How much extra power if I had Meth?
01-21-2019, 06:28 PM
#1
How much extra power if I had Meth?
I am around 610RWHP now with a lower pulley, intake, TB, and exhaust. I am thinking about adding meth injection (likely a 50/50 mix) and having the car retuned. Any idea how much extra power I would make?
Do any of you have any real world results to share?
Thanks!
Do any of you have any real world results to share?
Thanks!
01-21-2019, 06:46 PM
#2
Melting Slicks
Well the water component of methanol injection will reduce power given the same boost level. Methanol itself is a high octane fuel that will also reduce power, the same way any racing fuel will.
So to answer your question... Less. Always less. Its like pissing on a fire. it slows down the reaction.
In turn this will allow you to run more boost pressure, which might make more power, depending on the flow of the compressor.
So the REAL question you should be asking is, How much more airflow will my compressor support before it runs out of breath? And then how much methanol will it take given my engine configuration to keep it from exploding violently.
So to answer your question... Less. Always less. Its like pissing on a fire. it slows down the reaction.
In turn this will allow you to run more boost pressure, which might make more power, depending on the flow of the compressor.
So the REAL question you should be asking is, How much more airflow will my compressor support before it runs out of breath? And then how much methanol will it take given my engine configuration to keep it from exploding violently.
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01-21-2019, 09:38 PM
#3
Well the water component of methanol injection will reduce power given the same boost level. Methanol itself is a high octane fuel that will also reduce power, the same way any racing fuel will.
So to answer your question... Less. Always less. Its like pissing on a fire. it slows down the reaction.
In turn this will allow you to run more boost pressure, which might make more power, depending on the flow of the compressor.
So the REAL question you should be asking is, How much more airflow will my compressor support before it runs out of breath? And then how much methanol will it take given my engine configuration to keep it from exploding violently.
So to answer your question... Less. Always less. Its like pissing on a fire. it slows down the reaction.
In turn this will allow you to run more boost pressure, which might make more power, depending on the flow of the compressor.
So the REAL question you should be asking is, How much more airflow will my compressor support before it runs out of breath? And then how much methanol will it take given my engine configuration to keep it from exploding violently.
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01-21-2019, 10:29 PM
#4
Racer
Well the water component of methanol injection will reduce power given the same boost level. Methanol itself is a high octane fuel that will also reduce power, the same way any racing fuel will.
So to answer your question... Less. Always less. Its like pissing on a fire. it slows down the reaction.
In turn this will allow you to run more boost pressure, which might make more power, depending on the flow of the compressor.
So the REAL question you should be asking is, How much more airflow will my compressor support before it runs out of breath? And then how much methanol will it take given my engine configuration to keep it from exploding violently.
So to answer your question... Less. Always less. Its like pissing on a fire. it slows down the reaction.
In turn this will allow you to run more boost pressure, which might make more power, depending on the flow of the compressor.
So the REAL question you should be asking is, How much more airflow will my compressor support before it runs out of breath? And then how much methanol will it take given my engine configuration to keep it from exploding violently.
Meth will cool IAT's and increase the octane rating allowing for more spark advance. Most people get into meth when they want to run more ethanol and need more fueling, or they are simply at the power level that demands more fueling. I am at 650 wheel with somewhat similar mods as you and no meth. I believe meth would be good for another 30-40 at your power level but more importantly it would keep consistent IAT's so you would not be having a power loss after back to back pulls. Not to mention, it will burn cleaner. Only concern would be if you have stock cats. From what I have seen, meth can be pretty rough on the catalytic converters. So that would be the only downside I could think of if you do have cats still on your car.
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AZGASSER (01-22-2019)
01-21-2019, 11:08 PM
#5
Melting Slicks
You can't just spray 50/50 and expect more power. The water removes energy. Power will always drop unless something else is also changed.
The benefit of 50/50 has very little to do with IAT. If the methanol evaporates in the intake tract, that means it turns to gas, and just like every other gas i.e. water vapor, it takes far more more space than it does when it was a liquid. Which means now you have less oxygen going into the cylinders, which also means less power. Therefore, you don't want the meth/water to evaporate before it enters the cylinder. Which means its heat capacity isn't realized i.e. there is no benefit to IAT cooling at all.
To put it another way. If you try to get an IAT benefit by injecting 50/50 early, it will displace air and reduce power even as the intake air temp drops.
Also, engines will make the most power with the largest mass of hot-as-possible air they can ingest. Hot air = more energy = more power.
