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Looks like my low mileage Michelin Pilot Sport 4S are done. 2x lapping sessions per week since late may + 3 lapping days and around 3k miles of street use. (This is a rear tire). These tires are rotated twice a month (Left and right, but I am staggered, so no front-back)
I know this is what I should expect from tracking the car this much, but those are 2000CAD a set (once you add the sale tax and installation), and I cannot afford another set this summer. The shittyest part is that the rest of the tire has 8/32 of thread left.
I suspect I didn't put enough pressure in them (30 psi cold rear and 32 psi cold in front).
I am fairly sure adding more camber would help reduce that wear and give me more grip. If the wear is indeed reduced, a camber kit will pay for itself very quickly with the price of these tires.
Zenak suggest to go for the following on street tires:
Originally Posted by Zenak
For the newbie dual purpose street / track HPDE car with NON slicks a good place to start (rubber bushings and street tires): ======> Camber, Caster, Toe Front:==> -1.6, 8.0, 0 Height at Mid Fender: 27 3/8 Rear: ==> -1.0, N/A, -1/8" Height at Mid Fender: 27 7/8
From various source I read, stock direction varies from car to car and will not always allow to get such settings on factory parts.
I plan to have the alignment done by a shop.
Will a camber kit reduce damage?
Should I increase tire pressure?
Anyone having a current camber kit or factory should allow me to get this alignment setting?
You should easily get to those specs with the stock camber bolts. One of the limiting situations is usually the left rear camber. When aligning my car, 2000, I max out the left rear and then set the RR to that camber. Since I heavily autocross my car I have about -1.25 camber and 3/16 toe in in the rear and -2.2 Camber in the front and 0 toe. Because of the camber I can only get about 6.8 degrees of caster. Even when i run HPDE's my tire wear is pretty even across the treads. As far as tire pressures, you more than likely are running close to 36 lbs or more hot in the front and 33+ in the rear. Unless you have a tire temperature probe it is hard to measure optimal tire pressure.
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Optimal tire pressure varies from tire to tire, I've had good luck starting at about 27 PSI cold and i've been running BFGs.
My camber specs are close to the suggested ones you mention, i have about -1.5 degrees of camber in the rear. and i've been very happy with the tire wear i've seen on my track tires.
Regarding the delamination that you're seeing on the tires in my experience that is mostly from over-heating the tire. It may be a combination of your alignment and too high of a hot pressure.
My advice would be to get a tweener alignment and when you go to the track try playing with different cold pressures. Chalk or put shoe wax on the sidewall of the tire to see how far down the sidewall you are rolling the tire over, that's a simple way to try and find a good cold pressure for your tire by looking at the tire wear.
But what do i know? i'm just a guy on the internet.
You also need to verify that your alignment did not slip during your on track adventures. After getting an alignment done, I suggest marking all cams with a yellow paint pen so you can easily see if anything has shipped between each run. Most alignment shops do not tighten the cam bolts to "track" specs. It appears to me that the tire wasn't just low on pressure but that it rolled all the way over to the top of the "MICHELIN' lettering....about a 1/2" further than it ever should. If you had told me that this was a street only Vette, I would immediately think that the tire was run on super low air pressures due to what looks like wear right up to the top of the Michelin lettering. Hard to tell for sure if it was a pressure issue or camber issue or a combination of both. For sure a camber kit will pretty much guarantee that the alignment settings will be locked into place so you'll only have to be concerned with air pressures from that point on.
If your cold pressures were correct (assuming your pressure gauge was correct to start with), those tires would have been up to the mid 30's very quickly.....More than enough pressure to avoid what happened unless the alignment went way off.
I once ruined a right rear tire in one 20 minute session when I didn't notice that my right rear alignment had slipped just barely into positive camber.....it doesn't take a lot.
Those tires are not going to like getting really beat on at the track over and over IMO....once that street based compound gets over used it can start to chunk when over heated.
