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I am prepping my 1974 for paint. I had the doors off. I put them back on to check fit before I paint because I know the alignment was not that great to begin with but I don't recall it being this bad. Now I am a bit concerned. The gap between the front fender and door is too wide. It is narrower at the bottom and gets wider at the top. I had the car on blocks for several months. It was supported by the frame below the front door pillar and rear before the fender opening. I read some where that is a bad idea as the front can sag. Is this true? If so how do I fix that. Why would that even happen? Even if it did why wouldn't it return to normal when I put the car back on the wheels. In any case what now? Do I wait and see if it settles back in or should I go ahead and mold in some fiberglass to even out the gap. It also looks like I need to raise the front of the door just a little. The back is ok for height but it also has a big gap. That gap was there when I bought the car and I am going to address that as well.
Last edited by Bills vette 007; 09-17-2018 at 10:47 AM.
Your door still looks like it needs to go UP...because the flat bottom edge of the door is not FLUSH with the bottom edge of the fender.
There is a gusset plate that is riveted to the top of you birdcage AND the end of your top hood surround bonds to it and IF the car is supported like you had it supported. the weight of the engine and all forward parts in front of your jack stand put the firewall and this gusset under stress.
Some cars it will not effect it so much but other cars it can and IF the stress on those three rivets allows that gusset to pull away from the birdcage. A piece of the sealant GM used that is no rock hard now can fall in between the gusset and the birdcage and NOW it acts like a shim is a shim and prevents the gusset from going all the way back down.
Thanks Dub. I will take a look at it tomorrow. I'm not sure where this gusset plate is. I have the build manual. I'll look at it to see where it is. I do know the body mounts that are riveted to the firewall and bolted to the frame are rusted pretty bad. There is a very slight gap at the top of both of them. The door to fender gap was always a little wide to my taste. I looked at the gap tonight and it actually looks like it is smaller. I think I'm going to give it a couple days and see what happens. In the mean time I will look at the gussets you mention. I want to get the paint on but I also don't want to rush it. I'm not sure if I should lay on some fiberglass to close the gap if this might correct itself or need corrected. There isn't anything easy about this I guess.
Go to POST #23 and it shows the gusset I am referring to removed and the rust that can develop under it. Then go to POST#39 and it shows how Will reattached them back on the car.
i wont admit to how long it took to discover this problem the first time.
So I am guessing you have run into this area where these gussets were bad and causing a problem also. IF SO..glad to know I am not the only one who had come across this problem.
owner had kept it on his inground lift at the gas station since new. put up on the lift every night before he went home. what wasn't loose was cracked . had horrible gap at front of doors. took me forever to figure out what was wrong .
Thanks for posting this 'porchdog' due to I oftentimes get blasted for saying that this can happen. Like people think I am full of it.
Which is WHY when people follow GM recommended placement of jack stands on the frame...which are more than likely where this guy supported the frame when he lifted it..IS WHY I tell people that they should not do it because...in time...they can have a problem and regret it.
OK I think I see where the referenced gussets are. The top of the fender at the firewall right above where the heater fan would be? ( I have removed all the heater apparatus because I put in a vintage air system. I have looked at the area very carefully and cannot see any evidence of separation, the fiberglass is connected tight to the curve area of the firewall right above where the old fan was on the passenger side. I hope I am looking at the right place. However I do see a very minor crack in the channel the hood sits in but it is tiny. Everything seems tight, No separations of adhesive, but I assume the rivets you speak of are not visible. The door/fender gap on the drivers side is not as bad. Once I raised the door a little it closed up some on the passenger side. Should I go ahead and lay in some fiberglass to close the gap. What gap should I shoot for. I looked at the build manual and it looks like 0.4 inch but that seems really big to me. That's almost 7/16ths of an inch. I would think half that. 3/16ths at most? Geez, I hope this car is worth all this. I guess I am already over it's value. But I don't intend ever selling it so it don't really matter. It will be my build. Also I am pretty sure the front clip Fiberglass has been replaced. It has replacement fiberglass front and rear bumper covers and I think I recall the gap being bigger than it should be but It's been 6 years since I removed the doors.
Last edited by Bills vette 007; 09-20-2018 at 05:01 PM.
One thing about having a car in pieces is its so easy to take "exploded pics:" . Anyway thats my left hand black door opened , i have lifted the hood surround up to show the glass piece thats riveted to the steel bird cage . You can see 3 lumps (rivets) That V shape flange is glued to the hood surround.
same area from the top looking down , grey painted is bottom of windscreen steel surround. You can see some of the black sealer/ adhesive I put between the steel and that flange piece to help those 3 rivets hold. That join is what Dub was talking about , factory glueing wasn't as neat as this and over the years the rivets wear and the sealer fails and when you put your car on jack stands that join opens and let' crap fall in there so it wont shut back down.
