More A8 transmission problems
#1
Intermediate
Thread Starter
More A8 transmission problems
I brought my 2015 z51 to the dealership in May for the jumping problem when putting it into drive as well as the shudder issue at low speed. They had the car for a day and said they needed a new torque converter. They called me a few days later after putting the new converter on. They had me drive around the parking lot to see if it felt different, I made it about 50 yards before I drove it right back into the service center. So they then put a whole new tranny in, 2 weeks later I get the car back. Great! Driving home everything was smooth like it should be. Fast forward to about three weeks ago and the problems have started again. Jumping forward after putting it into drive, the shuddering. At this point I am getting mad, I just had a new transmission put in, and the problem is back. Wednesday I dropped it off, now for the third time for this problem. I just got a call from my dealership this morning telling me that these characteristics are “normal”. So this month it is “normal, but in May it was something that required a new transmission. I love my car, but at this point i'm starting to think its something more. Being that it is the third time for this problem I have started looking into the Lemon law.
Popular Reply
09-20-2018, 07:44 AM
My 2016 Z06 A8 is fine but it has either been in manual mode or had a Range module installed since the moment I took delivery at the museum. The root cause of the major A8 issue is GM's ridiculous implementation of V4 mode where the torque converter lockup clutch is continuously modulated during V4 mode to attenuate the amount of engine vibration transferred through the rest of the powertrain. Lockup clutches (realistically no friction clutch) is going to stand up long term to this type of abuse where it is being engaged and disengaged multiple times per second. "Magic" fluid with friction modifiers can help reduce and to some extent mask the effects of wear from this operation but anyone who wants to keep their car long-term needs to seriously consider if they want to subject the transmission to this increased wear. GM MAY have addressed the increased oil consumption issues with their prior implementation of AFM but I don't plan to empirically test that premise either.
The only quirk I have with my A8 is in order to avoid an initial harsh 1 to 2 shift, while the car is still stationary after the first start of the day I shift to second and then back to first. The clutch pack associated with this range has a large fluid reservoir that is a little slow to initially fill after sitting overnight and this provides a good workaround to the initial harsh shift. GM may have updated the software to do a partial pre-fill of this clutch pack actuator so this step may not be needed with current production. The pre-fill strategy has been used on many other clutch to clutch architecture transmissions over the years and I have no idea why GM didn't do it in this case since it is under software control.
There is one relationship between the harsh initial shift and shudder. These clutch to clutch automatics depend upon very precise timing of the engaging and releasing clutch packs during shifts and this is accomplished via the controller working with precise sensors that measure input, output, and intermediate shaft speed. When unexpected slippage occurs (indicated via the RPM measurement of the various shafts) the transmission controller immediately responds by increasing apply pressure on the offending clutch pack(s). The initial 1 to 2 harshness occurs because of the slow fill resulting in an initial slip causing a command for an abrupt increase in apply pressure with resulting harsh engagement. Shudder occurs when there is unexpected slippage in the converter because the controller has ordered engagement of the lockup clutch. With shudder you have commanded engagement of the lockup clutch but because of wear there is slippage, when this happens apply pressure is abruptly increased resulting in harsh engagement. Under AFM in V4 mode this converter clutch slippage followed by abrupt lockup is happening continuously resulting in the shudder behavior. If the converter clutch were left completely unlocked during V4 mode operation then there would be no shudder but the already meager mileage gains from operating in 4 cylinder mode would be lost.
You will see the results of this increased wear before you begin to feel it as RPM variation at steady cruising speed will increase until it reaches the point where the controller is actively trying to combat this undesired slippage. By the time this occurs you already have experienced significant wear to the lockup clutch in the converter.
Shudder is very uncommon in the Z06 because it goes into V4 mode far less due to the different operating characteristics of its lower compression, forced induction motor. I suspect GM also made V4 mode engagement less aggressive with the Z06 because it doesn't have the vibration absorbing steel torque tube assembly or the AFM sound control valves which would have a very short life given the additional exhaust heat from the supercharged engine. In any case my Z06 will not be spending any time in V4 mode.
One other caution is that shudder can also come from engine problems and because the shudder problem is so common with an 8L90 (aka A8) transmission that engine operational/power delivery problems are going to be misdiagnosed because techs have become so used to the frequency of the issue with the 8L90 (and its 8L45 lower torque sibling).