What about rubber bushings allowing the tire to roll over as the bushing yields? I don't think camber is a good bandaid for that. Delrin is the solution if you are putting in the G load. Delrin isn't as smooth as rubber for street but I run street on delrin with no issue in the past.
What about rubber bushings allowing the tire to roll over as the bushing yields? I don't think camber is a good bandaid for that. Delrin is the solution if you are putting in the G load. Delrin isn't as smooth as rubber for street but I run street on delrin with no issue in the past.
Well, I had no clue what Delrin was until you made me look it up. I was intending to buy a complete poly bushing kit for this winter and do the car in spring before the season. I have 0 power tools and no clue how to do this job, so right now is not the best time to install these, but yes, it is in my scope of things for next spring. Specially if they are part of the reason why I have such damage. Smoothness and ride comfort is amongst the least important factors for me, so bushing is the next in the list.
Can you tell me more about your setup? What did you purchase? Any suggested installation videos? Pitfalls? Quick search says that these bushings do not "last long" and become oblong, is it true?
Following the rest of the suggested info, I will get the car on an alignement shop and get it aligned to the specs I mentionned earlier.
I have milled my own delrin bushings for my vette racecar 1 ferrari racecar and 2 ferrari streetcars. That said, in your situation I would just remove my A-arms and send them to VanSteel and have them install the delrin bushings and then you just replace the aarms back on your car assuming you have that skillset. Then I would send out for corner balancing with your weight in the car and 1/2 of your track fuel load and do your track alignment at the same time.
I would not do poly at all. Delrin seems to last quite long like you will probably sell the car before you ever have to replace them. We all run too long on our rubber bushings but accept slow degradation in performance just like a frog in a pot of water coming to a very very slow boil with no protest.
Your camber is WAY too low. See how the sidewall is even worn down to the Michelin logo? You have been cornering just with the very outside of the tread and also onto the sidewall. You should have been monitoring wear on your tires and addressed the issue well before it got to this point. 1.0 camber is even too low I would say. You are driving on track quite often so you need track settings, I would max out the rear camber. It's funny when people try to save their tires by keeping a street alignment but then murder the outer edges with a few track sessions. If you keep toe to minimum levels then you can run a lot of camber which will greatly extend your tire life (and give more grip).
Optimal tire pressure varies from tire to tire, I've had good luck starting at about 27 PSI cold and i've been running BFGs.
My camber specs are close to the suggested ones you mention, i have about -1.5 degrees of camber in the rear. and i've been very happy with the tire wear i've seen on my track tires.
Regarding the delamination that you're seeing on the tires in my experience that is mostly from over-heating the tire. It may be a combination of your alignment and too high of a hot pressure.
My advice would be to get a tweener alignment and when you go to the track try playing with different cold pressures. Chalk or put shoe wax on the sidewall of the tire to see how far down the sidewall you are rolling the tire over, that's a simple way to try and find a good cold pressure for your tire by looking at the tire wear.
But what do i know? i'm just a guy on the internet.
I am just a guy who started going on the track in April this year. You very likely know more than I do.
Originally Posted by TrackAire
You also need to verify that your alignment did not slip during your on track adventures. After getting an alignment done, I suggest marking all cams with a yellow paint pen so you can easily see if anything has shipped between each run. Most alignment shops do not tighten the cam bolts to "track" specs. It appears to me that the tire wasn't just low on pressure but that it rolled all the way over to the top of the "MICHELIN' lettering....about a 1/2" further than it ever should. If you had told me that this was a street only Vette, I would immediately think that the tire was run on super low air pressures due to what looks like wear right up to the top of the Michelin lettering. Hard to tell for sure if it was a pressure issue or camber issue or a combination of both. For sure a camber kit will pretty much guarantee that the alignment settings will be locked into place so you'll only have to be concerned with air pressures from that point on.
If your cold pressures were correct (assuming your pressure gauge was correct to start with), those tires would have been up to the mid 30's very quickly.....More than enough pressure to avoid what happened unless the alignment went way off.