I know it all sounds crazy but truth is stranger than fiction. Without raising the boost, there is very little benefit to 50/50 on top of what the op has.
Pushing timing is a bad idea to seek extra power from an FI engine. Let the boost do the work, don't try to add a bunch of timing to generate an unstable peak pressure just after TDC event. Yes it can add 20-40 horses on the dyno pulls but on the street and track those extra horses turn to pressure related accidents, component failures, all for barely any improvement.
The benefit of 50/50 has very little to do with IAT. If the methanol evaporates in the intake tract, that means it turns to gas, and just like every other gas i.e. water vapor, it takes far more more space than it does when it was a liquid. Which means now you have less oxygen going into the cylinders, which also means less power. Therefore, you don't want the meth/water to evaporate before it enters the cylinder. Which means its heat capacity isn't realized i.e. there is no benefit to IAT cooling at all.
To put it another way. If you try to get an IAT benefit by injecting 50/50 early, it will displace air and reduce power even as the intake air temp drops.
Also, engines will make the most power with the largest mass of hot-as-possible air they can ingest. Hot air = more energy = more power.
I know it all sounds crazy but truth is stranger than fiction. Without raising the boost, there is very little benefit to 50/50 on top of what the op has.
Pushing timing is a bad idea to seek extra power from an FI engine. Let the boost do the work, don't try to add a bunch of timing to generate an unstable peak pressure just after TDC event. Yes it can add 20-40 horses on the dyno pulls but on the street and track those extra horses turn to pressure related accidents, component failures, all for barely any improvement.
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01-21-2019, 11:21 PM
#6
Melting Slicks
Is this for real?
Meth will cool IAT's and increase the octane rating allowing for more spark advance. Most people get into meth when they want to run more ethanol and need more fueling, or they are simply at the power level that demands more fueling. I am at 650 wheel with somewhat similar mods as you and no meth. I believe meth would be good for another 30-40 at your power level but more importantly it would keep consistent IAT's so you would not be having a power loss after back to back pulls. Not to mention, it will burn cleaner. Only concern would be if you have stock cats. From what I have seen, meth can be pretty rough on the catalytic converters. So that would be the only downside I could think of if you do have cats still on your car.
Meth will cool IAT's and increase the octane rating allowing for more spark advance. Most people get into meth when they want to run more ethanol and need more fueling, or they are simply at the power level that demands more fueling. I am at 650 wheel with somewhat similar mods as you and no meth. I believe meth would be good for another 30-40 at your power level but more importantly it would keep consistent IAT's so you would not be having a power loss after back to back pulls. Not to mention, it will burn cleaner. Only concern would be if you have stock cats. From what I have seen, meth can be pretty rough on the catalytic converters. So that would be the only downside I could think of if you do have cats still on your car.
Spray 93 on a 1600*F frying pan and try to compress it, it won't wait for a spark. The 50/50 drops that 1600*F to something reasonable, 1200 or 800*F or so perhaps. The initial temp of air off a blower is often 300*F- no where close to the exhaust gas temp or combustion temperatures present which could be 2000*F, and as the cyclic nature of an engine comes around for another combustion event those pre-heated components play hell with the poor gasoline quality that is 93.
01-21-2019, 11:31 PM
#7
Melting Slicks
Its easy to point and say "WRONG"- I get this constantly because true mechanical knowledge is so rare & everybody likes to parrot what they hear without thinking.
If you actually think something is wrong, post why it is wrong. Otherwise it is a useless, non informative, pointless post.
For methanol/water injection, there are at least 10 sites I've seen over the years including WW2 data where water injection was used on aircraft, that present experimental data which supplements my short-***-post.
I know this because I've seen this "WRONG" type of behavior a hundred times in the last 10 years regarding the same subjects over and over and done the research 10 years ago on this subject.
If there was any truth to what you say- "that its wrong" I am sure you can easily find some evidence, since meth injection is so common, surely there would be at least one reputable information on the entire website you could have posted as proof? Instead of just "WRONG".
but there isn't.
If you actually think something is wrong, post why it is wrong. Otherwise it is a useless, non informative, pointless post.
For methanol/water injection, there are at least 10 sites I've seen over the years including WW2 data where water injection was used on aircraft, that present experimental data which supplements my short-***-post.
I know this because I've seen this "WRONG" type of behavior a hundred times in the last 10 years regarding the same subjects over and over and done the research 10 years ago on this subject.
