Best performing and least disruptive 4 or 6 point harness system for comp seat car?
10-22-2018, 01:56 PM
#1
Best performing and least disruptive 4 or 6 point harness system for comp seat car?
This winter I'd like to prepare my grand sport to accept a four-point with ASM or six point harness system on both seats (harnesses, harness bars, and any replacement internal panel covering requireed). I still want the stock seatbelts to be fully functional for street use, and when the racing harnesses are not in use, i'd prefer they be able to be routed behind the seat rather than having to be removed entirely between track sessions. Additional requirements are that either system be compatible with factory comp seats without requiring modification to the seat.
What are you the better recommendations out there for these requirements?
Thanks!
-Ash
What are you the better recommendations out there for these requirements?
Thanks!
-Ash
10-22-2018, 02:24 PM
#2
Melting Slicks
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I'm sure Bill will chime in with a much more detailed response than what I am going to provide but here goes...
Any harness bar, whether it be the SharkBar or Brey Krause bar will work. They each secure in a different location, and require modification to separate interior panels. I went BK bar because I personally believe it is better built, and is in a better location for harness angles.
Next you need to secure harnesses. With a stock seat, you have two options really... Either the Vetteworks Lap Belt Bar, or the Brey Krause Lap Belt mounts.
I think the Vetteworks solution is a little cleaner, and does not require removing the seat to install the brackets, but both have some drawbacks. The Vetteworks set up has you route your lap belts between the seat bottom and back, with the potential for belt chaffing, as there is a pretty stiff piece the belts *could* rub on over time. The BK lap belt mounts secure to the side of the seats and to operate with a 6 point, you clip in the sub belts, and sit on top of the sub belt, F1 style. The lap belts then clip to the side mounts and you can secure yourself. This is the method I used, and had absolutely no issues with tech at any track. That cannot be said if you attempt to use the ASM 4-point, regardless of what Schroth claims.
I now use a full race seat but did 1.5 years with the BK harness bar, BK lap mounts, and Schroth Pro-Fi II 6 point belts.
One item you may consider, and the direction I would probably go if I were to ever go back to using a stock seat, would be a Simpson Hybrid that works with a factory 3 point.
Any harness bar, whether it be the SharkBar or Brey Krause bar will work. They each secure in a different location, and require modification to separate interior panels. I went BK bar because I personally believe it is better built, and is in a better location for harness angles.
Next you need to secure harnesses. With a stock seat, you have two options really... Either the Vetteworks Lap Belt Bar, or the Brey Krause Lap Belt mounts.
I think the Vetteworks solution is a little cleaner, and does not require removing the seat to install the brackets, but both have some drawbacks. The Vetteworks set up has you route your lap belts between the seat bottom and back, with the potential for belt chaffing, as there is a pretty stiff piece the belts *could* rub on over time. The BK lap belt mounts secure to the side of the seats and to operate with a 6 point, you clip in the sub belts, and sit on top of the sub belt, F1 style. The lap belts then clip to the side mounts and you can secure yourself. This is the method I used, and had absolutely no issues with tech at any track. That cannot be said if you attempt to use the ASM 4-point, regardless of what Schroth claims.
I now use a full race seat but did 1.5 years with the BK harness bar, BK lap mounts, and Schroth Pro-Fi II 6 point belts.
One item you may consider, and the direction I would probably go if I were to ever go back to using a stock seat, would be a Simpson Hybrid that works with a factory 3 point.
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ashmostro (10-22-2018)
10-22-2018, 04:42 PM
#3
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I went with the Simpson Hybrid Hans and tried that with the factory seats. I also liked the BK harness bar the best.I was not satisfied with the factory seats and also chose to install race seats. That is a much better option in my opinion and I put them on both sides. I put my factory seats in the box the racetech seats came in and will swap them back out if I sell the car. I can't tell you how much better a race seat is on track but if you try it I doubt you'd go back to stock seats.
