Wheel Balancing
12-13-2018, 09:01 PM
#1
1st Gear
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Wheel Balancing
Where should I take my 2003 Vet to get the tires balanced?
My local Chev dealer says they balance to comply with fed standards, or to about 70 mph.
Most places I think only guarantee the balance good to 70 mph.
Since the vet can go much faster, how can I get a higher speed balance?
Thanks in advance.
My local Chev dealer says they balance to comply with fed standards, or to about 70 mph.
Most places I think only guarantee the balance good to 70 mph.
Since the vet can go much faster, how can I get a higher speed balance?
Thanks in advance.
12-13-2018, 09:18 PM
#2
Where should I take my 2003 Vet to get the tires balanced?
My local Chev dealer says they balance to comply with fed standards, or to about 70 mph.
Most places I think only guarantee the balance good to 70 mph.
Since the vet can go much faster, how can I get a higher speed balance?
Thanks in advance.
My local Chev dealer says they balance to comply with fed standards, or to about 70 mph.
Most places I think only guarantee the balance good to 70 mph.
Since the vet can go much faster, how can I get a higher speed balance?
Thanks in advance.
Take it to any non-dealer tire shop that has a road-force balancer.
I find most NTBs to be competent and they offer a lifetime balance/rotation.
Last edited by VenkmanP; 12-13-2018 at 09:18 PM.
12-13-2018, 09:29 PM
#3
Drifting
Where should I take my 2003 Vet to get the tires balanced?
My local Chev dealer says they balance to comply with fed standards, or to about 70 mph.
Most places I think only guarantee the balance good to 70 mph.
Since the vet can go much faster, how can I get a higher speed balance?
Thanks in advance.
My local Chev dealer says they balance to comply with fed standards, or to about 70 mph.
Most places I think only guarantee the balance good to 70 mph.
Since the vet can go much faster, how can I get a higher speed balance?
Thanks in advance.
12-14-2018, 09:01 AM
#4
Le Mans Master
Most balancers are designed for 70 mph. A spin balanced is expected to maintain balance beyond 70 mph. Road Force balancing is supposed pick up sources of vibration that are not weight related ie defects in wheels and/or tires. How fast do you intend to drive? It would be unusual to have no vibration at 70 mph and shaking at 85.
12-14-2018, 11:17 AM
#5
Hunter G Force balance them
ive just gone thru an ordeal too long and painful to describe regarding some new tires that from Day 1 thought they were defective.
Went back to original installer who rebalanced them
nope
went to shop that I thought had a Hunter G FORCE balancer - but was only a “regular” Hunter machine , however for free they put my tires on their machine and said 3 were off by .5 to 1gram and gave me location of shop with Hunter G Force machine
Who unequivocally determined 3 tires were defective/ cannot be balanced within acceptable standards and had detailed read outs to show this
the major difference between a G Force balancing and most others , including a Hunter non G Force is not only is the tire spun at 2 - 3 times the speed but a roller assembly is engaged against the wheel & tire that simulates the “road force” the Tire experiences on your car at speed.
For example: your car weighs 2,000 pounds the roller exerts 500 pounds of pressure against the wheel / tire
theres a video somewhere on YouTube of the machine
they are way more expensive than the typical balancing machine
they are often found in NASCAR race shops
Went back to original installer who rebalanced them
nope
went to shop that I thought had a Hunter G FORCE balancer - but was only a “regular” Hunter machine , however for free they put my tires on their machine and said 3 were off by .5 to 1gram and gave me location of shop with Hunter G Force machine
Who unequivocally determined 3 tires were defective/ cannot be balanced within acceptable standards and had detailed read outs to show this
the major difference between a G Force balancing and most others , including a Hunter non G Force is not only is the tire spun at 2 - 3 times the speed but a roller assembly is engaged against the wheel & tire that simulates the “road force” the Tire experiences on your car at speed.
For example: your car weighs 2,000 pounds the roller exerts 500 pounds of pressure against the wheel / tire
theres a video somewhere on YouTube of the machine
they are way more expensive than the typical balancing machine
they are often found in NASCAR race shops
12-14-2018, 07:02 PM
#6
Melting Slicks
Best way is two plane balance to gram balancing. Tire shop will understand. My NCRS car is done this way BUT with stick on weights inside so as not to damage the outer lip- so it's less accurate...still no vibration at 130+. Also there is a spot on the tire that tells the shop to place that spot 180 degrees from valve stem.
12-14-2018, 07:21 PM
#7
Race Director
12-15-2018, 06:39 AM
#9
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: South-central Missouri
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I chased a slight vibration that peaked around 80 mph. It wasn't until I requested Discount Tire put them on their road force balancer that the problem was discovered - a WHEEL was less than perfect - had about 1/8-1/4" wobble (Chinese knock-off A-Molds). It was just perceptible and then only on a super smooth road and it wasn't affecting wear, so no high priority.
I was told too that they could shave the tires too - essentially put the tire on a lathe and spin them against a knife to assure no high spots, but I never looked into it. Just FYI.
