Ford Brake Fluid?
04-17-2018, 10:15 PM
#1
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St. Jude Donor '13
Ford Brake Fluid?
Trying to find the best compromise fluid for our C7 Z51, which doesn't do HPDE but does do autocross and fun runs down the canyons sometimes, fluid changed once per year in the humid Midwest..
When doing HPDE on our stock C5 on the stock runflats/pads, I used the Ford Heavy Duty brake fluid; changed it out before each event but left it in afterwards for up to 8 months if no other events.
On our C7 Z51, the Ford fluid meets the GM specs for track use but should also be acceptable for street use. However, I've heard comments that the Ford fluid absorbs moisture more rapidly than its DOT3 rating would imply and therefore is not a good street fluid. That seems a little unlikely, but ???
Others have claimed that starting a few years ago, Ford changed the formulation and the boiling parts have dropped from the 290'/540' of yore. Any truth in that?
Finally, the newer plastic bottle for the Ford fluid makes me suspicious about moisture absorption even before the bottle is opened.
Tadge commented on racing brake fluids absorbing water more rapidly than street fluids, when discussing why the C7 is not allowed to use them full time:
Tadge answered:
Koranke, your question raises the exact considerations we take into account when making brake fluid recommendations. Placing customer safety as our highest priority, we advise people to replace the brake fluid after a track event and to revert to street fluid for use on the street. Customers vary tremendously in how hard they use brakes... And it is not necessarily correlated to their lap times. Our professional endurance race car drivers are actually relatively easy on brakes. Some customers are very hard on brakes and end up putting lots of heat into the pads, calipers and fluid. When brake fluid boils or comes near the boiling point, it makes it more likely to boil on the next brake application. Since there is no sure-fire way to assess the condition of the fluid after a track event, we have to recommend replacement as the safest possible alternative.
Your question mentions water absorption. While counterintuitive at first, a small amount of water absorption is actually desirable. The water helps activate the corrosion inhibitors in the brake fluids that help keep brake system components chemically stable. And, just like with antifreeze, these inhibitors are gradually depleted in use, which is the primary reason brake fluid needs to be changed. DOT 3/4 glycol-based fluids will absorb water at different rates and, of course, more than a trace of water starts to be a bad thing. Race fluids, by their nature, generally absorb water more quickly than street brake fluids which can dramatically reduce their boiling point, potentially below that of our factory fluid. This reduction can lead to risk of boiling fluid at lower brake energy. So, again with safety in mind, we recommend going back to street fluid for street driving to avoid the water uptake more likely in race fluids.
When doing HPDE on our stock C5 on the stock runflats/pads, I used the Ford Heavy Duty brake fluid; changed it out before each event but left it in afterwards for up to 8 months if no other events.
On our C7 Z51, the Ford fluid meets the GM specs for track use but should also be acceptable for street use. However, I've heard comments that the Ford fluid absorbs moisture more rapidly than its DOT3 rating would imply and therefore is not a good street fluid. That seems a little unlikely, but ???
Others have claimed that starting a few years ago, Ford changed the formulation and the boiling parts have dropped from the 290'/540' of yore. Any truth in that?
Finally, the newer plastic bottle for the Ford fluid makes me suspicious about moisture absorption even before the bottle is opened.
Tadge commented on racing brake fluids absorbing water more rapidly than street fluids, when discussing why the C7 is not allowed to use them full time:
Tadge answered:
Koranke, your question raises the exact considerations we take into account when making brake fluid recommendations. Placing customer safety as our highest priority, we advise people to replace the brake fluid after a track event and to revert to street fluid for use on the street. Customers vary tremendously in how hard they use brakes... And it is not necessarily correlated to their lap times. Our professional endurance race car drivers are actually relatively easy on brakes. Some customers are very hard on brakes and end up putting lots of heat into the pads, calipers and fluid. When brake fluid boils or comes near the boiling point, it makes it more likely to boil on the next brake application. Since there is no sure-fire way to assess the condition of the fluid after a track event, we have to recommend replacement as the safest possible alternative.
Your question mentions water absorption. While counterintuitive at first, a small amount of water absorption is actually desirable. The water helps activate the corrosion inhibitors in the brake fluids that help keep brake system components chemically stable. And, just like with antifreeze, these inhibitors are gradually depleted in use, which is the primary reason brake fluid needs to be changed. DOT 3/4 glycol-based fluids will absorb water at different rates and, of course, more than a trace of water starts to be a bad thing. Race fluids, by their nature, generally absorb water more quickly than street brake fluids which can dramatically reduce their boiling point, potentially below that of our factory fluid. This reduction can lead to risk of boiling fluid at lower brake energy. So, again with safety in mind, we recommend going back to street fluid for street driving to avoid the water uptake more likely in race fluids.
