grandsport2017

There have been at least 5 significant Corvette crashes this season in my VIR/Summit Point track community that resulted in total loss, or almost total loss, of the car. Thankfully, no personal injury, at least that I'm aware of. Has there been an unusually high number of crashes this season? How does this season compare to prior seasons? If more, is it possibly a function of the drivers in the community simply getting faster on average and therefore more risk?

I happen to be one of the 5. After a cold tire related crash at Summit Point, my '17 GS has been in the shop for 2.5 months. Hoping to get the car back this week. I'm the slowest driver of the crash group (PB of 2:08.9 on VIR Full in a stock GS FE6 on MPSS). I have to admit that knowing better drivers have had off track excursions helped with the ego healing process. Many thanks to all of you who were willing to post about your experiences here. The GS is my first Corvette and first sports car. I've had a blast learning to drive it. I can't imagine ever keeping it as a garage queen, so I've had to accept that if I keep driving it on track that there's a chance that I will go off track again. It's just that track driving is a high-risk activity.

I feel like the stock safety systems are adequate for my personal safety and I use track insurance. Is there anything else I can do to manage the risk? Skidpad training? Practice on simulators? As I've gotten more comfortable on track I've had to work harder to not take the risks for granted. The survival instinct kicked in much sooner when I was starting out. How do experienced drivers avoid overconfidence?

TrackAire

Accidents can happen to anybody and we have all screwed up...and the chances of hitting oil or liquids dropped by another car is something that you have no control over. So never track a car that you can't easily walk away from in a worst case scenario.

But, having said that......do not waste your time with skidpads or video games. Just figure on spending around $4000 and go to a real 3 to 4 day driving school and get expert driving instruction. You may even want to go back for an advance course 12 to 18 months later. I'm not a believer in hiring a driving instructor to teach you during a live track day event if you're a beginner. There is too much going on for you to be able to do repetitive driving exercises on the track. Driving schools are not open track events....you practice techniques over and over with watchful eyes in the car and outside the car. You just can't do that during an open track even with multiple other cars on the track unless you rent out the entire track for yourself. Even pro drivers go back to driving schools to sharpen their skills or work on specific weaknesses. When learning something such as driving on the track, only perfect practice makes perfect. Doing more track days with the wrong technique will only be a waste of your time and money....and lead to frustration which can sour your whole driving experience. If you learn bad habits then it takes a lot more time and money to get retrained.

I'm just an above average track day driver that has the ability to learn from pro drivers and listen to their advice. Good luck and enjoy the upcoming track season!!

Poor-sha

I don't know that this has been an exceptionally bad year but obviously for you and I it has. I have seen a steady increase in the number of C7s and in particular C7 Z06s at the track so it could simply be a function of higher numbers. In the end, offs can happen because of driver error, mechanical failure of your vehicle, or an external factor including other vehicle collision, fluids, debris or animals on the track. You can't really do much about the latter and the first is clearly what you are focused on for good reason.

For me, this was my first major shunt in a decade of doing this and I don't feel I've gotten complacent. I am keenly aware of the risk and we all make mistakes all the time. Unfortunately in my case it happened in a place and under circumstances that really left no room to correct. I am contemplating doing a video series where I breakdown using PDR data the incidents that myself and others I know (with their permission) have had happen but I need to talk to the others first to see if they are willing to do this. If you have PDR data of your incident and want to be one of the case studies PM me.

For intermediate and fresh advanced group drivers more often than not the problem is simply that they don't have the practice and skills to recognize early and react correctly when a car exceeds the limits of grip. Things like lifting when the backend steps out, opening the wheel and letting the car run gently off track rather than putting more wheel in when you are offline or too fast, or going back to the throttle too aggressively are all common problems that bite even advanced drivers. Worse yet, most people don't have actual data (or don't use it) to understand what they did wrong and I can tell you from talking to drivers and then looking at the data that they rarely remember things entirely correctly. Finally, there is in general a culture of being afraid to share what happened due to embarrassment or concerns over liability which means the rest of us don't really get to learn.

The safest thing to do is to hone your skills until you reach a threshold below the limit of the car but you will plateau in your skills and there still is a chance you could make a mistake. To go further you will need to take more risks and get outside of your comfort zone and that is where car control becomes a major factor. You can get some experience with how to handle the car at and over the limit from skid pad or wet figure-8 exercises but there is such a limited range there and you have the luxury of slowly working up to the limit that you won't necessarily have on track. I think simulators are great at teaching the proper reactions (e.g. don't lift, more gas) in a low/no risk environment but they won't give you all the sensory input you need to really find that limit. Eventually you need to get comfortable pushing the car in identified "safer" parts of the track that will allow you hone that feel and reaction. One last piece of advice I can offer from several people I know who have had accidents is to never rush out on track. If you're running late just accept that you are going to miss some track time, take a deep breath, and make sure you are mentally prepared and not rushing out flustered and lacking focus on the track.