I once ruined a right rear tire in one 20 minute session when I didn't notice that my right rear alignment had slipped just barely into positive camber.....it doesn't take a lot.
Those tires are not going to like getting really beat on at the track over and over IMO....once that street based compound gets over used it can start to chunk when over heated.
Michelin Pilot Sport 4S appears to be the best street tire I can get. I have overheated them in the past and no chunk came off them previously. Current problem I have is that I am stuck with the previous owner fantastic idea of going 19"-20" staggered wheels. GM had this genius idea of going 5x120.65 bolt pattern with a weirdo spacing, meaning that there are not many wheels available in the 18x10.5 size, and those who are available comes at a premium price. I'll start looking for a set of wheels this winter, when I have money. I know that spacers are a thing, but I just don't trust spacers for racing application.
Originally Posted by fatbillybob
Norad,
I have milled my own delrin bushings for my vette racecar 1 ferrari racecar and 2 ferrari streetcars. That said, in your situation I would just remove my A-arms and send them to VanSteel and have them install the delrin bushings and then you just replace the aarms back on your car assuming you have that skillset. Then I would send out for corner balancing with your weight in the car and 1/2 of your track fuel load and do your track alignment at the same time.
I would not do poly at all. Delrin seems to last quite long like you will probably sell the car before you ever have to replace them. We all run too long on our rubber bushings but accept slow degradation in performance just like a frog in a pot of water coming to a very very slow boil with no protest.
Yeah... Vansteel is in the states, and I am in canada. I do not have a mill, I would rather attempt to find a complete bushing kit for my car. Also, I believe you and I are not dealing with the same budget reality haha, but your answer on durability is good enough.
Originally Posted by Matt_27
Your camber is WAY too low. See how the sidewall is even worn down to the Michelin logo? You have been cornering just with the very outside of the tread and also onto the sidewall. You should have been monitoring wear on your tires and addressed the issue well before it got to this point. 1.0 camber is even too low I would say. You are driving on track quite often so you need track settings, I would max out the rear camber. It's funny when people try to save their tires by keeping a street alignment but then murder the outer edges with a few track sessions. If you keep toe to minimum levels then you can run a lot of camber which will greatly extend your tire life (and give more grip).
I have been trying to monitor tire wear, I just didn't know what to look for (remember, I started in April, I am very new to this). Track setting is absolutely what I will do at this point because there is barely any wear in the inside thread. More camber is not going to hurt anything at this rate.
I would suggest finding someone you can work with when at the track. Purchase a tire temp gauge. Check pressure and temps as soon as car leaves track. Tire temps should be relatively even across tire and pressure gain close. A portable alignment kit would allow you to adjust camber and toe in if necessary. When air pressure adjustments don't help depending on time between sessions.
GM had this genius idea of going 5x120.65 bolt pattern with a weirdo spacing, meaning that there are not many wheels available in the 18x10.5 size, and those who are available comes at a premium price. I'll start looking for a set of wheels this winter, when I have money. I know that spacers are a thing, but I just don't trust spacers for racing application.
Wheels for a c5 are neither rare nor premium. A good used set of 4 c5 rears or something along the lines of a TSW in either Nurburgring or Interlagos can be had pretty inexpensively and in the correct offset. There are literally dozens of wheels that fit a c5 Corvette and a number of GM cars that will also fit. The whole "genius idea" thing makes no sense in any way.
I didn't see where you said whether this car is is a base or a z06 and what suspension you have, so there's no knowing what you've got for springs, shocks, sway bars. I saw that someone suggested a bigger sway bar, but based upon what I don't know. We don't know what you have now thus I have a hard time seeing what to recommend with no knowledge of what's there now. The thread title says "camber kit." Is there an after market camber kit on the car or is it factory? I think that the car hasn't been on an alignment rack yet. We don't know what the current alignment looks like. Probably doesn't have enough camber, might have too much toe in. Who knows?