Last edited by Gearhead Jim; 04-17-2018 at 10:20 PM.
04-17-2018, 10:34 PM
#2
Safety Car
Trying to find the best compromise fluid for our C7 Z51, which doesn't do HPDE but does do autocross and fun runs down the canyons sometimes, fluid changed once per year in the humid Midwest..
When doing HPDE on our stock C5 on the stock runflats/pads, I used the Ford Heavy Duty brake fluid; changed it out before each event but left it in afterwards for up to 8 months if no other events.
On our C7 Z51, the Ford fluid meets the GM specs for track use but should also be acceptable for street use. However, I've heard comments that the Ford fluid absorbs moisture more rapidly than its DOT3 rating would imply and therefore is not a good street fluid. That seems a little unlikely, but ???
I used Valvoline, when changing for each event. The Last 3 years I have changed
Others have claimed that starting a few years ago, Ford changed the formulation and the boiling parts have dropped from the 290'/540' of yore. Any truth in that?
Finally, the newer plastic bottle for the Ford fluid makes me suspicious about moisture absorption even before the bottle is opened.
Tadge commented on racing brake fluids absorbing water more rapidly than street fluids, when discussing why the C7 is not allowed to use them full time:
Tadge answered:
Koranke, your question raises the exact considerations we take into account when making brake fluid recommendations. Placing customer safety as our highest priority, we advise people to replace the brake fluid after a track event and to revert to street fluid for use on the street. Customers vary tremendously in how hard they use brakes... And it is not necessarily correlated to their lap times. Our professional endurance race car drivers are actually relatively easy on brakes. Some customers are very hard on brakes and end up putting lots of heat into the pads, calipers and fluid. When brake fluid boils or comes near the boiling point, it makes it more likely to boil on the next brake application. Since there is no sure-fire way to assess the condition of the fluid after a track event, we have to recommend replacement as the safest possible alternative.
Your question mentions water absorption. While counterintuitive at first, a small amount of water absorption is actually desirable. The water helps activate the corrosion inhibitors in the brake fluids that help keep brake system components chemically stable. And, just like with antifreeze, these inhibitors are gradually depleted in use, which is the primary reason brake fluid needs to be changed. DOT 3/4 glycol-based fluids will absorb water at different rates and, of course, more than a trace of water starts to be a bad thing. Race fluids, by their nature, generally absorb water more quickly than street brake fluids which can dramatically reduce their boiling point, potentially below that of our factory fluid. This reduction can lead to risk of boiling fluid at lower brake energy. So, again with safety in mind, we recommend going back to street fluid for street driving to avoid the water uptake more likely in race fluids.
When doing HPDE on our stock C5 on the stock runflats/pads, I used the Ford Heavy Duty brake fluid; changed it out before each event but left it in afterwards for up to 8 months if no other events.
On our C7 Z51, the Ford fluid meets the GM specs for track use but should also be acceptable for street use. However, I've heard comments that the Ford fluid absorbs moisture more rapidly than its DOT3 rating would imply and therefore is not a good street fluid. That seems a little unlikely, but ???
I used Valvoline, when changing for each event. The Last 3 years I have changed
Others have claimed that starting a few years ago, Ford changed the formulation and the boiling parts have dropped from the 290'/540' of yore. Any truth in that?
Finally, the newer plastic bottle for the Ford fluid makes me suspicious about moisture absorption even before the bottle is opened.
Tadge commented on racing brake fluids absorbing water more rapidly than street fluids, when discussing why the C7 is not allowed to use them full time:
Tadge answered:
Koranke, your question raises the exact considerations we take into account when making brake fluid recommendations. Placing customer safety as our highest priority, we advise people to replace the brake fluid after a track event and to revert to street fluid for use on the street. Customers vary tremendously in how hard they use brakes... And it is not necessarily correlated to their lap times. Our professional endurance race car drivers are actually relatively easy on brakes. Some customers are very hard on brakes and end up putting lots of heat into the pads, calipers and fluid. When brake fluid boils or comes near the boiling point, it makes it more likely to boil on the next brake application. Since there is no sure-fire way to assess the condition of the fluid after a track event, we have to recommend replacement as the safest possible alternative.