If there was any truth to what you say- "that its wrong" I am sure you can easily find some evidence, since meth injection is so common, surely there would be at least one reputable information on the entire website you could have posted as proof? Instead of just "WRONG".
but there isn't.
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billviverette (01-25-2019)
01-22-2019, 09:27 AM
#8
Well the water component of methanol injection will reduce power given the same boost level. Methanol itself is a high octane fuel that will also reduce power, the same way any racing fuel will.
So to answer your question... Less. Always less. Its like pissing on a fire. it slows down the reaction.
In turn this will allow you to run more boost pressure, which might make more power, depending on the flow of the compressor.
So the REAL question you should be asking is, How much more airflow will my compressor support before it runs out of breath? And then how much methanol will it take given my engine configuration to keep it from exploding violently.
So to answer your question... Less. Always less. Its like pissing on a fire. it slows down the reaction.
In turn this will allow you to run more boost pressure, which might make more power, depending on the flow of the compressor.
So the REAL question you should be asking is, How much more airflow will my compressor support before it runs out of breath? And then how much methanol will it take given my engine configuration to keep it from exploding violently.
01-22-2019, 09:34 AM
#9
Racer
01-22-2019, 11:12 AM
#10
Its easy to point and say "WRONG"- I get this constantly because true mechanical knowledge is so rare & everybody likes to parrot what they hear without thinking.
If you actually think something is wrong, post why it is wrong. Otherwise it is a useless, non informative, pointless post.
For methanol/water injection, there are at least 10 sites I've seen over the years including WW2 data where water injection was used on aircraft, that present experimental data which supplements my short-***-post.
I know this because I've seen this "WRONG" type of behavior a hundred times in the last 10 years regarding the same subjects over and over and done the research 10 years ago on this subject.
If there was any truth to what you say- "that its wrong" I am sure you can easily find some evidence, since meth injection is so common, surely there would be at least one reputable information on the entire website you could have posted as proof? Instead of just "WRONG".
but there isn't.
If you actually think something is wrong, post why it is wrong. Otherwise it is a useless, non informative, pointless post.
For methanol/water injection, there are at least 10 sites I've seen over the years including WW2 data where water injection was used on aircraft, that present experimental data which supplements my short-***-post.
I know this because I've seen this "WRONG" type of behavior a hundred times in the last 10 years regarding the same subjects over and over and done the research 10 years ago on this subject.
If there was any truth to what you say- "that its wrong" I am sure you can easily find some evidence, since meth injection is so common, surely there would be at least one reputable information on the entire website you could have posted as proof? Instead of just "WRONG".
but there isn't.
However in this case your "short-***-post" as you say, was incorrect in so many ways I would have had to write a thesis to debunk all of your claims.
For example you say in answer to the OP's question about power gains with W/M injection "Less. Always less. Its like pissing on a fire. it slows down the reaction."
This answer in and of itself demonstrates either a fundamental misunderstanding of why W/M injection is used in the first place or it’s a weak attempt to troll us here on the forum. I think it’s the latter because based on your writing you are way to intelligent for it to be the former.
One of the primary purposes of W/M injection IS to "**** on the fire" (using your analogy here) to control the burn.
The OP is already running additional boost in his LT4. Which means he is running near or above the threshold of pre-ignition. Therefore he is encountering knock retard, his tuner has dialed back timing in an effort to eliminate it, or they have to run serious octane booster in an effort to avoid pre-ignition (uncontrolled burn). The LT4 as packaged in the early C7 Z06's is marginal in its ability to sustain power and timing in high ambient temps or when running additional boost.
So you see, what makes your statement incorrect is the fact that you didn’t apply your years of knowledge and learning to the OP's situation.
This is the first thing you should have been taught wherever and whenever you learned your "true mechanical knowledge".
Define the exact problem/equation before you provide an answer.
In an LT4 (like the OP's) that is running additional boost W/M injection reduces the hot spots in the combustion chamber which staves off pre-ignition. W/M injection also increases the density of the intake charge by reducing intake charge temperature. This will retain timing or allow the tuner to run more aggressive timing which in turn will give the OP more power than he has now.
Here is an article that may help folks begin to understand W/M injection.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno...tion-turbo-ls/
Last edited by dar02081961; 01-22-2019 at 02:47 PM.
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01-22-2019, 04:07 PM
#11
Melting Slicks
Lets look around the internet at people who use the systems regularly. Articles and For sale ads are trying to sell you something, will often simply repeat what they read on the company website or for sale ads.
