N875ED

OK, here's a topic that should generate some good debate....

Watching Mecum, Barrett-Jackson, and other auctions, along with the internet car sites, I find it interesting that the C4 is far and away the cheapest version of a Corvette out there. I get it... C1's are the epitome of nostalgia and cool in their own right. C2's are certainly the best performers in the early days. C5 thru C7s are fantastic, getting better with each evolution. But I can't for the life of me see why a 1981 C3 with about 180 HP out-prices a C4. (almost double in some cases)

Is it just the bottom of the depreciation curve for the C4, or is there something about this model that legitimately results in such a low price? The other night I watched Mecum Chicago and a nice-looking (on TV, anyway) 1989 sold for $5,000! The next car was an 83 Thunderbird that sold for the same price!

I don't get it. Any advice, explanation and words of wisdom out there?

Dls1dls1

It has come to light that owning a C4 may cause cancer, diabetes, high cholesterol, brain damage, athletes foot, gout, tennis elbow, rabies, mad cow disease, and loose stool. That being said, I still will never give up driving my 85 !!

cv67

The 81 is one of the best looking C3s...The C4? Electronics, older EFI. Who works on them, understands or has parts? They arent "in" and not always cheap to fix.
So take advantage of it and enjoy a fun car thats still cheap. Wish I could buy another musclecar for $2500.

CorvetteRules

I think in some cases buyers are thinking that the C2's and C3's are better speculation to increase in value as they get older faster than the C4's. I'm happy the C4's are very affordable. My 91 is a toy and while the paint and interior are not perfect it runs good and over time I can slowly make improvements. I don't have any expectations of it getting more valuable over time. Just the fun of driving it and making improvements satisfy me.

bb62

The C1s and C2s are rare and the C2s were for a long time the pinnacle of Corvette performance. That is why the big blocks of C2 era became both legends and early appreciating vehicles. The early C3s more or less held the performance line (through 1971) but over time became bloated and overwrought from a design standpoint. Still the market views the later C3s in terms of the earlier C3 due to the similarity of styling. This nostalgic view coupled with abysmal quality means that there are significantly fewer later C3s than were produced. The C4 in contrast is somewhat a victim of its success. They were much better quality from a durability standpoint so there are a lot of them out there. Thus the laws of supply and demand drive the fact that C3s will pull more in the market.

In my mind it has nothing to do with the availability of part or the technology. Big block components are both rarer and more expensive than C4 components and that doesn't stop people from keeping big blocks going. And if you think finding someone to work on your C4 is difficult, try finding someone who knows how to set up a C2 fuel injection or a tri-power set of carbs.

drcook

However if you watch Craigslist on a daily basis, more and more C2's are showing up AND the prices are coming down. At least in NE Ohio they are.

BLUE1972

I fixed the EFI and computer trouble on my 85, added a 6 speed while I was there

449er

The C3 ( even the last models) just have a better looking body style than the C4'S...That's my opinion on the current values anyway

FAUEE

This comes up like every other day.

bb62

Craigslist is not the place you go to find quality C2s. If anything, the good cars just keep going up in value.

FAUEE

Normally i would agree, but ive seen a few decent looking ones here locally too. Still not cheap, all high 40s and jp, but nice cars, and more reasonable than recently.

drcook

Craigslist is just one place to advertise and free.

There are 14 for sale local to me. There aren't 14 buyers of C2's local to me. Magnify that by the rest of the country. People might ask x amount for them, but just like C4's there are lots for sale and they simply aren't selling. I just looked around Raleigh, NC. (my brother lives there). There are about 10 there in various prices. About 14 in the San Antonio area where my kid lives.

That makes 38. Show me 38 C2 buyers. Magnify this by the rest of the country.

The next generation simply doesn't have the desire for an old car that burns oil, needs the suspension redone, rides like crap, eats gas, on and on. While it is not as "cool" as the '65 ragtop I had (and restored complete suspension rebuild, motorwork, interior, etc) the '96 I have rides better, gets better mileage and cost a lot less than folks want (but aren't getting with some exceptions) than the C2's on the market.