As far as safety systems go there is a lot of debate. Personally, I've been a big believer in safety as a system and not piecemealing things together. The OEM safety system is very good and at least in my case both myself and my passenger walked away unhurt from an off that destroyed the car. I've also been in a Viper that hit the wall and rolled and we both walked away even though that car was effectively totaled as well - also with entirely stock safety systems. I can't say that will be the case for all incidents though and at a minimum you need to get something like Simpson Hybrid-S. For me, my next car will be with a full cage, race seats, harnesses, and a fire suppression system but I've intentionally decided that I don't want the overhead of tracking a street car anymore - that's not the right call for everyone.

Anyway, hope this helps.

ckchan10

fgodoy

What about actual racing in a lower HP car? For better or worse a DE event has no pressure to maintain your pace at 9-10/10ths throughout the day or session. And you won't get to practice car control at the limit if you aren't at the limit to begin with.
I have only been doing DE for the past year but feel like racing in something less than 500hp/C7 is where I want to go for this reason. Besides other benefits like learning to be faster when off the "ideal line", etc.
What are all of your thoughts on this?
You guys have all been a helpful source of knowledge by the way and most if not all of the forum look up to you all!

argonaut

Several years ago at Lightning in a C5 I crested the hill on turn 1, got the left side just slightly off track, tried to hold it and it instantly snapped the back end around 180 degrees and I ended up in the inside tirewall. I had years of experience at that point and had been told a thousand times that if you are about to go off...just go off, don't try to hold it on track. And yet in that instant I chose wrong. It happens unbelievably quick and you have zero time to think, you only react. Even though your brain knows what you should do, its pure muscle memory that takes over in a situation like that. I've long wished that we could practice 'offs' in a safe environment to build up that kind of muscle memory.

dclafleur

I can't speak to VIR but I've had more track days this year in the cold than I've had in the past. In every one I've seen someone spin or go off early, I spun on my first track day of the season with cold tires too. I don't know if it is any different than previous seasons but I've wondered if our efforts to extend the season paired with tires that have a massive drop off in effectiveness in the cold comes into the equation somewhere.

Poor-sha

That is exactly why I recommend simulators. Even something as simple as an Xbox with Forza works if you have a decent wheel and pedals. Personally I think iRacing is the most realistic and try to do a lot of Solo practice time. My biggest complaint is that many of the tracks I run are now out of date

Quickshift_C5

fleming23

^^^That bird almost had a very bad day at the 0:01 mark.

Quickshift_C5

grandsport2017

Poor-sha, I was planning to contact you for help with the PDR analysis, but when I got home and looked at the SD card, the PDR did not save video. Very disappointing. The car behind me, a C6 Z06 I believe, did not have his camera running, so as far as I know there isn't any video available. I really wanted to see what I did so I could learn from it.

Regarding embarrassment - it's a very real thing. Nobody wants to be "that guy". I have to say though that the folks at the track that day were very supportive and encouraging.

Do you have any recommendations on identified "safer" parts of the track at VIR and Summit Point? Oak Tree? I also wish there was a safe place to practice 'offs' or at least the potential of an 'off'. I'm thinking that a proper driving school, as TrackAire said, is the way to go if I can use my own or a similar car.

In most sessions, I get passed a lot during the first 10-15 minutes while I'm warming up my tires, then I spend the next 15 minutes working my way back through traffic. On this particular day, the first three sessions were great. Did my fastest lap in traffic on the last lap of the third session chasing a Gen 5 Z28. Even had a bit of oversteer coming out of turn 5. No big deal. I was feeling good about the car at the start of the 4th session. On the second lap of the 4th session I lost the rear end coming out of turn 2. It caught me by surprise. Loss of grip on cold tires seems to happen much more quickly.

In general, I know how to handle oversteer. I could drive a slower car, but I want to learn "at the limit" recovery in the GS. In other words, the issue is providing the correct recovery inputs for the GS which would be different from a Miata e.g.. I practice quite a bit on Forza with wheel and pedals. I credit my simulation time with a 4 second drop in my VIR Full lap time. (Also, the MRC upgrade and a ride-along with Newton06.) I ended the 2017 season stuck at 2:13. Practiced on the simulator during the winter and was down to 2:09 on my first day back on track in 2018.