Well it looks like you guys are right. It popped the rivets and I have a gap there. I couldn't see it because of the amount of adhesive there. I chipped away the solid adhesive and there it is, a gap between the hood surround and the metal plate. I cleaned out as much loose debris in the gap as I could but I fear there is more further down in there. I can also see the gap in the door jamb right above the hinge. I can see it is lifted about 3/16 inch. I have two pictures, you can see the gap above the hinge I am pointing to with a screw driver. The gap at the base of the windshield is harder to see in the picture but it's there and I can see the rivets. So, how do I fix this? Or can I without removing the hood surround? This is the passenger side. The drivers side seems ok.
Gap above hinge Gap at base of windshield
Last edited by Bills vette 007; 09-22-2018 at 01:50 PM.
The ONLY way I would fix this is to remove the top hood surround...thus meaning the full front clip as a whole.
I have seen people cut the section of the hood surround and gain access to the gusset and then bond the piece of the hood surround they cut off...but I do not do it that way. For me it seems pointless to do it that way due to unbonding the fender at the cowl is easier that having to worry about a new seam that was not there.
Ok, here is where I stand with this problem. I jacked the car up on the core support and it did not close the gap. So I let it back down and jacked the car up with the jack under the door pillar. That opened the gap up a little more. I was able to see debris in the gap. I spent about 1 1/2 hours with a hacksaw blade and stiff wire cleaning out all the dried adhesive in there. I was able to clean it out completely. The hacksaw blade worked great. When I let the car back down on the wheels the gap was still there but not as bad. I put the jack back under the core support and it closed the gap up a little so I left it like that. I checked it this morning and the gap is closed. The gusset is now against the cowl. The rivets may or may not be all the way back in. So, what now. I am not wanting to remove the hood surround unless absolutely necessary. Can I open the gap and put adhesive in there and then close the gap on it? Is it possible to install new rivets if I go from under the dash. Does it even need the rivets, they can't possibly be holding much. I am pretty sure that area is accessible if I remove the passenger side dash panel. What do you think? will that work. And what adhesive should I use. at the very least I think the area needs caulk of some type to keep water out.
Crap. beyond frustrated. I let the car down onto the wheels to install and align the door. The gap is back. As long as I have it jacked up with the core support the gap closes. If I let it down on the wheels the gap opens up. Now I think it's always been like this. I know I was not happy with the way the hood surround met the door. It was always wider on top than bottom. Not sure what to do. Taking the hood surround off looks like a really big job. I'm not sure I'm up to it.
It is pointless in trying to pump any adhesive in there to take place of the rivets. it will not bond due to you can not prep the surfaces to make sure the adhesive will bond.
It has not been always like that...or at least from the factory it was not like that. The reason the gap closes is because you are moving the clip and the front firewall area.that has lost some of its bond or the panels have been stressed.
So..either you pull the clip and repair the gussets....or not and live with it. But be aware of the area of where you cleaned it out with a hack saw blade that there is now nothing there to stop it from rusting and allowing water to enter in you your birdcage.
OK Dub. Thanks. I think the water would have been getting it there whether I cleaned it out or not since I was able to get the hacksaw blade in there to begin with. Everything I cleaned out was loose anyway. I don't have a clue how to remove the front clip and I'm not sure I want to. but I will have to do something about water getting in
If you just do not want to pull the front clip...that is up to you.
IF you do...then we can fell you how to do that.
If you pump some sealant in the area where you cleaned out with the hack saw blade. You will want to use something that stays flexible such as CR LAURENCE 7708. Using a catalyzed product like SEM BEIGE SEAM SEALER may work but it can only work of the area that it is being applied to is clean of dust and stuff that will inhibit it actually sticking to the surface.
Closing that gap with EVERCOAT's Vette Panel Adhesive can be done also....but that is all up to you.
In the future.... I would be VERY CAREFUL on where you place your jack stands or thus area can get MUCH WORSE if you place your jack stands in the front where GM states they need to be placed right at the door gap area on the frame. Which is what mare than likely caused this problem to begin in the first place.
I have looked at the front clip and cannot see an easy way to remove the clip. Is it all adhesive in various places? I do not want to have problems after I paint the car. If not repairing this will cause future problems I will consider removing the front clip. I never intended this to be anything more than a car I can safely drive. Show car restoration is not my intent. I do think I will remove the body and work on the frame at some point simply because I want the car to last. I want to leave it to one of great grandchildren. The frame rust seems to be in the rear cross member in front of the differential. I'm 74 years old and do not have unlimited funds so an all new interior and frame are not possible. I am doing all this work myself. I am happy with the interior showing 44 years of wear. There are no major tears or cracks in the interior and the dash looks good. I have pulled the interior trim on the windshield posts and the birdcage seems to be ok but I have not pulled the windshield. There is a small spot of rust at the top of the post. I'd like to replace the windshield at some point just because it is scratched and pitted from years of wear. I do have a little rust in the door pillars. There is a quarter sized hole in the passenger door pilllar but it still seems solid the drivers side seems ok. That's why I think this separation on the passenger side might have existed all along. I have considered uncovering the door pillars and treating it for the rust. I can still do that after I paint if I choose to and repaint the door pillar cover. I guess I just have to decide how far I want to go.
09-17-2018, 10:44 AM
Body and Door alignment question