And for that 75 to 100 thousand that some folks are asking the younger crowd can get a much better Corvette.

The handwriting is on the wall. There are going to be lots of old guys and or their families stuck with cars that they want too much for and can't sell.

In the not too distant future, gasoline powered cars are just not going to be the "thing". Why do you think GM just did what it did ? The white collared folks they layed off sure weren't the electric motor platform engineers that they are concentrating on.

We have one of those shut down plants just east of us (Lordstown). Technology and time marches on. The folks that had the C2's and 3's on their posters unfortunately don't.

I have a friend with a 1970 C3 for sale. He is asking X-amount of money. I hooked him up with a serious buyer. The answer ? You want too much. You said when painted it there was some rust in the birdcage and on and on. So it will sit, not sold until he drops the price down below the others of the same vintage on the market.

With so many coming to market, why pay $70,000 for a car when you can just do Google searches, look on Craigslist etc and find the same car for $40,000 ???

The other great equilizer is the Internet. You are using it to access this forum. In the past you had to look hard to find a particular whatever. All you have to do now is sit at your desk and do the searching. The antique dealer around the corner from me was put out of business by eBay. He said I can't compete with the prices and offerings. Everyone is trying to move their stuff so they cut the price a little so the lowest price wins.

As far as C4's, there are 164 for sale locally to me on CL. Throw away the wanted ads, that will still be over 150. This doesn't count the ones sitting at the smaller car dealers that have been there for the last year and a half. Magnify that around the country and then ask "Why are C4 prices so low"

bb62

I wrote this a few weeks ago for a similar discussion in the C2 part of the forum. I think it is still valid.

These views of our C2 plummeting in value are ridiculous. All I keep on seeing that the people who grew up with these cars are aging out of them and that they will be like the model Ts of old. Sorry, I don’t buy it. Here’s why:

1. Unlike Model Ts or As in stock condition, C2 are still highway capable and even with the low HP options are still reasonably quick cars.
2. The C2s are of such iconic design that there will always be a significant market.
3. Unlike the view these cars are American and will stay here – there is now a global market for these cars. Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Aston Martins, and Porsches are all collected on in the global market. Corvettes, as the premium historical American sports car are being purchased by all sorts overseas.
4. Many of the supposed “barn find” cars will likely disintegrate back into nature. Point is that there aren’t that many of these cars left. Maybe about 50% - and a fair portion of those are poorly maintained drivers that their owners can’t afford. The nice ones will survive and thrive.
5. The lack of high tech makes the cars more easy to restore and maintain than many of the subsequent generations of cars (Corvettes or not).
6. TV shows like the velocity channel make these cars visible to the general public in a way that just driving around will not do.
7. Most relatively higher end sports car purchases are made by people older than there 20s and 30s these days. The demographic for a non-daily use car is going to be higher.
8. There are twice as many people in the US today than there were when thse cars were new. More population – more potential interested people (even if there are a lot more choices today compared with then).
9. ICEs are not going anywhere. Regardless of the desire to introduce electrics into the market, a mix of energy sources will be used for generations to come.

65Z01

I've been watching '89 verts for a bit now and see "asking" prices as low as $5k for ~100k miles and $15k for 28k miles, with the median around $10k for ~50k miles.

drcook

You have to understand that it is not that I don't like them, if circumstances had been different, I would still have that '65. But it would be a resto-mod now, with a 5 or 6 speed trans and a modern engine, at the minimum an L98 or beyond, and a better suspension.

Here in Ohio new construction, such as outlet malls, are starting to have charging stations built in the parking lots. This happening in rust belt Ohio is indicative of the future. Is it going to be 10 yrs from now, no. Let's see in say 15 or 20. You know the other auto companies are not going to sit back and let themselves get left behind. Once it really gets going it will be a snowball effect. There are already electric semi's on the market that can pull 80,000 lbs in a local driving environment.