Do not trust those ads. Instead, read what the users of such systems have to say
https://www.miataturbo.net/methanol-...3/#post1149921
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....43&postcount=3
evaporating in the intake tract causes a loss in power, because as a gas it takes up space
https://www.svtperformance.com/threa...#post-13194241
the info is even 'hidden' in the faq
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/faq
leaning on 100% meth is risky
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....5&postcount=26
IAT reading while on methanol are bogus
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....8&postcount=44
bogus iat reading
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post18973099
meth isnt for IAT cooling
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post18973619
----------
need to add boost to take advantage of aux injection
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...28&postcount=7
------
cliffs...
-meth/water injection doesn't cool the intake air temperature as much as parrots and for sale ads would have you believe
-100% meth is dangerous and foolish to consider in a majority of applications and should not be considered here because of its invisible flammability
-100% meth is also dangerous because it replaces too much fuel with an aux system that relies on an external pump with a service interval
-water component of injection will reduce power because it absorbs energy and has a high heat capacity
-extra boost pressure is the ideal way to compensate and take advantage of any water/methanol injection system
Do not trust those ads. Instead, read what the users of such systems have to say
https://www.miataturbo.net/methanol-...3/#post1149921
The hype about "chemical intercooling" is BS. To really cool your intake air, you need a heat exchanger.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....43&postcount=3
Quoting this post just for emphasis. Unless you have extremely high IATs, pure water will likely cause a loss in power.
evaporating in the intake tract causes a loss in power, because as a gas it takes up space
https://www.svtperformance.com/threa...#post-13194241
you are introducing methanol particles and water which takes away oxygen from the combustion cycle, without any additional tuning you may actually lose some power since you are losing some of the energy of proper combustion.
the info is even 'hidden' in the faq
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/faq
Yes, By increasing the boost pressure you should be able to increase the horsepower.
leaning on 100% meth is risky
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....5&postcount=26
Except if there is any problem whatsoever when running 100% meth. Reduced flow, dodgy pump, whatever. You will destroy your engine. IMO there is less of a cushion when you are replacing lots of your normal fuel, with methanol.
IAT reading while on methanol are bogus
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....8&postcount=44
I would not go by what the IAT reads. most of the time, these big IAT drops are happening because the mist/droplets are touching the IAT sensor. Thus skewing the reading.
bogus iat reading
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post18973099
You really don't. Just let it do it's thing. You'll know by the change in your AFRs.
meth isnt for IAT cooling
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post18973619
Cooling the air charge is a slight side benefit IMO. You aren't cooling the charge air by much as a whole. The major benefits are in the CC. I'd think an EGT probe would be the best way to measure Aux inj. temp drops.
The charge temps aren’t largely effected by aux inj. Compare the amount of fluid injected to the amount of air ingested per minute. It’s easy to see that the aux inj fluid can’t effect the air temps much as a whole.
This is easily seen by the "too good to be true" IAT temps some of these guys report. The temp drops reported aren't physically possible. If the reported IAT's were accurate, then none of us would need intercoolers. Yet an intercooler will make more power than aux inj alone every time.
The small amount of extra charge cooling does not need to be compensated for IMO. The actual change in the overall charge temp is tiny. Figure a 6.0 at 6000 rpm and 85% VE flows roughly 15,300 liters of air per minute. So 242,510 gallons per hour. Compare that to the typical 12-15 gph worth of Aux INJ. nozzle.(.002%) It’s like pissing into a hurricane and expecting a big temperature shift.
need to add boost to take advantage of aux injection
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...28&postcount=7
but you need to be able to increase boost enough to take advantage of this characteristic. If you have a limited max boost pressure that is below waters maximum allowable boost curve, you will see no significant benefit to adding alcohol to the mix.
cliffs...
-meth/water injection doesn't cool the intake air temperature as much as parrots and for sale ads would have you believe
-100% meth is dangerous and foolish to consider in a majority of applications and should not be considered here because of its invisible flammability
-100% meth is also dangerous because it replaces too much fuel with an aux system that relies on an external pump with a service interval
-water component of injection will reduce power because it absorbs energy and has a high heat capacity
-extra boost pressure is the ideal way to compensate and take advantage of any water/methanol injection system
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billviverette (01-25-2019)
01-22-2019, 06:33 PM
#12
Lets look around the internet at people who use the systems regularly. Articles and For sale ads are trying to sell you something, will often simply repeat what they read on the company website or for sale ads.