The only quirk I have with my A8 is in order to avoid an initial harsh 1 to 2 shift, while the car is still stationary after the first start of the day I shift to second and then back to first. The clutch pack associated with this range has a large fluid reservoir that is a little slow to initially fill after sitting overnight and this provides a good workaround to the initial harsh shift. GM may have updated the software to do a partial pre-fill of this clutch pack actuator so this step may not be needed with current production. The pre-fill strategy has been used on many other clutch to clutch architecture transmissions over the years and I have no idea why GM didn't do it in this case since it is under software control.
There is one relationship between the harsh initial shift and shudder. These clutch to clutch automatics depend upon very precise timing of the engaging and releasing clutch packs during shifts and this is accomplished via the controller working with precise sensors that measure input, output, and intermediate shaft speed. When unexpected slippage occurs (indicated via the RPM measurement of the various shafts) the transmission controller immediately responds by increasing apply pressure on the offending clutch pack(s). The initial 1 to 2 harshness occurs because of the slow fill resulting in an initial slip causing a command for an abrupt increase in apply pressure with resulting harsh engagement. Shudder occurs when there is unexpected slippage in the converter because the controller has ordered engagement of the lockup clutch. With shudder you have commanded engagement of the lockup clutch but because of wear there is slippage, when this happens apply pressure is abruptly increased resulting in harsh engagement. Under AFM in V4 mode this converter clutch slippage followed by abrupt lockup is happening continuously resulting in the shudder behavior. If the converter clutch were left completely unlocked during V4 mode operation then there would be no shudder but the already meager mileage gains from operating in 4 cylinder mode would be lost.
You will see the results of this increased wear before you begin to feel it as RPM variation at steady cruising speed will increase until it reaches the point where the controller is actively trying to combat this undesired slippage. By the time this occurs you already have experienced significant wear to the lockup clutch in the converter.
Shudder is very uncommon in the Z06 because it goes into V4 mode far less due to the different operating characteristics of its lower compression, forced induction motor. I suspect GM also made V4 mode engagement less aggressive with the Z06 because it doesn't have the vibration absorbing steel torque tube assembly or the AFM sound control valves which would have a very short life given the additional exhaust heat from the supercharged engine. In any case my Z06 will not be spending any time in V4 mode.
One other caution is that shudder can also come from engine problems and because the shudder problem is so common with an 8L90 (aka A8) transmission that engine operational/power delivery problems are going to be misdiagnosed because techs have become so used to the frequency of the issue with the 8L90 (and its 8L45 lower torque sibling).
#2
I know your struggle and am going through the same thing.
Had a TSB done in June to help the rough engagement from P to D. Didn't work. Recently had the transmission swapped out for a remanned unit. Still having issues. I also am having issues with a rough downshift from 8 to 7.
Had a TSB done in June to help the rough engagement from P to D. Didn't work. Recently had the transmission swapped out for a remanned unit. Still having issues. I also am having issues with a rough downshift from 8 to 7.
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gregm06 (03-23-2020)
#3
Intermediate
Thread Starter
If the problem was “normal” I don’t understand why they tried to fix it twice the first time. I don’t see how putting a new transmission in would be a common thing for something that is “normal”
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Art17 (08-11-2022)
#4
And the real problem is GM will flat out refuse to replace the transmission and people are still having issues with 2019s. So even the newer parts are still not performing as well as they should. I would suggest you take the car in and ave as many parts as possible updated in case you never had the TSBs done. They help some but not 100%.
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c5arlen (09-04-2023)
#5
Intermediate
Thread Starter
That seems to be a problem. I have had the new transmission for about 2 months with no problems at all then a month ago same problems started again. And today my dealership says it’s acting “normal”
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c5arlen (09-04-2023)
#6
you shouldn't have to, but buy the Range and save yourself some sanity.
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vetten76 (06-10-2020)
#7
Melting Slicks
That really blows for you guys! I had thought about selling/trading the '14 for a '19 but gaining two extra speeds on the transmission aren't worth the potential trouble. I'll hold off for a ME at this point; can't wait to experience the new model issues that will have! I will say, however, I've owned early VIN C4, C5, C6, and C7 and the C7 has been trouble free so I shouldn't be afraid of a C8. It seems the most issues with the C7's have been after the first model year. (tranny, orange peel paint, panel fitment, etc)
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bjones7131 (12-22-2019)
#8
Pro
A8 problems/TC problems
I had a 2015 Z51 with the A8. I had the usual TC problems. They first flushed it, and finally replaced the TC. I had no more problems, and traded the car in on a 2017 ZO6, with the A8. The ZO6 had about 15k miles, and I have had NO problems.