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ashmostro (10-22-2018)
10-22-2018, 05:44 PM
#4
Sr.Random input generator
There is BK bar and Shark bar as two major options. BK bar would likely obstruct the rear view from the looks of it, so I went with the Shark bar.
Regarding harness, Schroth Profi II ASM would be my pick. Sicne it's ASM, you'd not be pinned at your seat during an accident (which I've unfortunately tested out; it works!). As such, you would not require a full cage with that harness to avoid becoming a load bearing column to support your roof in the event of a flip. The center lock also comes with receptors for the sub-marine, so if you would like to, you can always add that, too. That said, I used it in 4-point setup, and I've been happy with it.
Regarding tank plate (mounting points), Shark bar's plate increases the height of the seat since it's sandwiched, and I didn't like it, since I'm already almost rubbing the roof as is. BK's solution has no such issues, but it has sharp edges, and you can easily hurt yourself getting in and out of the car. If you could get those edges machined out, it would work better for sure.
Regarding harness, Schroth Profi II ASM would be my pick. Sicne it's ASM, you'd not be pinned at your seat during an accident (which I've unfortunately tested out; it works!). As such, you would not require a full cage with that harness to avoid becoming a load bearing column to support your roof in the event of a flip. The center lock also comes with receptors for the sub-marine, so if you would like to, you can always add that, too. That said, I used it in 4-point setup, and I've been happy with it.
Regarding tank plate (mounting points), Shark bar's plate increases the height of the seat since it's sandwiched, and I didn't like it, since I'm already almost rubbing the roof as is. BK's solution has no such issues, but it has sharp edges, and you can easily hurt yourself getting in and out of the car. If you could get those edges machined out, it would work better for sure.
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ashmostro (10-22-2018)
10-22-2018, 05:49 PM
#5
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I'm sure Bill will chime in with a much more detailed response than what I am going to provide but here goes...
Any harness bar, whether it be the SharkBar or Brey Krause bar will work. They each secure in a different location, and require modification to separate interior panels. I went BK bar because I personally believe it is better built, and is in a better location for harness angles.
Next you need to secure harnesses. With a stock seat, you have two options really... Either the Vetteworks Lap Belt Bar, or the Brey Krause Lap Belt mounts.
I think the Vetteworks solution is a little cleaner, and does not require removing the seat to install the brackets, but both have some drawbacks. The Vetteworks set up has you route your lap belts between the seat bottom and back, with the potential for belt chaffing, as there is a pretty stiff piece the belts *could* rub on over time. The BK lap belt mounts secure to the side of the seats and to operate with a 6 point, you clip in the sub belts, and sit on top of the sub belt, F1 style. The lap belts then clip to the side mounts and you can secure yourself. This is the method I used, and had absolutely no issues with tech at any track. That cannot be said if you attempt to use the ASM 4-point, regardless of what Schroth claims.
I now use a full race seat but did 1.5 years with the BK harness bar, BK lap mounts, and Schroth Pro-Fi II 6 point belts.
One item you may consider, and the direction I would probably go if I were to ever go back to using a stock seat, would be a Simpson Hybrid that works with a factory 3 point.
Any harness bar, whether it be the SharkBar or Brey Krause bar will work. They each secure in a different location, and require modification to separate interior panels. I went BK bar because I personally believe it is better built, and is in a better location for harness angles.
Next you need to secure harnesses. With a stock seat, you have two options really... Either the Vetteworks Lap Belt Bar, or the Brey Krause Lap Belt mounts.
I think the Vetteworks solution is a little cleaner, and does not require removing the seat to install the brackets, but both have some drawbacks. The Vetteworks set up has you route your lap belts between the seat bottom and back, with the potential for belt chaffing, as there is a pretty stiff piece the belts *could* rub on over time. The BK lap belt mounts secure to the side of the seats and to operate with a 6 point, you clip in the sub belts, and sit on top of the sub belt, F1 style. The lap belts then clip to the side mounts and you can secure yourself. This is the method I used, and had absolutely no issues with tech at any track. That cannot be said if you attempt to use the ASM 4-point, regardless of what Schroth claims.
