiculous, IMO.

So it's "ok" to use a harness bar if you have a convertible, but if you have a hard-top car, then you need a full roll bar??? (...yes, I understand, that Porsche convertibles and some other brand convertibles have hoops that pop-up in a rollover).

Maybe Porsche hard-tops aren't as well constructed as Corvettes, but all modern 'Vettes have what is essentially a factory "roll bar" built-in.
What I gather from some anecdotal evidence, suggests they are truly EFFECTIVE, and have helped prevent serious injuries to individuals who have had the misfortune of flipping their Corvette (on a race track or otherwise).



Looks like adequate protection to me. No, it's not a bonafide "cage", and no, I would not go wheel-to-wheel racing in a stock Corvette, but for the average track rat who wants to participate in HPDE's, I'd say it's as good as (or better than) any other car on the track for providing real roll-over protection.

I hope that the HPDE industry doesn't all follow suit.

Just my $.02.

fmcokc

I know of at least one organization that does not allow harness bars but makes an exception for corvettes. Their thought process is that the factory hoop serves as a roll bar and the harness bar is attached to the hoop.

You might see if PCA is doing the same thing for Corvettes since they are somewhat unique in that aspect.

"a harness bar + factory pop-up roll bars or fixed hoops is acceptable"

lobsterroboto

The factory hoop is questionable.

I also believe a part of this decisions i that quite a few harness bars have very questionable mounting or just overall aren't designed for an impact. (the same could be said for quite a few "bolt in rollbars")

They're less a safety thing and more to hold you in the seat better with a harness.

I think that the rollbar requirement shouldn't really be a thing until you're in the higher run groups or whatever but I personally am more of an all or nothing kind of person.

Racingswh

Harnesses and BK harness bar. Not sure 3 points would have worked as well.

Nowanker

Don't like it, but I can understand the PCA decision from a liability standpoint. I expect other groups might follow...
Harness bar/harness/hans = safer in a frontal impact than 3 point belts.
Harness bar/harness/hans = way more dangerous in a roll over than 3 point belts.
Both points of view have merit, but after doing a whole sh*tload of trackdays, I have yet to see a violent rollover. Lots of pretty hard frontal impacts though!
The factory seat and 3 points were so sad in my Z that I thought I would fall out of the car... But a cage isn't going to happen in my mostly street car. I'll have to take my chances with the harness bar and race seat until the 'real' race car is back.

Racingswh

I am curious if there any empirical evidence stating this to be true?

In my experience all of the roll over's I have seen or been apart of the harness bar/ harness combinations have always fared just fine. That said equally fine have been the three points in roll overs.

Our Driver that died at one of our RTR PCA events was Hansless in a 3 point and his neck was snapped as he went straight into the wall in 6 at Watkins Glen. Porsche Boxster.

I will continue to wear my Hans and harnesses in the Viper and take my chances. I am caging the C6Z so this rule won't affect that car.

If they don't want me to drive / instruct with them because I value safety systems I have proven out to myself to be effective through real world experiences I am cool with that too.

fatbillybob

Have you ever looked at the mandated PCA curriculum? Then look at everyone else and how easy it is to get on track and go fast? All I can say is this is just noise. "Porsche people" Nothing more needs to be said...

Nowanker

Just to clarify...
Those are the arguments being presented in the for/against harness bar discussion.
I can see the disadvantages of being strapped firmly upright without a cage, while flipping Joey Hand style.
But I think there are a lot more instances of slamming the wall without a hans to gather data from...

Racingswh

I would disagree with someone who said he would have been safer with a 3 point OEM belt and no HANS as compared to a harness bar and harness restraint system. If you gave me the choice and told me I must be in this crash and you can wear a regular seat belt or be strapped in with a harness system and HANS I would choose the latter every single time.



Say nothing of the control over the vehicle that's gained for the average driver from being securely harnessed.

Also think of the lateral movement you have in a side impact with just OEM belts and no HANS?

Seems to me the perceived benefit which may have no actual merit whatsoever is greatly outweighed by the rest of the incidents that commonly occur and more obvious potential dangers present.

Nowanker

^^ agree completely.
I'll play the odds here...