The very first thing that I would do is do nothing until you know what you're dealing with. Find out what suspension your sitting on, find out what alignment you have. Because if you don't know these things before you make changes you might as well throw darts at a dart board.
Wheels for a c5 are neither rare nor premium. A good used set of 4 c5 rears or something along the lines of a TSW in either Nurburgring or Interlagos can be had pretty inexpensively and in the correct offset. There are literally dozens of wheels that fit a c5 Corvette and a number of GM cars that will also fit. The whole "genius idea" thing makes no sense in any way.
I didn't see where you said whether this car is is a base or a z06 and what suspension you have, so there's no knowing what you've got for springs, shocks, sway bars. I saw that someone suggested a bigger sway bar, but based upon what I don't know. We don't know what you have now thus I have a hard time seeing what to recommend with no knowledge of what's there now. The thread title says "camber kit." Is there an after market camber kit on the car or is it factory? I think that the car hasn't been on an alignment rack yet. We don't know what the current alignment looks like. Probably doesn't have enough camber, might have too much toe in. Who knows?
The very first thing that I would do is do nothing until you know what you're dealing with. Find out what suspension your sitting on, find out what alignment you have. Because if you don't know these things before you make changes you might as well throw darts at a dart board.
I have been looking for a set of 4 c5 wheels for the last 2 months in quebec, with none to be found. Nurburgrings are about 2600$ with tax, which is not cheap. I have also tried to find them but I have not seen anyone import TSW wheels here.
My car is a 2002 z06 with no modification other than pads and brake lines. I have not done any alignment yet (I wanted to run the car stock a year before doing anything). I will get an alignment job at the same time I get the tires swapped.
I have been looking for a set of 4 c5 wheels for the last 2 months in quebec, with none to be found. Nurburgrings are about 2600$ with tax, which is not cheap. I have also tried to find them but I have not seen anyone import TSW wheels here.
My car is a 2002 z06 with no modification other than pads and brake lines. I have not done any alignment yet (I wanted to run the car stock a year before doing anything). I will get an alignment job at the same time I get the tires swapped.
BTW - I second the opinions that if you are running all OEM components on the car and OEM alignment specs, if you track the car hard at all you will tear up the shoulders of your tires. If the car is also a daily driver, you then have a dilemma because a race setting on the street will eat up the inside shoulders of your tires.
I have been looking for a set of 4 c5 wheels for the last 2 months in quebec, with none to be found. Nurburgrings are about 2600$ with tax, which is not cheap. I have also tried to find them but I have not seen anyone import TSW wheels here.
My car is a 2002 z06 with no modification other than pads and brake lines. I have not done any alignment yet (I wanted to run the car stock a year before doing anything). I will get an alignment job at the same time I get the tires swapped.
I have no idea what the exchange rate is but it's not incredibly significant, I don't think.
Not sure if Sam will ship to Canada, but it's worth a call if you can save $1,000.
I completely don't understand running the car a whole year before even checking the alignment. Makes no sense sacrificing $2k in tires to save $99 bucks for an alignment. You bought the car used, I assume. You don't know what state that the alignment was in when you bought the car or where it is now. It could be way way out and fixing it could have saved those tires.
I'm not trying to be rough on you. I'm trying to show you that you're making some decisions that to save a dollar are costing you many.
Get it on an alignment rack. Find out where it is. Find out if the bushings are worn (good idea fatbillybob), find out what shape the sway bar bushings are in, and the shocks. Figure out exactly where you are right now, then put together a cohesive plan based upon your current status and available budget before randomly throwing parts at it hoping that you can fix a problem.
Not sure if Sam will ship to Canada, but it's worth a call if you can save $1,000.
So, that woult be 1729.44$ here when factoring import duty to Quebec. Thank you, that is quite a lot cheaper than buying them here. I will save that link.