Do not trust those ads. Instead, read what the users of such systems have to say
https://www.miataturbo.net/methanol-...3/#post1149921
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19645943&postcount=3
evaporating in the intake tract causes a loss in power, because as a gas it takes up space
https://www.svtperformance.com/threa...#post-13194241
the info is even 'hidden' in the faq
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/faq
leaning on 100% meth is risky
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14958275&postcount=26
IAT reading while on methanol are bogus
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15184588&postcount=44
bogus iat reading
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post18973099
meth isnt for IAT cooling
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post18973619
----------
need to add boost to take advantage of aux injection
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14206728&postcount=7
------
cliffs...
-meth/water injection doesn't cool the intake air temperature as much as parrots and for sale ads would have you believe
-100% meth is dangerous and foolish to consider in a majority of applications and should not be considered here because of its invisible flammability
-100% meth is also dangerous because it replaces too much fuel with an aux system that relies on an external pump with a service interval
-water component of injection will reduce power because it absorbs energy and has a high heat capacity
-extra boost pressure is the ideal way to compensate and take advantage of any water/methanol injection system
Do not trust those ads. Instead, read what the users of such systems have to say
https://www.miataturbo.net/methanol-...3/#post1149921
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19645943&postcount=3
evaporating in the intake tract causes a loss in power, because as a gas it takes up space
https://www.svtperformance.com/threa...#post-13194241
the info is even 'hidden' in the faq
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/faq
leaning on 100% meth is risky
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14958275&postcount=26
IAT reading while on methanol are bogus
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15184588&postcount=44
bogus iat reading
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post18973099
meth isnt for IAT cooling
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post18973619
----------
need to add boost to take advantage of aux injection
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14206728&postcount=7
------
cliffs...
-meth/water injection doesn't cool the intake air temperature as much as parrots and for sale ads would have you believe
-100% meth is dangerous and foolish to consider in a majority of applications and should not be considered here because of its invisible flammability
-100% meth is also dangerous because it replaces too much fuel with an aux system that relies on an external pump with a service interval
-water component of injection will reduce power because it absorbs energy and has a high heat capacity
-extra boost pressure is the ideal way to compensate and take advantage of any water/methanol injection system
Its widely known that 50/50 or slightly less Meth with water is the best mixture for safety and cooling.
You really should do more research and digest what you are reading.
W/M injection has shown benefits on normally aspirated engines as well.
Of course the gains arent as much as on boosted engines for the obvious reason as the intake charge isn't super-heated from a compressor.
Here is the problem with you and your information.
First you say W/M injection slows down the reaction "like pissing on a fire" then you cited a source above that states (paraphrasing here) that W/M injection doesn't do enough to appreciably cool the intake charge enough to matter. So which is it?... you cant have it both ways.
This is exactly why I didn't explain further in my first post.
And again why I say you are trolling.
Because you know good and darn well the W/M injection nozzle atomizes the injection into a very fine mist that is quickly and readily absorbed by the intake charge. This process reduces intake charge temps simply because it takes heat energy to change the W/M injection into Vapor thus cooling the intake charge.
Anyone telling you or writing that W/M injection doesn't cool intake charge temps is full of it or doesn't know what they are talking about.
And blaming the information that doesn't support your narrative on false advertising so vendors can make sales is just plain silly.
The simple process of evaporation is known to cool. It is an accepted fact that evaporative cooling works and isnt debated by anyone but you as far as I know.
Here is the principle.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-with-liquids/
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...nol-injection/
Here is the principle and theory applied in the real world on a normally aspirated engine.
http://www.thelsxdr.com/snow-methano...010-camaro-ss/
To say the OP will end up with less power with W/M injection and a tune is just plain wrong.
Last edited by dar02081961; 01-22-2019 at 06:34 PM.
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Yourconfused (02-22-2021)
01-23-2019, 09:45 AM
#13
Melting Slicks
No where in this thread does anyone mention using 100% Meth but you.
Its widely known that 50/50 or slightly less Meth with water is the best mixture for safety and cooling.
You really should do more research and digest what you are reading.
W/M injection has shown benefits on normally aspirated engines as well.
Of course the gains arent as much as on boosted engines for the obvious reason as the intake charge isn't super-heated from a compressor.
Here is the problem with you and your information.
First you say W/M injection slows down the reaction "like pissing on a fire" then you cited a source above that states (paraphrasing here) that W/M injection doesn't do enough to appreciably cool the intake charge enough to matter. So which is it?... you cant have it both ways.
This is exactly why I didn't explain further in my first post.
And again why I say you are trolling.