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses.

Quickshift_C5

Try giving Asetto Corsa or Project Cars 2 a shot on the console if you have a wheel and pedal setup. Forza can work if it's all you have, but it's not a real simulator. It blends sim with arcade elements to make the game more accessible to a wide audience. Asetto and PCARS are true racing sims more along the lines of Iracing, so it's more far more realistic.

Poor-sha

Unfortunately your situation with the PDR is very common. You need to make sure you stop the recording before you shut off the car. At least in my case the motor wasn't running but the electronics stayed on and I was able to stop the recording. I've tried recovering the file for some folks but generally you can only get up to the video shortly before the incident. PM me and if you still have the .raw file I can at least take a look. It's also worth noting that it's the data streams in the PDR file that are really valuable more so than just the video. You can see things in the data trace that aren't really obvious by watching the video.

As far as where to practice getting closer to the limit the general rule is that you want slower turns where there is some run off. However, there rarely a 100% safe place and there is still an element of making sure you react properly (e.g. if there is lots of runoff room on the outside don't try to save it if you drop wheels and hook back to the inside where there is a wall). This is one of those cases where having an instructor that is familiar with your kind of car really helps.

I'd also strongly recommend you start looking at and learning how to use data (or get some help doing it). Once you get the basics down it'll take data to figure out where you can best gain time. I attribute most of my improvement the last 3 years to using data.

ErnieN85

fatbillybob

I have raced 22 tracks in the US. Many times those were new to me just practice session, qualy and race. So not much tracktime to learn. 1st thing I do is ask track local not for secrets but where are the car eating turns and what causes problems. You might hear T8 is off camber decreasing radius the exit is bumpy and there is a ditch 10 feet off the tarmac hidden by the tall grass. I never ask for tips because I haven't even seen the track yet. But often a local will give you tips just to be helpful and everyone loves to sound like an expert especially to a track newbie. 2nd I use my experience and look at new turns and relate them to runs I know on my familiar home tracks. Diving into the infield at Daytona is much like diving into the infield at Autoclub speedway. 3rd I sneak up on increasing speed. 4th I prioritize important turns and pushing at those important turns against the danger at that turn from lack of runoff, walls, bumpy tarmac and so forth. The turn before a long straight with huge runoff is a go for it turn. 5th, know your runoff. CoTA it is painted grippy high friction tarmac all the way to the retaining fences. VIR it is very slippery grass all the way to the fences. When it is wet you are not stopping until you hit something. Willow Springs is hard dirt with little to hit but ruts can flip you on your roof. 6th, where you are pushing have an escape plan. Think about how you will correct for oversteer. Think about how to deal with understeer.

Bill Dearborn

Sean,
I don't know whether or not you still have my PDR data file but when you get around to doing the PDR data analysis you have my permission to use my video and data to highlight what I did wrong when crashing off T10 (Southbend) at VIR.

I was lucky in the way my car hit the wall. It hit in the right rear corner and the only mechanical parts damaged or thought might be damaged were in the right rear suspension. It took 6 weeks of waiting but I finally got the car back.

Bill

TrackAire

You bring up an interesting point about Willow Springs and ruts. I don't know why tracks don't smooth out the track areas where cars can go off. About 5 years ago I was at Buttonwillow running my Viper and a brand new Porsche GT3 was following me. He somehow went off line a little too much to the left at "Phil Hill" and drove parallel to the track in the weeds (just what I would have done) to slow down and get back on the track. The dry grass was about 8" tall and hid a bunch of dips, holes, ridges, etc....the front spoiler/splitter got totally folded under the car in what looked to be a perfectly smooth surface. Car was leaking a ton of fluids and had to be towed home on a flatbed. This situation is totally avoidable if race tracks took care of their run off areas by grading and making sure there are no ruts, dips, etc. Mowing the grass/weeds down to the bare minimum also allows the driver to see what the true surface is before they even go "off".

It would take very little to smooth and grade the run off areas around the track to avoid car damage and more importantly to keep rollovers from happening.

Poor-sha

Thanks Bill. You were one of the guys I was going to reach out to. I appreciate you being willing to share to help us all learn.

fatbillybob

Yeasrs ago a noted CF member starteda petition to do exactly that for T8/9 at WSIR. It fell on deaf ears!