Originally Posted by Sox-Fan
I completely don't understand running the car a whole year before even checking the alignment. Makes no sense sacrificing $2k in tires to save $99 bucks for an alignment. You bought the car used, I assume. You don't know what state that the alignment was in when you bought the car or where it is now. It could be way way out and fixing it could have saved those tires.
Because when I purchased the car, I was totally new to HPDE. I posted a link here, people said "Put pads on, replace valve springs, then go", which I did. I didn't know better. Lots of people said "don't work on the car, work on the driver", which I did. I wasn't expecting things like that to happen.
Originally Posted by Sox-Fan
I'm not trying to be rough on you. I'm trying to show you that you're making some decisions that to save a dollar are costing you many.
Please, keep doing that. I don't mind being told things in a rough way. I mind wasting the already limited amount of money because of stupid things like that which could have easily been prevented.
Originally Posted by Sox-Fan
Get it on an alignment rack. Find out where it is. Find out if the bushings are worn (good idea fatbillybob), find out what shape the sway bar bushings are in, and the shocks. Figure out exactly where you are right now, then put together a cohesive plan based upon your current status and available budget before randomly throwing parts at it hoping that you can fix a problem.
Its the first time I track a car, but its not the first car I build. Cohesive plan is the best way to end up with a balanced result for less money. I am already planning things ahead, I have a rough idea, but not totally set yet. My current plan for this winter is based on problem I had this year; massive heat issues, high tire wear and high price of rubber. I am trying to do the following for next winter.
Look for cheaper pads than PFC11 (DTC70 or Raybestos)
All these purchases will be reusable regardless of future upgrades. My plan is to focus on reliability and lower the cost of running as much as possible first (cheaper to buy a radiator right away, than buy a new engine to replace blown one and then buy a radiator). That means better oil pump, possibly accusump, catch can if it is relevant etc. Then, I will upgrade the brakes, then chassis (4 point half cage, I will try to select one that I can expand on later), then suspension/direction, aero, and to finish, more power.
In the meantime, if I see a part wearing out too quickly, I will replace it with the right stuff right away (for example, if I am to replace a hub, I am not going to swap the hub for another stock one, I'll go for the SKF one instead)
My budget for this winter is about 8kCAD. In there, I have to fit 2200$ of tires (possibly less if I find 18" wheels), and 1000$ of brake pads.
Another cost saving approach I am doing is to learn to do as much stuff as I can myself. Anything that can be done on floor jacks on a yard is done there. I do not have a lot of experience in mechanic (I have worked on my '81 Trans am in the past, and do most of my maintenance on my '11 Eclipse), but in between of youtube (thank you Froggy), the GM service book that I have, my "student" version of AllData and Mitchell, plus help from you guys here, I can get most of the stuff done myself.
I finally got my new tires last Friday. Michelin didn't have any 295/25ZR20 left, so I went with a set of 295/30ZR20. I have done about 200 miles in the weekend before going to the track.
I pressurized them all the way up to 35 PSI (after about 8 hours of rest, so total cold temp) and went to do 3 sessions yesterday. Here is where the wear line is.
I didn't get the chance to do an alignment last week because the employee was sick that day. I am going tonight.
Yesterday's temp was around 60F. I put 35 PSI on all corners. The car was very tail happy (much more than I am used to). Not sure if it is because the track was cold, or because of the pressure, or both, but the front had no grip problems even at this pressure. I also noticed that there was no tire overheat 2/3 in the session like I am used to in the front, so I suspect that these tires do not like getting too hot.
Regardless, is this better or will I end up with the same damage than before with this increased pressure?
Something you may also want to consider is having the tires flipped. I've taken multiple sets and had them flipped on the wheel after a few track days so the inside is now on the outside to try and get more life out of the shoulders.
Your shoulder wear line looks more reasonable than before, and its probably something you'll end up playing with to find a balance of wear and grip between the tire, camber, and tire pressure.
08-15-2018, 08:03 AM
C5: Tire damage and current camber kit