I now use a full race seat but did 1.5 years with the BK harness bar, BK lap mounts, and Schroth Pro-Fi II 6 point belts.
One item you may consider, and the direction I would probably go if I were to ever go back to using a stock seat, would be a Simpson Hybrid that works with a factory 3 point.
Bill
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ashmostro (10-22-2018)
10-22-2018, 09:41 PM
#6
Melting Slicks
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I used this method of attaching the belts with the Shark Bar (which I believe gives a better angle to the belts coming off my shoulder). I have the Profi II ASM DOT approved belts which can also accept a 2 point sub strap. I only use the sub belts at events where they don't accept 4 points. So far NCM is the only one that won't accept the ASM configured as a 4 point. What is interesting is you can install a sub belt that runs through the stock seat bottom and attaches to anything below the seat including a strong string and it would pass their inspection. You can't see what the belt is attached to because the seat hides it from view and as long as it can hold up to a tug or two from somebody's hand it will pass. That doesn't mean it will actually do anything though as nobody can apply any where near as much force to the belt as an actual incident will.
Bill
Bill
Your posts are always so thorough and detailed.
10-22-2018, 09:56 PM
#7
Thanks all who have already responded.
So, I think as far as the harness bar is concerned, I'm going to go with the Sharkbar, as this is as much a street touring car that I use with my wife on trips to the countryside as I do for the track. I don't like the idea of an obstructed rear view, so there's that decision. I also think that the lower angle at least visually makes more sense for the stock Comp seats. I do concede the Brey Krause bar looks *way* more beefy, but oh well.
So now to figure out the rest - I have research to do thanks to your comments. Will post back up once I get a bit smarter and have intelligent questions to ask about those products. Actually I do have one quick one: which of the options that have been mentioned will allow me to leave the harnesses in the car, essentially "clipped in" but behind the seats to keep them out of the way and not clanking, for street driving? I want a solution that's as quick and easy as possible to switch from street mode 3-point lap belt to track mode 4/6 harness.
Oh wait, one more question. What do folks do to disable the seatbelt chime when using the harness? Do you insert a dummy OEM belt clip into the receptacle? Or is the OEM clip one of the "mounting points" for the racing harnesses?
Thanks again
So, I think as far as the harness bar is concerned, I'm going to go with the Sharkbar, as this is as much a street touring car that I use with my wife on trips to the countryside as I do for the track. I don't like the idea of an obstructed rear view, so there's that decision. I also think that the lower angle at least visually makes more sense for the stock Comp seats. I do concede the Brey Krause bar looks *way* more beefy, but oh well.
So now to figure out the rest - I have research to do thanks to your comments. Will post back up once I get a bit smarter and have intelligent questions to ask about those products. Actually I do have one quick one: which of the options that have been mentioned will allow me to leave the harnesses in the car, essentially "clipped in" but behind the seats to keep them out of the way and not clanking, for street driving? I want a solution that's as quick and easy as possible to switch from street mode 3-point lap belt to track mode 4/6 harness.
Oh wait, one more question. What do folks do to disable the seatbelt chime when using the harness? Do you insert a dummy OEM belt clip into the receptacle? Or is the OEM clip one of the "mounting points" for the racing harnesses?
Thanks again
10-22-2018, 10:07 PM
#8
There is BK bar and Shark bar as two major options. BK bar would likely obstruct the rear view from the looks of it, so I went with the Shark bar.
Regarding harness, Schroth Profi II ASM would be my pick. Sicne it's ASM, you'd not be pinned at your seat during an accident (which I've unfortunately tested out; it works!). As such, you would not require a full cage with that harness to avoid becoming a load bearing column to support your roof in the event of a flip. The center lock also comes with receptors for the sub-marine, so if you would like to, you can always add that, too. That said, I used it in 4-point setup, and I've been happy with it.
Regarding tank plate (mounting points), Shark bar's plate increases the height of the seat since it's sandwiched, and I didn't like it, since I'm already almost rubbing the roof as is. BK's solution has no such issues, but it has sharp edges, and you can easily hurt yourself getting in and out of the car. If you could get those edges machined out, it would work better for sure.