I was told too that they could shave the tires too - essentially put the tire on a lathe and spin them against a knife to assure no high spots, but I never looked into it. Just FYI.
12-17-2018, 07:31 AM
#10
Melting Slicks
FWIW- I fought front end tire vibration for a good year or so. Tried a few different tires, Continental even threw in a free set because my dealer said one of the Conti's were out of round. They road forced balanced them, carefully installed, etc... Still had a vibration.
I found an old German mechanic down the road from my work. He doesn't have a road force balancer and is pretty old school. I took the wheels off my car at home and brought them to him, and I knew I was in the right place when I walked in and saw an old Lotus, Ferrari, and a pretty cool looking C3 up on the lift. He got them perfect first shot the old school way. I mean this car is smooth as glass over 100mph no vibration to speak of. My advice is to search around, avoid large dealers that are concerned about time and have a high turn over rate with techs. Find an old school specialist that cares.
You can have a perfect car but if the steering wheel vibrates at speed all confidence in the car is lost IMO.
I found an old German mechanic down the road from my work. He doesn't have a road force balancer and is pretty old school. I took the wheels off my car at home and brought them to him, and I knew I was in the right place when I walked in and saw an old Lotus, Ferrari, and a pretty cool looking C3 up on the lift. He got them perfect first shot the old school way. I mean this car is smooth as glass over 100mph no vibration to speak of. My advice is to search around, avoid large dealers that are concerned about time and have a high turn over rate with techs. Find an old school specialist that cares.
You can have a perfect car but if the steering wheel vibrates at speed all confidence in the car is lost IMO.
12-17-2018, 11:28 AM
#11
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
Cool post^^^....and I agree/good catch on the Michelin. 3 Oz? No way. 
I do typically all my own tires myself. a few years ago, I tool our CTS-V to Discount Tire for new tires. They tried to balance them 3 times and couldn't get them right. I finally gave up with them, drive the car to work and balanced the tires myself on our balancer at work (nothing special -not a road force balancer). They came out flawless, because I care, I guess.
I do typically all my own tires myself. a few years ago, I tool our CTS-V to Discount Tire for new tires. They tried to balance them 3 times and couldn't get them right. I finally gave up with them, drive the car to work and balanced the tires myself on our balancer at work (nothing special -not a road force balancer). They came out flawless, because I care, I guess.
Last edited by Tom400CFI; 12-17-2018 at 11:30 AM.
12-17-2018, 11:39 AM
#12
Safety Car
Just because they have a road force balance, that doesn't mean that the techs know how to use it, nor does it mean that they will do a true "road force" balance for the same price as a "throw it on, spin it up and put the weights where it says" spin balance.
A true road force balance means that they measure the wheel for runout, and make the mark that the machine tells you to make on the wheel (I mark mine with a sharpie across the barrel of the inside of the wheel, in addition to putting a sticker or temporary mark on the rim itself). Then the tire should be installed with the red dot lined up with the mark on the wheel.
A good way to know that they didn't do it right is if all four of the tires are mounted with the red dots aligned with the valve stems. Some techs do that, and there's tire shop lore that the valve stem marks the spot for wheel eccentricity. In my experience with doing actual road force balancing, the spot the machine tells you to mark is random on the wheel, and only rarely is it right where the valve stem is located.
A true road force balance means that they measure the wheel for runout, and make the mark that the machine tells you to make on the wheel (I mark mine with a sharpie across the barrel of the inside of the wheel, in addition to putting a sticker or temporary mark on the rim itself). Then the tire should be installed with the red dot lined up with the mark on the wheel.
A good way to know that they didn't do it right is if all four of the tires are mounted with the red dots aligned with the valve stems. Some techs do that, and there's tire shop lore that the valve stem marks the spot for wheel eccentricity. In my experience with doing actual road force balancing, the spot the machine tells you to mark is random on the wheel, and only rarely is it right where the valve stem is located.
12-18-2018, 11:46 AM
#13
Le Mans Master
In theory the best is the road force balance, then the spin balance, then bubble balance, etc.
In practice it may be different. I was an engineer at a car company and our cars were sensitive to balance issues. So we did a survey of a couple hundred shops in our state to check on how well they balanced. The result was poor. Over half of them did not get it within 1/4 oz. Some of them had operators who did not know what they are doing, others had broken/damaged equipment, others were not calibrated equipment, some just kept dirty equipment (and wheel/tires) during the balancing. So sometimes even a bubble balancer can be better than a high dollar machine if not done correctly like over half of the shops we checked on.
Like was stated above, when a balance is completed, remove it from the machine, rotate it 180 degrees and check the balance. If it is still zero then it is good. If it is not, you are seeing a machine balancing problem. In short the wheel/tire should be balanced whatever rotated position it is installed.
If you can find a shop that will work with you, great. If you can't you take your chances. Usually the bigger tire shops like Discount Tire and others recognize the need for doing a good job and keep the equipment good and operators who know how to do it.
