gguillot

I rebuilt my Muncie 4 speed shifter a while back with the standard rebuild kit available from all the vendors. While I was at it, I used the short shift holes as well. While the shifter works much better than it did before, I still have a problem shifting from 2nd into 3rd. When I go to shift, it is as if the shifter cannot find the "gate" opening - I have to hunt for the opening before it will engage. When I do find the gate, it shifts into 3rd with no problem, no grinding. I can go from 2nd to 4th quite easily. Overall, the shifter action is not smooth.
This shifting problem occurs when the engine is not running as well. Once I run through the gears with the shifter, it will then usually find the gate and engage. I used the neutral tab insert while reinstalling and definitely used the correct e-clips. As far as adjusting, I adjusted the rods so that it fit correctly with the insert lock key installed, and nothing more.
So, could this simply be a case of the shifter body being too worn out, or needing to tighten up on the shift rods? Just looking for some advice before I go and start replacing parts. My next step would be to replace the shifter body and possibly the rods. (And yes, I searched through the forums ad nauseam but could not find anything definitive.)

DUB

Your problem may NOT be the shifter BUT the internal parts of your transmission that may no longer be able to go back to 'center' and thus cause you to loose your 'neutral gate'. Meaning your internal shifter forks and sliders can be in question.

Also shifting the transmission when it is NOT running can damage your synchronizers and put a burr on them ...thus making it hard to get the gear to engage when it is running.

The reason I wrote this is because I have seen it and dealt with this problem where it does not matter if you put a new shifter in it and/or replace it with another design shifter will stop this from happening..

You have to carefully look at the levers on the side of the transmission and see how they are working and if they have excessive play in them when they go forward and back and IF they actually 'center' themselves or not. That area is where I find most of the problems....and to correct this.....requires new internal parts due to you can not alter the linkage to compensate for that added play in this area.

DUB

gguillot

Dub,

Is this excessive play something I can check for? Should the levers "click" back into the neutral position without any free play?

DUB

Obviously have the car CORRECTLY supported with safety stands or on a lift.

I get the lever to go into a gear and when moving it back by hand I watch and feel when it clicks and it is 'supposed to be' in neutral. Then I move it to the other gear in that gate and pull it back. I see where the lever is actually stopping and see if there is movement in that lever which can throw off your neutral gate....which means you have wear inside your transmission on the sliders and shift forks. Using the gauge tool to index your neutral gate is also something I use so when I pull back on the lever and it clicks.... I check to make sure the gauge tool will work in both directions. IF it DOES NOT...then internal wear is the only answer to your dilemma. Because changing the rod lengths is not going to compensate for the internal wear.

DUB

gguillot

Just a follow-up to this thread for future readers - I replaced the shifter and the rods with a complete kit from one of the well known vendors. The new setup SOLVED my shifting problem. I now get accurate, successful shifting in every gear. Thankfully I took the chance and invested in the new shifter and rods - the alternative was to pull the transmission and rebuild it. While I am sure I will do that at some point in the future, it is good to know that there was nothing wrong with the transmission - the shifters can simply get worn out enough to cause shifting problems.

theandies

Thanks for the follow up. It sure helps to close out a problem and helps us all to know your fix. Not every user does this but should.

DUB

AGREED....so GLAD you came back to let us know what you did and how it worked out.

I am glad what you did fixed it and it STAYS working as it is currently.

If the same problem develops again in a short time then it is an internal issue if you know for a fact that what you just installed is staying put where you put it.

DUB

69Vett

you correctly setup the shifter alignment, and then adjusted your shift rods properly ?
I suspect that would have cured the orginal shifter issues also , if a new setup worked.

gguillot

Thats a reasonable assumption, but I rebuilt the original shifter and reinstalled using the procedure in the AIM, including the little neutral position lock tab. The shifter had the same problem upon reinstallation. I installed the new shifter and rods using the same method and now the transmission shifts properly in the 2nd to 3rd shift every time.