The real impediment to electric vehicles is charging time. Once the engineers figure out how get the charge time down to the same amount of time that it takes to fill a tank, well then it is game on.

Then as the fleet ages and is cycled out, alternative fuels are going to take over and it will become too expensive to drive them.

The '65 I had was a blast to drive, fast and loud. But 5 to 6 mpg's on a good day. I could watch the gas gauge go down. Could I drive that car to Carlisle for the show ? Not at $3.00 plus a gallon. It is a 600 mile round trip and $70.00 in tolls. (that is the tolls for a car, not a pickup pulling a trailer. there is only 1 other viable way and construction and such turns it into hours and hours).

That would be $270.00 just to drive there, once, let alone food, beverages and anything we wanted to buy.

If you pay attention to what the majority of the younger "gearhead" crowd is buying, it sure isn't an old Corvettes. Mustangs and Challengers for the most part. X times the horsepower, better brakes. They can't look far enough ahead to see about working on them, or don't care. There is no more shop classes to help pique an interest and unless there is a family member, family friend or neighbor to get them interested in cars, then it doesn't happen. They turn into man-bunned whatevers.

Right now, within 5 minutes walking time of my home, there are 2 C3's sitting and rotting away. The folks kids and grandkids have no interest in them. An acquaintance that I went to school with, her dad's Vette is sitting and rotting away.

When I was in high school LOTS of kids had muscle cars or hot rods of one kind or another. Not today.

In the Corvette club I belong to, 98% of the members are older than me. I am 61. Think about that. There a few hangers on, but for the most part, they all own C5's and beyond, and mostly automatic trans cars. It is pretty much the same that I see at the regional shows. It takes a big show like Carlisle to get the classic Vettes out. And you can tell, that for the most part, they are garage queens. And if you take the time to track the owner down, I will wager 90% of them are an old guy.

It also costs too much to restore one for the average person. Simply take the cost of paint. Have you priced a gallon of lacquer lately if you want to do some touch up ? Or priced having someone paint a car. I was able to paint the Vette I had and other cars as lacquer was cheap. Now you have to use base coat clear coat, need the equipment and know how to shoot it, better equipment so you don't end up with COPD or kill yourself breathing the fumes. Mix some paint together to do some touchup spots, if you don't use it all, throw it away, it gets hard.

Technology and time marches on. I have seen that. In 1985 when I started in IT we were still on the remnants of punch cards, today your phone is more powerful than the mainframes I was working on.

Then the big gorilla in the room is simply the aging of the owners. There are more and more of them starting to come on the market again due to owners getting too old to get down in them, going to homes or passing away. The majority of C2 owners that I see are 70+, most in their late 70's early 80's. Those cars are hitting the market. As more and more show up, prices are going to come down as more and more folks scrabble for a limited market.

You can't look at it with eyes from our generation. You have to look at from the folks coming in behind us.

Izzy Dizzy

FAUEE

I agree with the sentiment about the c2 bubble bursting. Even my father is too young for the C2 to be "his generation", and he's 60 years old. He had a 79 as a young man, and the c4 ia the generation he likes style wise. The C2 looks cool, but as mentioned, there just arent as many big money buyers for them. Your totally restored c3 eith numbers matching and whatnot is of no value to me, because I'd want a 6 speed manual in it, and at that point would likely build a 454 ls2 fir it.

I watch the c3 for sale section here some. Katy all the people looking for projects want 79 to 82s. The guys that are attached to these early cars are aging and dying sorry to say. It's just a matter of time before the prices of those cars falls more as a result. Hell, I think the whole muscle car segment is due a major correction. What's going to be the worst part is the greedy kids selling the cars after they die expecting a ton because the restoration costs were high, and slowly realizing that they're not I heriting a car worth a fortune.