Personally, I gave up and bought a tire machine and a balancer. It was a great move. Over the years I have more than paid for the machines several times by skipping the fees for having it done. It is also very handy to be able to do it when I want without transporting tires somewhere and waiting for their schedule. It also means I can check them easily I I suspect anything. It also is convenient for flats (although I hate having to do repairs like that)
Good luck
PS
Your dealer is feeding you a line of BS.
Balanced to fed standards?? It has been a few years, but when I was responsible for it there was no fed standard.
In practice it may be different. I was an engineer at a car company and our cars were sensitive to balance issues. So we did a survey of a couple hundred shops in our state to check on how well they balanced. The result was poor. Over half of them did not get it within 1/4 oz. Some of them had operators who did not know what they are doing, others had broken/damaged equipment, others were not calibrated equipment, some just kept dirty equipment (and wheel/tires) during the balancing. So sometimes even a bubble balancer can be better than a high dollar machine if not done correctly like over half of the shops we checked on.
Like was stated above, when a balance is completed, remove it from the machine, rotate it 180 degrees and check the balance. If it is still zero then it is good. If it is not, you are seeing a machine balancing problem. In short the wheel/tire should be balanced whatever rotated position it is installed.
If you can find a shop that will work with you, great. If you can't you take your chances. Usually the bigger tire shops like Discount Tire and others recognize the need for doing a good job and keep the equipment good and operators who know how to do it.
Personally, I gave up and bought a tire machine and a balancer. It was a great move. Over the years I have more than paid for the machines several times by skipping the fees for having it done. It is also very handy to be able to do it when I want without transporting tires somewhere and waiting for their schedule. It also means I can check them easily I I suspect anything. It also is convenient for flats (although I hate having to do repairs like that)
Good luck
PS
Your dealer is feeding you a line of BS.
Balanced to fed standards?? It has been a few years, but when I was responsible for it there was no fed standard.
12-19-2018, 02:39 AM
#14
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2003
Location: Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
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St. Jude '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-'18-‘19-'20-'21-'22-'23-'24
Factory wheels. Nitto 05s. Road force balanced.
176 mph with little tire vibration.
Mojave Magnum
176 mph with little tire vibration.
Mojave Magnum
12-24-2018, 12:56 AM
#15
Race Director
Here's a trick I use when having tires installed / balanced. If I suspect there may be issues with the way the wheel is being set up on the machine I let the guy balance it to "zero". Then I make him loosen the arbor, spin and wobble the wheel on the machine, and re-tighten it. If it doesn't say "zero" again, there's something wrong with the set up. In other words, the "zero" must repeat every time you put it on the arbor.
A couple years back I had 4 new Michelins installed on my POS S-10 that I drive every day for work. I took them the loose wheels, and picked them up with the new tires the next morning. While loading them up I looked at the weights. 3 of them had 1/4 to 3/4 oz. The last one I went to load had at least 3-1/2 oz on it. On a Michelin? NFW. I made the guy re-spin that one. One look at the tire showed the problem, the bead hadn't seated, and the tire was wobbling all over the place. He said "the wheel is bent, not my problem". "No it's not. LOOK at the wheel. It's fine. The tire tread is all over the place". We dismounted and remounted the tire a couple of times until it looked good spinning, and lo and behold, balanced with the same 1/4-1/2 oz the other ones had. He learned something. This same tech still does all my tire balance. He knows I'm fussy, but he also knows that I know what I'm doing, so if I suggest we try something he does it. I get decent results for the effort, but one has to be vigilant. There are multiple ways to screw something up. Even a simple tire installation / balance.
A couple years back I had 4 new Michelins installed on my POS S-10 that I drive every day for work. I took them the loose wheels, and picked them up with the new tires the next morning. While loading them up I looked at the weights. 3 of them had 1/4 to 3/4 oz. The last one I went to load had at least 3-1/2 oz on it. On a Michelin? NFW. I made the guy re-spin that one. One look at the tire showed the problem, the bead hadn't seated, and the tire was wobbling all over the place. He said "the wheel is bent, not my problem". "No it's not. LOOK at the wheel. It's fine. The tire tread is all over the place". We dismounted and remounted the tire a couple of times until it looked good spinning, and lo and behold, balanced with the same 1/4-1/2 oz the other ones had. He learned something. This same tech still does all my tire balance. He knows I'm fussy, but he also knows that I know what I'm doing, so if I suggest we try something he does it. I get decent results for the effort, but one has to be vigilant. There are multiple ways to screw something up. Even a simple tire installation / balance.
Been there, Done that! 
Like my Grandmother used to say, "You can lead a horse to water, But you have to drag a jackass!"Some of these arrogant tire "EXPERTS" couldn't pour **** out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel. You have to show them sometimes what you're talking about. I took a NEW tire back about three times when the guy said it was "perfectly balanced". I watched him check it and it WAS balanced, it just wasn't ROUND! You can balance an egg, you just can't roll it!
They got me another tire.
Last edited by Klondike; 12-24-2018 at 12:57 AM. Reason: forgot to say NEW tire