Regarding harness, Schroth Profi II ASM would be my pick. Sicne it's ASM, you'd not be pinned at your seat during an accident (which I've unfortunately tested out; it works!). As such, you would not require a full cage with that harness to avoid becoming a load bearing column to support your roof in the event of a flip. The center lock also comes with receptors for the sub-marine, so if you would like to, you can always add that, too. That said, I used it in 4-point setup, and I've been happy with it.
Regarding tank plate (mounting points), Shark bar's plate increases the height of the seat since it's sandwiched, and I didn't like it, since I'm already almost rubbing the roof as is. BK's solution has no such issues, but it has sharp edges, and you can easily hurt yourself getting in and out of the car. If you could get those edges machined out, it would work better for sure.
Am I thinking about this correctly?
10-22-2018, 10:10 PM
#9
Melting Slicks
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Either bar would allow you to leave the belts attached to the bar behind the seat. I do that some times, but it should be noted the buckles can damage the seat back if not wrapped in some sort of protective wrap. They can also move around and make noise. I used some seat belt pads that velcro around the belts to cover the belts so they can't wreak havoc when not in use.
The seatbelt does not continue to chime in these cars. You'll have the seat belt light on in the car but you just press okay to the seat belt warning on the dash, and that's all.
I do agree, in a mostly street-driven car, the shark bar is probably the best bet as it is less obtrusive. The BK bar does not interfere with rear vision at all as far as I remember. It does make just throwing something in the back much more difficult.
The seatbelt does not continue to chime in these cars. You'll have the seat belt light on in the car but you just press okay to the seat belt warning on the dash, and that's all.
I do agree, in a mostly street-driven car, the shark bar is probably the best bet as it is less obtrusive. The BK bar does not interfere with rear vision at all as far as I remember. It does make just throwing something in the back much more difficult.
Last edited by fleming23; 10-22-2018 at 10:12 PM.
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ashmostro (10-22-2018)
10-22-2018, 10:14 PM
#10
One more question and then bedtime for me.
What would one need this product for? Not sure what purpose it serves if I am going to use this 6-point capable harness mount. Are those mutually exclusive parts?
What would one need this product for? Not sure what purpose it serves if I am going to use this 6-point capable harness mount. Are those mutually exclusive parts?
10-22-2018, 10:17 PM
#11
Either bar would allow you to leave the belts attached to the bar behind the seat. I do that some times, but it should be noted the buckles can damage the seat back if not wrapped in some sort of protective wrap. They can also move around and make noise. I used some seat belt pads that velcro around the belts to cover the belts so they can't wreak havoc when not in use.
The seatbelt does not continue to chime in these cars. You'll have the seat belt light on in the car but you just press okay to the seat belt warning on the dash, and that's all.
I do agree, in a mostly street-driven car, the shark bar is probably the best bet as it is less obtrusive. The BK bar does not interfere with rear vision at all as far as I remember. It does make just throwing something in the back much more difficult.
The seatbelt does not continue to chime in these cars. You'll have the seat belt light on in the car but you just press okay to the seat belt warning on the dash, and that's all.
I do agree, in a mostly street-driven car, the shark bar is probably the best bet as it is less obtrusive. The BK bar does not interfere with rear vision at all as far as I remember. It does make just throwing something in the back much more difficult.
As for the BK bar - are you certain there's no rear view obstruction? I don't care at all about not being able to throw something into the trunk from the cabin - I never do that. I do leave the OEM fabric cover mounted to the front-most anchor locations in the trunk, so I wouldn't want the bar to interfere with that. My guess is either bar would sit "in front of" the trunk cover though.
10-22-2018, 10:31 PM
#12
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Very helpful, thank you. Do most people just remove the belts completely from the car when not in use then?
As for the BK bar - are you certain there's no rear view obstruction? I don't care at all about not being able to throw something into the trunk from the cabin - I never do that. I do leave the OEM fabric cover mounted to the front-most anchor locations in the trunk, so I wouldn't want the bar to interfere with that. My guess is either bar would sit "in front of" the trunk cover though.