DUB

*****NOTE*****

I will say this for those who read this and plan on buying a new stock style shifter,

I have ..on rare occasion...purchased a new shifter that will work just fine when I manually check it. BUT...when I do a quick tear down and put one shift plate back in it. I have found that they ground down the chrome finger end of the shifter itself too short. They took off too much metal so the end of the shifter finger that engages with the notches in the plates is BARELY making contact....thus...reducing the amount of surface area that this portion of the shifter goes into the notch in the shifter plate...thus making it highly likely that it can wear out much faster.

I always check new shifters and I often times find myself adding more metal to it and extend this finger on the end of the shifter handle so it still allows the indexing tool to fit but has more metal to make contact with the notch of the shifter plate..

DUB

gguillot

DUB, upon further thinking about this issue, and the fact that folks seem to find it hard to believe that the shifter itself was the cause of this problem, AND after comparing the new shifter to the old one while both were on the bench, my theory is that the original shifter body had become very loose (I read somewhere here on the forum that someone would put the shifter body in a vise to squeeze it back together tightly when rebuilding.) And that the 3rd/4th shift plate would simply not stay in position (also probably due to slack in the rods and hardware) so when I went to shift, the "chrome finger" - as you call it - would hit the plate, stopping the shifter travel over to engage the plate. Practically every time I would shift, I would have to jiggle to find neutral, forcing that plate back into position so I could then engage it with the chrome finger and shift into 3rd.

Comparing both old and new shifter assemblies, it was very difficult to move the new shifter through its motions on my bench, whereas the original would just slop around and move freely. Had I had some way to compress the shifter body, I think that may have solved the problem - that and a close examination of the rods and hardware to make sure there were no elongated holes/slots. I still have the original, and will keep it. Maybe in the spring after it warms up my garage, I'll spend some time examining it to see.

DUB

I am not disputing that what you did was wrong in any way. You got your shifter to work as needed.

Yes you are correct in what you have read about squeezing the main body back together to get the shifter plates to not have severe slop in them due to that is what I can do on about 99% of the loose shifters I have dealt with. As you can tell by looking at the shifter housing it is stout but it is not bullet proof and you can see by how it is made it an spread apart. over time.

The plates on the shifter are super hard steel and even though they can wear thiner...it would take a very long time for them to thin out to the point where they need to be replaced...when like I wrote...simply squeezing the main housing a little can correct any wear. I have yet to have to buy the shifter plates to repair a shifter and I have done many. Most of the time it is the linkage rods that wear and I replace then or repair them or install new 'G' clips.

If the linkage, when installed on the shifter plates is solid and not having ANY front to back movement. And when the linkage is attached to the levers that attach to the transmission is also solid with no front to back movement. Keeping this front to back movement to a bare minimum is what will allow the shifter to work best, Then the shifter can be indexed and it will hold that position. UNTIL you use it. Because as you know there are no centering springs on the shifter to bring the shifter plates back to neutral.

If you shifter forks inside your transmission are worn and now have slop in the groove of that slider that allows you to change gears. Then even if the shifter is new...it will not change the fact that the slider is not going back to the neutral position....thus causing your 'neural gate ' to be off. This is why like I mentioned in post #4 to check how the levers when attached to the transmission come back to neutral so the at lever is always in the same position. So when you are in 1st gear and go to neutral you look a the were the lever is positioned...then go to 2nd and then back to neutral and see IF it is still in the same position as how it what when you did 1st gear. If the angle of the lever is different...then you can have a problem in adjusting your shifter and making it work. Especially if you can pick up a significant amount of free play in the lever where you can feel it. If it can go front to back and move the lever but you can tell you are not moving the shifter fork and slider.

So by you replacing what you did. You took out some of that slop and it works. But there can be issues when it does not due to like wrote...the slider is not going back to the neutral position thus causing you to actually to have to move the shifter handle a little bit more to get it to neutral so your shifter plates in your shifter will then be in neutral.

The shifter as you know is controlling components inside the transmission to make it work and if they have wear that is excessive enough...then it is what it is and all of the adjusting to a shifter linkage is not going to do anything like I have run into before.....other than the person who owns the car now has to know how to use the shifter to make it work due to these worn out internal parts. I have seen this problem many times when it come to pulling the shifter out of reverse and not being able to find the neutral gate immediately.