Your question mentions water absorption. While counterintuitive at first, a small amount of water absorption is actually desirable. The water helps activate the corrosion inhibitors in the brake fluids that help keep brake system components chemically stable. And, just like with antifreeze, these inhibitors are gradually depleted in use, which is the primary reason brake fluid needs to be changed. DOT 3/4 glycol-based fluids will absorb water at different rates and, of course, more than a trace of water starts to be a bad thing. Race fluids, by their nature, generally absorb water more quickly than street brake fluids which can dramatically reduce their boiling point, potentially below that of our factory fluid. This reduction can lead to risk of boiling fluid at lower brake energy. So, again with safety in mind, we recommend going back to street fluid for street driving to avoid the water uptake more likely in race fluids.
04-18-2018, 12:00 AM
#4
yeap, Ford has changed its formulation a few years back. it is no longer suitable for tracks.
Valvoline brake fluid anything is also NOT suitable for tracks
Valvoline brake fluid anything is also NOT suitable for tracks
Last edited by bellwilliam; 04-18-2018 at 12:01 AM.
04-18-2018, 10:53 AM
#5
Race Director
I run valvoline synthetic brake fluid without issues. If you'e justbdoimg autocross and canyons, it' fine. If you'e doing hpde, it' fine. If you'e doing really aggressive w2w racing, you might want something better.
04-18-2018, 12:37 PM
#6
Melting Slicks
That entirely depends on how fast someone is driving in the HPDE. Maybe for doing parade laps, but I certainly wouldn't touch the stuff if going 7/10's or more. Brake fluid isn't terribly expensive. Not sure why anyone would choose that as their point to nickel and dime something.
04-18-2018, 04:07 PM
#7
Race Director
That entirely depends on how fast someone is driving in the HPDE. Maybe for doing parade laps, but I certainly wouldn't touch the stuff if going 7/10's or more. Brake fluid isn't terribly expensive. Not sure why anyone would choose that as their point to nickel and dime something.
People can buy whatever they want, but this fluid is all they will need and can be easily bought at any local auto parts store.
Last edited by FAUEE; 04-18-2018 at 04:08 PM.
04-18-2018, 04:47 PM
#8
Valvoline 488F dry (especially with 311F wet, which means you need to flush fluid after every track) isn't good enough for any HPDE, in my opinion. I can fade ATE with 536F dry in a 130whp Spec Miata (depending on tracks of course) that tops 122mph. DE1 / DE2 don't mean the driver is any gentler on brakes than someone in DE4. Most new drivers abuse their brakes, carrying far less entry speed.
brake fluid are so cheap and you need so little of it, zero reason to not to use one with higher dry boiling point.
brake fluid are so cheap and you need so little of it, zero reason to not to use one with higher dry boiling point.
Last edited by bellwilliam; 04-18-2018 at 04:48 PM.
04-18-2018, 05:33 PM
#9
Race Director
Valvoline 488F dry (especially with 311F wet, which means you need to flush fluid after every track) isn't good enough for any HPDE, in my opinion. I can fade ATE with 536F dry in a 130whp Spec Miata (depending on tracks of course) that tops 122mph. DE1 / DE2 don't mean the driver is any gentler on brakes than someone in DE4. Most new drivers abuse their brakes, carrying far less entry speed.
brake fluid are so cheap and you need so little of it, zero reason to not to use one with higher dry boiling point.
brake fluid are so cheap and you need so little of it, zero reason to not to use one with higher dry boiling point.
I've used it in 2 C6 GS, and my C4, and never boiled it on any track day. Even Sebring in July, doesn't get much hotter than that. Even on 2 days weekends with NASA, never an issue. I would much rather have fresh Valvoline than use "better" fluids. In the humid south, it's easier to just have fresh inexpensive fluid than risk having more moisture than you expect.
04-18-2018, 10:20 PM
#11
Team Owner
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Member Since: Sep 2000
Location: Far NW 'burbs of Chicago
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St. Jude Donor '13
Race fluids, by their nature, generally absorb water more quickly than street brake fluids which can dramatically reduce their boiling point, potentially below that of our factory fluid. This reduction can lead to risk of boiling fluid at lower brake energy. So, again with safety in mind, we recommend going back to street fluid for street driving to avoid the water uptake more likely in race fluids.