As for the BK bar - are you certain there's no rear view obstruction? I don't care at all about not being able to throw something into the trunk from the cabin - I never do that. I do leave the OEM fabric cover mounted to the front-most anchor locations in the trunk, so I wouldn't want the bar to interfere with that. My guess is either bar would sit "in front of" the trunk cover though.
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ashmostro (10-23-2018)
10-22-2018, 10:32 PM
#13
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One thing I could get figured out with the sharkbar was how to get the top belts in the 0 to 20 degree range that was recommended with the stock seats. I'm 6'3" tall so that may have been my issue. When I put in the racetech seats it lowered the seat, from stock, so it might have worked with it. I ended up using the bottom instead of the top mounting position for the belt.
10-22-2018, 10:33 PM
#14
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Very helpful, thank you. Do most people just remove the belts completely from the car when not in use then?
As for the BK bar - are you certain there's no rear view obstruction? I don't care at all about not being able to throw something into the trunk from the cabin - I never do that. I do leave the OEM fabric cover mounted to the front-most anchor locations in the trunk, so I wouldn't want the bar to interfere with that. My guess is either bar would sit "in front of" the trunk cover though.
As for the BK bar - are you certain there's no rear view obstruction? I don't care at all about not being able to throw something into the trunk from the cabin - I never do that. I do leave the OEM fabric cover mounted to the front-most anchor locations in the trunk, so I wouldn't want the bar to interfere with that. My guess is either bar would sit "in front of" the trunk cover though.
10-22-2018, 11:00 PM
#15
Sr.Random input generator
How much does the vetteworks harness mounting plate raise the rear of the seat? Looks like it's just millimeters, no? Note, I'm not tall, so I don't have any worries about my helmet hitting the roof. That said, I really like a low seating position, so I wouldn't want it to be raised more than just the thickness of a metal plate, which again I would expect to be millimeters not inches.
Am I thinking about this correctly?
Am I thinking about this correctly?
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ashmostro (10-23-2018)
10-23-2018, 12:56 AM
#16
More thanks all around.
I’m short - 5’8”, so I’ll be in a different position than you normal sized folks. That said, I feel like I should probably find people who have the various versions of these equipment installed and sit in their cars IRL.
Anybody in the Northern Virginia area?
I’m short - 5’8”, so I’ll be in a different position than you normal sized folks. That said, I feel like I should probably find people who have the various versions of these equipment installed and sit in their cars IRL.
Anybody in the Northern Virginia area?
10-23-2018, 01:15 AM
#17
Regarding the BK seat harness mounts’ sharp edges reported above, do they do any chafing or digging into the seat leather itself?
10-23-2018, 01:49 AM
#18
Sr.Random input generator
10-23-2018, 10:28 AM
#19
Melting Slicks
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10-23-2018, 10:33 AM
#20
I think I've been convinced to go with the BK seat harnesses. I will likely deburr and chamfer key edges, and I may wrap portions of them with some sort of softer material to prevent the scuffing mentioned above. Feels like things that can easily be solved for, and I really don't like the idea of raising the back of the seat as with the vettewerks solution.
I'm also leaning towards the BK harness bar now. What's the correct test to assess which bar is the right height for me and my seating position + body? Should I have someone take a profile picture of me sitting in the seat? My understanding is, I should be aiming for a confiuration where the should harnesses would be coming through the seat without resting on the bottoms of those cutouts, and the angle to the harness bar should be horizontal, or up to 25-ish degrees downward from it.
Does this sound right?
I'm also leaning towards the BK harness bar now. What's the correct test to assess which bar is the right height for me and my seating position + body? Should I have someone take a profile picture of me sitting in the seat? My understanding is, I should be aiming for a confiuration where the should harnesses would be coming through the seat without resting on the bottoms of those cutouts, and the angle to the harness bar should be horizontal, or up to 25-ish degrees downward from it.
Does this sound right?