GM stood behind the problems on the Z51. Aside from the TC the 4 disk brakes were warped, and I had paint issues on the wheels.
So far the ZO6 is flawless, and I love it!
GM stood behind the problems on the Z51. Aside from the TC the 4 disk brakes were warped, and I had paint issues on the wheels.
So far the ZO6 is flawless, and I love it!
#9
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I feel sorry for those of you who are having problems with the A8 tranny. You’re justified in being disappointed/mad that this is happening, especially after already having some repairs done to the car.
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#10
Burning Brakes
I brought my 2015 z51 to the dealership in May for the jumping problem when putting it into drive as well as the shudder issue at low speed. They had the car for a day and said they needed a new torque converter. They called me a few days later after putting the new converter on. They had me drive around the parking lot to see if it felt different, I made it about 50 yards before I drove it right back into the service center. So they then put a whole new tranny in, 2 weeks later I get the car back. Great! Driving home everything was smooth like it should be. Fast forward to about three weeks ago and the problems have started again. Jumping forward after putting it into drive, the shuddering. At this point I am getting mad, I just had a new transmission put in, and the problem is back. Wednesday I dropped it off, now for the third time for this problem. I just got a call from my dealership this morning telling me that these characteristics are “normal”. So this month it is “normal, but in May it was something that required a new transmission. I love my car, but at this point i'm starting to think its something more. Being that it is the third time for this problem I have started looking into the Lemon law.
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#12
^^^ I'm contemplating getting back into a Corvette, but after reading all of these negative posts concerning the A8, I'm really turned off now.
I'll have to entertain the M7, although I feel it has one too many gears...
What to do?
I'll have to entertain the M7, although I feel it has one too many gears...
What to do?
#13
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#14
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Really? "One too any gears" would dissuade you? So don't use seventh. It only .09 difference from sixth anyway. It's the smoothest manual I have ever driven, a real delight. I use seventh all the time on fast freeways. It probably makes little difference mpg wise, but I like having it there. To NOT buy an M7 because it has one more gear just seems nonsensical to me. Better grab it while you can because it just might not be there very much longer.
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#15
Intermediate
Thread Starter
I would definitely go with the M7. I bought mine off the forum with under 500 miles for a great deal, this member sells a lot of cars and is a great guy. If the deal wasn't so good I would've definitely been looking for a M7.
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Frank Tringale (10-17-2019)
#16
Intermediate
Thread Starter
I am going to be calling another dealership to see if there is something that they will look in to. I'm starting to get that this common problem will unlikely be fixed, which is a shame. I honestly would like to just move on at this point, but trade value is so terrible that I can only hope to eventually solve the problem or even better yet at this point get gm to buy it back.
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c5arlen (09-04-2023)
#17
Instructor
The shudder problem on my '15 was corrected by the installation of a new torque converter, but the harsh shifting remains, especially from Park to Drive and from Reverse to Drive. Has anyone experienced a lasting fix for this problem? From the comments I have read, I am not optimistic that there is one.
#18
Safety Car
My son's Kia started jumping forward when you put it in gear one day. I took it to the dealer for him and found there was a TSB for the issue. They loaded new software for the transmission and never had another problem with it. They could never explain how it just started acting up after three years.
I can't see how a bad torque convertor could cause that problem. And since it wasn't the transmission, It has to be in the firmware.
I can't see how a bad torque convertor could cause that problem. And since it wasn't the transmission, It has to be in the firmware.
#19
Pro
My '15 Z51 shift thru gears smoothly. I haven't experience any shuddering & hope it stay that way. Only issue I have is the stupid jerking when shift from Park to D or M. After driving for a while & it warms up enough, the jerking stop. What a PITA.
#20
Safety Car
The shudder problem on my '15 was corrected by the installation of a new torque converter, but the harsh shifting remains, especially from Park to Drive and from Reverse to Drive. Has anyone experienced a lasting fix for this problem? From the comments I have read, I am not optimistic that there is one.
Last edited by Red C8 of Jax; 09-15-2018 at 07:52 AM.