Re-quoting Tadge from the first post. ^
Some people here are suggesting fluids that appear to be intended mostly for track use, and likely have the water absorption problem he wants us to avoid. I normally flush fluid now about once per year.
So what's a good compromise fluid, with reasonably high dry and wet boiling points but low water absorption? And how do we learn what the water absorption is for a particular fluid?
Re-quoting Tadge from the first post. ^
Some people here are suggesting fluids that appear to be intended mostly for track use, and likely have the water absorption problem he wants us to avoid. I normally flush fluid now about once per year.
So what's a good compromise fluid, with reasonably high dry and wet boiling points but low water absorption? And how do we learn what the water absorption is for a particular fluid?
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bellwilliam (04-19-2018)
04-19-2018, 12:30 PM
#12
Former Vendor
That's a very true statement. The high bp fluids for track use can be in fact less effective as your daily drive street fluid in short order. They are simply not as stable a fluid with regard to moisture. Real deal race fluids to be effective at the ratings they have should be installed and fully flushed each weekend if not daily in some cases. Trying to "top off" something that's now 4mo old is just foolishly diluting the effective nature of the fluid.
Most guys who do the occasional HPDE don't really need all this anyhow and can get by on some NEW factory or DOT3 or 4 fluid. Emphasis on new....if it's your first event and you don't see more events in the future 620F fluid is not only a waste of money but before your next event would likely be more contaminated than the generic brand from Pepboys.
I always tell any new buyer/driver/user: start with a full fresh flush of a major brand and see how you do. You might be surprised. If you're not boiling what you use now; you don't need a higher bp fluid. There's this notion that one is going to be "better" than the other. For many they equate this to braking performance. And while fade and boiling is related to that it's not going to stop you 10ft shorter because it has a higher rating.
There are so many brands on the market today that picking one vs the other is a crap shoot. And while others suggest Brand X is the best...unless you know their specific use and service on that fluid it's all just another opinion. *Oh..he forgot to mention that he flushes the system with three bottles a weekend @ $32ea? lol It's a learning process of sorts.
As always here's a great link to all the fluids I know of from a friend of mine with some good info. BRAKE FLUID FOR DUMMIES
And that plastic bottle thing is not such a bid deal today as they are hermetically sealed not just in plastic. There's a find membrane to prevent (slow?) moisture penetration.
Most guys who do the occasional HPDE don't really need all this anyhow and can get by on some NEW factory or DOT3 or 4 fluid. Emphasis on new....if it's your first event and you don't see more events in the future 620F fluid is not only a waste of money but before your next event would likely be more contaminated than the generic brand from Pepboys.
I always tell any new buyer/driver/user: start with a full fresh flush of a major brand and see how you do. You might be surprised. If you're not boiling what you use now; you don't need a higher bp fluid. There's this notion that one is going to be "better" than the other. For many they equate this to braking performance. And while fade and boiling is related to that it's not going to stop you 10ft shorter because it has a higher rating.
There are so many brands on the market today that picking one vs the other is a crap shoot. And while others suggest Brand X is the best...unless you know their specific use and service on that fluid it's all just another opinion. *Oh..he forgot to mention that he flushes the system with three bottles a weekend @ $32ea? lol It's a learning process of sorts.
As always here's a great link to all the fluids I know of from a friend of mine with some good info. BRAKE FLUID FOR DUMMIES
And that plastic bottle thing is not such a bid deal today as they are hermetically sealed not just in plastic. There's a find membrane to prevent (slow?) moisture penetration.
04-19-2018, 12:46 PM
#13
Race Director
Race fluids, by their nature, generally absorb water more quickly than street brake fluids which can dramatically reduce their boiling point, potentially below that of our factory fluid. This reduction can lead to risk of boiling fluid at lower brake energy. So, again with safety in mind, we recommend going back to street fluid for street driving to avoid the water uptake more likely in race fluids.
Re-quoting Tadge from the first post. ^
Some people here are suggesting fluids that appear to be intended mostly for track use, and likely have the water absorption problem he wants us to avoid. I normally flush fluid now about once per year.
So what's a good compromise fluid, with reasonably high dry and wet boiling points but low water absorption? And how do we learn what the water absorption is for a particular fluid?
Re-quoting Tadge from the first post. ^
Some people here are suggesting fluids that appear to be intended mostly for track use, and likely have the water absorption problem he wants us to avoid. I normally flush fluid now about once per year.