DUB

gguillot

Dub,

Is it advisable to remove the side cover and inspect/replace the shifter forks as a temporary proactive measure until the transmission can be removed and rebuilt? Since I believe it is possible to remove the side cover without removing the transmission, this seems like something that could be done quite easily.

DUB

Although getting the side cover off is 'do-able' I can say from experience trying to get the forks back into the slots of the sliders can be quite a challenge when you are basically working blind. I had to replace a part on a 1985 Borg-Warner manual due to the weld on the shaft broke and there was no 3rd-4th gear and I got it out and back in but it was a challenge but still no where near the time it would take to remove the stuff to get the transmission out.

AS for this inspection being that of one that I would advise people to do ..I doubt it. Simply because there is a lot more going on inside the transmission that just that area.

Keep in mind that I do this stuff for a living and no matter what. People often times feel that just because I have done something to a component that now miraculously made that repair fix all of the other issues it has going on where I did not even touch. Even though a thorough conversation on what is going on. they often times seem to not remember that but only that of what they spent money on is not fixing the entire problem. But yet they still chose to have it done even under my advisement NOT to do it.

EXAMPLE: I get Corvettes with an aged engine come into the shop and it is smoking out the exhaust when it is first cranked up in the morning or after it was allowed to sit many hours later ....but not so much smoke coming out when it is running but there is some when it is revved up.. The bluish-white smoke which lets me know it is oil burning. I can grab the alternator belt and EASILY spin the engine which tells me there is very little to no ring drag. Thus the engine is tired and will need to be rebuilt. I preform a the test by using the fresh air breather tube and many times the paper will blow off of the tube and not get sucked to it which tells me that the engine ahs a lot of blow-by or the crankcase is not fully sealed up.

I tells them that if I go in and remove the valve seals ( which is what they told me they wanted me to install) there is no guarantee that the valve guides or stems on the valves are still in great shape and they may be and are most likely also worn out thus making the valve seal installation a waste of time due to they can go bad and all that money was wasted and is like putting lipstick on a pig. So...I do it and then they comeback saying that it is still smoking and what to do. So I roll my eyes realizing that all of had spoke to them about was not heard and I am back to square one and have to say it again....which ...obviously they do not want to hear they need an engine. Which leads me right back to the owner thought that because I was installing valve seals that ALL of the oil burning issues are now miraculously repaired also.

DUB

theandies

I tell my mechanic the things that I only want fixed too and he tells me the same thing......lipstick on a pig thing. I guess my wife is correct, I don't listen very well as I'm my own mechanic and have done what you said.....just fix what's broken, those underlying problems will just go away on their own.......then I'm back in there fixing the pig again.

DUB

This reply is NOT directed at anyone specifically.

It has been said from time to time. "Those who think they know what needs to be done will often times not match that of what those of us who do know what we are talking about would do. And those people who do know what they are talking about and do not do what they know needs to be done will be doing it over and over again until they concede to the fact they should have done it the right way the first time."

And what happens here is a bunch of time and money is often wasted. But some people still feel they can re-invent the wheel and repair something differently than it has been mentioned only to prove to those who know what they were talking about were wrong and it did not need to be repaired 'their way'...because I did it 'my way'. Which is fine as long as the repair lasts.

I am glad I am not the only mechanic who tells it like it is. What do you guys want. A mechanic that says it like it is and is a straight shooter and does not sugar coat stuff..... or...... pussyfoots around the subject so feelings do not get hurt when the reality of how it needs to be fixed is different than what the owner wants or what the internet is saying how to do it.

DUB

gguillot

Dub,

Thanks for all your advice and observations. It is definitely valued here on the forum. As for my transmission issue, which seems to be resolved for now - I'll find out more when spring rolls around and I can get the car out for some serious driving again. I have no doubt the transmission needs a good rebuild and that will happen in the future, along with everything else I plan to refresh on this car. The last Vette took me five years to finish, I've only had this one 2 years, so I'm right on schedule!

DUB

Mikesfreetime

I notice the middle rod is different than shown on the manual and what I have on my 69? Is this normal? His picture shows all 3 with the same

MelWff

That looks to me like a Hurst shifter in the photo not a factory shifter it's bolted to the transmission the factory bracket is not there.