Poor-sha

I can't remember what thread this was in but part of the concern is that most harness bars are mounted to where the factory shoulder belts mount. Those mounting locations aren't designed for loads of two people pulling the bar forward in a violent impact and there have been instances of the bar shearing loose. If the bar mount fails then you have no seat belts.

I just watched the webinar from a year or so ago with MSF and Simpson talking about their hybrid head and neck restraint. Perhaps the most frightening things I heard in that talk was that most OEM seats and seatbelts are only designed to work up to a 30 MPH impact in to a solid object (~25Gs) whereas the FIA testing for harnesses and seats was 70Gs.

Fortunately, most tracks have measures in place to slow the rate of decel so you're not hitting a an immovable object. When I went off at SP we were doing 75-80 MPH and didn't slow until we hit the tire wall. The impact didn't even set the air bags off but we did hit at an angle and climb up on the tire wall.

fatbillybob

I don't think that's true. OEM survivability according to an ex-toyota engineer I know is about 50g's which is a 45mph delta. That would mean the OEM build for more than that. Racecar black boxes routinely see survivability and often no injury over 100g's.

Probably the porsche issue is one of standards. Porsche people are all about standards and following the rules. Their HPDE program reeks of it. The OEM set-up is a known standard. When you allow people to dual use a car you get all kinds of very questionable applications of safety gear. When you full race prep a car with cage you again have a closer "standard" where a sanctioning body like PCA sets rules for how thick the rollcage metal what kind of door bars, halo seats and right side nets etc.


There is no question you can make a dual use car safer on track with harness bar, harness, and hans as supported from the well known safety guru, Joe Marko from HMS motorsports. But it is also very easy to make something very unsafe and less safe than OEM. Many drivers just don't know it.

I can understand both sides of the issue. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Dan H.

I was happy to see mark hicks response from Chin regarding pcas rule change

The restrictions described have been implemented by one single PCA chapter. That is not indicative of a national trend. Chin Track Days will continue to follow the guidelines shown on Chin's existing tech inspection document. We always advocate for equal restraints for driver and instructor. If it's a solo qualified driver, then, it's up to him.

bags142

EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY: a HANS (or comparable) device is required when using a harness.
EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2018 (in anticipation of the forthcoming mandate from PCA National)

Soloontario

Safety is all relative. If every street car was designed with a cage, containment seat, fire system, harness and head and neck restraint, there might be fewer deaths on the road but only if everyone put on their harnesses, head and neck restraints etc at all times. Tough to change the air con or radio but it would be safe.

Wheel to wheel racing is the most likely to involve car to car contact and the loss of control which occurs with that and hence needs the best safety devices.

Those of us with dual purpose cars have to hit some form of compromise that we can live with. Cages and roll bars are no slight alteration of Corvettes and it is obvious that most people with dual purpose cars don't want to go to the high real cost (including decreased resale value) of a roll bar.

So the real question is, what is your relative risk of injury using a harness and HANS type device with a harness bar vs using OEM belts when involved in an incident. Most would agree that frontal impact injuries will be less using a HANS device with a properly installed harness bar. I think the results are NOT in re the relative safety of a harness and HANS vs OEM 3 points in a roll over. Either way, I would suggest that frontal impacts are a lot more common than roll overs and my personal preference is to prevent the injuries in the more common incidents which mean HANS device for me which means harness bar. (I am not convinced that the hybrid head and neck restraints work as well and a full harness holds you in the seat much better than a 3 point OEM which can help prevent injuries in other types of impacts)

As for the liability issue, it doesn't look good to me to tell people that they CANNOT use a head and neck restraint because you, as the organizer, have decided that the potential injuries in a potential roll over outweigh the benefits of a harness/ head and neck restraint for your event. Gonna need a lot of good data in court with that one and good luck if someone suffers a severe injury that could have been alleviated by the use of a HANS which you did not allow them to wear.

As for the in-car video of a roll over above in post #8, that appears like a VERY unsafe track. Minimal guard rails and curbs with trees very close to the track surface.

FAUEE

How are they going to decide what is a "roll bar" compared to a harness bar? It has to extend above your head? It has to be mounted to the frame? It has to be welded in? It seems hard to police and enforce.


I get it, cars that people with no skill are bringing out there are getting faster amd faster, and there'
A lot of cheap crap ​​​​harness bars out there (universal ebay ones - super cheap and probably totally unsafe).