So what's a good compromise fluid, with reasonably high dry and wet boiling points but low water absorption? And how do we learn what the water absorption is for a particular fluid?
see #10
04-19-2018, 12:54 PM
#14
Valvoline 488F dry (especially with 311F wet, which means you need to flush fluid after every track) isn't good enough for any HPDE, in my opinion. I can fade ATE with 536F dry in a 130whp Spec Miata (depending on tracks of course) that tops 122mph. DE1 / DE2 don't mean the driver is any gentler on brakes than someone in DE4. Most new drivers abuse their brakes, carrying far less entry speed.
brake fluid are so cheap and you need so little of it, zero reason to not to use one with higher dry boiling point.
brake fluid are so cheap and you need so little of it, zero reason to not to use one with higher dry boiling point.
04-19-2018, 04:40 PM
#15
Drifting
I'm not a fan of plastic bottles. I work with isocyanates. They are very sensitive to moisture and do show a change in equivalent weight / NCO content after storage in plastic.
I have also taken old (unused) brake fluid and pulled a strong vacuum (1 Torr) to make sure any absorbed water is gone. I also like to nitrogen blanket any open cans that I don't anticipate using in a long time.
I have also taken old (unused) brake fluid and pulled a strong vacuum (1 Torr) to make sure any absorbed water is gone. I also like to nitrogen blanket any open cans that I don't anticipate using in a long time.
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Todd TCE (04-19-2018)
04-22-2018, 07:47 AM
#16
Racer
Recently, a friend and fellow track rat switched to CastroL SRF, which is more expensive but truly is the Jedi Knight of brake fluids. He swears to God when the fluid heats up, the Castrol's braking fell doesn not change. It's hard for me to tell as I have different brakes than he does.
Castrol SRF is hydrophobic, meaning it repels moisture, while most brake fluids, including the aforementioned Motul, are hygroscopic (notice NOT hydroscopic) which means they absorb the moisture.
As for the price, another thing is the bottle size. The Motul RBF600 comes in a 1/2 liter bottle while the Castrol SRF is a full liter, so the price isn't as dramatic as most make it out to be.
No I haven't switched from Motul as I just flushed/bled the brakes earlier this month, but on the next flush/bleed, will swap to Castrol. My $0.02.
Feff
04-22-2018, 11:17 AM
#17
Melting Slicks
If you’re doing any type of high performance driving, your brakes are the most important component that should be upgraded. Hence use the best brake fluid out there which is Castrol’s SRF. Flush the system once, and you’ll be fine all year without the need to bleed the brakes even once if you’re not doing HPDEs on high speed tracks that are demanding on brakes. SRF can stay in the lines for 18 months as recommended by Castrol, so if you flush every year you’ll be in great shape.
Bish
Bish
04-23-2018, 06:48 PM
#18
Former Vendor
From their own statements: it's not compatible with conventional fluid, it's a silicone mix and should be fully flushed extensively to remove any former fluid. Also while not absorbing moisture any water in the system (fit your own reason here) should be flushed regularly as it can boil with water in it. (and be the cause of rust)
There's a vast mix of pro and con feedback on various forums and suppliers with regard to this fluid, it's specs, properties and potential problems.
I'm no chemist here: but use with caution at your own risk.
Last edited by Todd TCE; 04-23-2018 at 06:49 PM.
04-23-2018, 08:53 PM
#19
* Except that it is considered a Silicone based fluid by many. Thus its water repelling nature. And that doesn't mean that it can't get water in there...just doesn't absorb moisture. They refer to it as DOT3/4 due to it's BP properties, but others outright call it 5.0
From their own statements: it's not compatible with conventional fluid, it's a silicone mix and should be fully flushed extensively to remove any former fluid. Also while not absorbing moisture any water in the system (fit your own reason here) should be flushed regularly as it can boil with water in it. (and be the cause of rust)
There's a vast mix of pro and con feedback on various forums and suppliers with regard to this fluid, it's specs, properties and potential problems.
I'm no chemist here: but use with caution at your own risk.
From their own statements: it's not compatible with conventional fluid, it's a silicone mix and should be fully flushed extensively to remove any former fluid. Also while not absorbing moisture any water in the system (fit your own reason here) should be flushed regularly as it can boil with water in it. (and be the cause of rust)
There's a vast mix of pro and con feedback on various forums and suppliers with regard to this fluid, it's specs, properties and potential problems.
I'm no chemist here: but use with caution at your own risk.