EVs are just a flash in the pan idea. Gas continues to stay cheap, and will continue to. Eventually fuel cell vehicles will take over, but not anytime soon. In the meantime, companies that invested heavily in EVs will suffer. GM closed a bunch of plants because they bet on sedans and compact cars and high gas prices. They failed to realize that those were not want customers wanted, despite what they were being pushed to offer. GM failed at product planning and those plants are paying the price.

Weck86

Here is my $.02, and that is all it's worth. To all my Corvette brothers and sisters re-read posts #12 and #15 by drcook. He speaks the truth. Read it and weep or rejoice, depending on your view of Corvette ownership. In overly broad terms the ones who rejoice understand that in today's world the C4 Corvette is a tremendous value (some at giveaway prices) for a driveable, enjoyable sports car. Noted: some mechanical skill my be required. But they get driven for what they are, a car, and a Chevy at that. The ones who weep are typically those who believe in the ability to own a Corvette for little or no cost (meaning that the car continues to appreciate) and maybe even make some money at time of sale. I think in general those days are gone for most 'Vettes. Yes, even the C2 and C3 number matching big block cars. The old guys who grew up with those cars are going out of market. As drcook implies the younger folks aren't emotionally connected to the era and won't spend the six figures to buy one. Yes they will always be worth more, but more will be come more and more relative, as in relative to what?

I take no joy in this scenario as I have been in and out of the Corvette world since 1973, as in owning one (fell in love with them at age 12 when I saw the first Chevy commercial for the '63). I've owned, in no particular order, except by year a: '63 vert, '66 coupe, 69 vert, '71 T-top, '85 coupe, '86 vert, '03 vert. Still have the '86 Pace Car. So I've seen some interesting times of the Corvette world in 45 years of Corvette ownership. Doesn't make me any smarter or my opinion any more valuable than anyone else's, but as they say "I've seen some things."

I'm into my '86 for about $10k and I got the car essentially for free from my brother as a "project". Rebuilt motor, rebuilt trans, completely new interior, now vert top frame, new wheel hubs, rotors, brake pads, shocks all around, etc and all the little items (yeah I kept track) and $10k later I have a pretty reliable ride. Paint is still an 8 footer, tho. Can I get close to $10k should I sell? NO Not only no, but H-NO! So I'm either nuts (a real possibility) or I did it because I like Corvette's and working on cars. Yes, this is what I tell my self and my wife.

Anyway I think that the C4, and Corvette in general, is migrating back to it's roots. And that is a really cool, fun and mostly fast car. Those that buy them now will hopefully drive and enjoy them and not be so concerned about the $$$$ at the end of the rainbow.

And to bb62, post #13, please take this as my opinion and not as a challenge or criticism, but I think you are engaging in wishful thinking. I used to think the same in the 1990's and early 2000's, but I think drcook has it nailed for today. Evidence? Obviously the Model T and A market. But also 60's muscle cars, restored anything (unless it has real unique provenance), street rods and stuffed dolls leaning on the fenders, where are they?

Let's all enjoy our Corvette, try to keep the community and hobby alive, and forget about the $. Like they say, "if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it" Buy a Honda. My $.02 and YMMV.

RetroGuy

I believe every used car is unique when it comes to the selling price value. The condition and mileage are a huge factor, of course. Also the "right buyer" is vital to achieve a higher selling price. Someone that's itchin' to buy a C4 model, will probably pay towards the high end if it's what they want, and it looks great! They won't wait and shop around for several months just to save a few $$$. In mild weather states, I say put your Vettes up for sale around tax refund time when people have a little extra cash (end of January thru April).

1993C4LT1

I disagree. I sold my ruby 3 months ago exact. Only to buy an M6 C4. I for dam sure am not going to overpay, at least what I consider over paying. Also, for my taste, the right car hasn't came along. I look at the 92-96 zf6 market daily, on every platform imaginable. There are several cars that have been for sale for months.