Because you know good and darn well the W/M injection nozzle atomizes the injection into a very fine mist that is quickly and readily absorbed by the intake charge. This process reduces intake charge temps simply because it takes heat energy to change the W/M injection into Vapor thus cooling the intake charge.
Anyone telling you or writing that W/M injection doesn't cool intake charge temps is full of it or doesn't know what they are talking about.
And blaming the information that doesn't support your narrative on false advertising so vendors can make sales is just plain silly.
The simple process of evaporation is known to cool. It is an accepted fact that evaporative cooling works and isnt debated by anyone but you as far as I know.
Here is the principle.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-with-liquids/
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...nol-injection/
Here is the principle and theory applied in the real world on a normally aspirated engine.
http://www.thelsxdr.com/snow-methano...010-camaro-ss/
To say the OP will end up with less power with W/M injection and a tune is just plain wrong.
Its widely known that 50/50 or slightly less Meth with water is the best mixture for safety and cooling.
You really should do more research and digest what you are reading.
W/M injection has shown benefits on normally aspirated engines as well.
Of course the gains arent as much as on boosted engines for the obvious reason as the intake charge isn't super-heated from a compressor.
Here is the problem with you and your information.
First you say W/M injection slows down the reaction "like pissing on a fire" then you cited a source above that states (paraphrasing here) that W/M injection doesn't do enough to appreciably cool the intake charge enough to matter. So which is it?... you cant have it both ways.
This is exactly why I didn't explain further in my first post.
And again why I say you are trolling.
Because you know good and darn well the W/M injection nozzle atomizes the injection into a very fine mist that is quickly and readily absorbed by the intake charge. This process reduces intake charge temps simply because it takes heat energy to change the W/M injection into Vapor thus cooling the intake charge.
Anyone telling you or writing that W/M injection doesn't cool intake charge temps is full of it or doesn't know what they are talking about.
And blaming the information that doesn't support your narrative on false advertising so vendors can make sales is just plain silly.
The simple process of evaporation is known to cool. It is an accepted fact that evaporative cooling works and isnt debated by anyone but you as far as I know.
Here is the principle.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-with-liquids/
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...nol-injection/
Here is the principle and theory applied in the real world on a normally aspirated engine.
http://www.thelsxdr.com/snow-methano...010-camaro-ss/
To say the OP will end up with less power with W/M injection and a tune is just plain wrong.
a. my quotes about 100% meth being flammable and dangerous is true and don't need any supplementary information
b. my quotes about 100% meth being more dangerous because it is 100% a fuel source is also true and doesn't need any supplementary information
c. 'cooling the reaction of combustion' in that context clearly means that water should phase changes in the combustion chamber, not the intake pathways (exactly as the information presented shows)
d. if the water or methanol evaporates before it passes the intake valve it takes up the same amount of space that any gas would.
I've installed and tuned around 20 methanol systems. I run every car I own on 100% distilled water am well aware of how to use it. The point of injecting it AT the intake or AT the intake valve (and not, say, way before hand) is so that it will pass the intake valve in a liquid state. the instructions that come with methanol systems clearly detail that you place the nozzle near the throttle body- not a mile beforehand upstream, which would give it time to evaporate. Ex. Turbocharger users seeking air density improvements for their tapped out (read: compressors out of breath) will inject PRE-TURBO to get this effect because the evaporative cooling nets a greater return to air density than their tapped-out turbos would have without it.
Next I've got several degrees in the field, biological, bioengineering, chemistry, mathematics, and from what basic knowledge one might posses about water and methanol (if you had any sense in this area) is that their respective cooling property is based on something called heat capacity- that is, when a liquid changes from a liquid to a gas state. Which is exactly what we are trying to avoid until it passes the intake valve (and the valve closes completely) due to the amount of sheer volume gas state molecules command.
lrn2read I guess
Oh one more thing. Stop posting useless online articles from non-cited sources. Every hotrod magazine article and methanol manufacturer will hype the iat cooling benefits (even if its just 1% or 10% effective to this end and not the point of the system) because it sounds good on paper and advertise that **** like crazy. Of course they are all advertisements for the systems they want it to sound good. Stop using that garbage and try using either real-world results from actual users (as I have above) or actual scientific cited sources which if I was home I would provide since this situation occurs on a regular basis with parrots such as yourself. lol quoting enginebuildermag a nd scientificamerican. I would get kicked in the nuts by my advisor if I tried that **** in a PhD paper.
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 01-23-2019 at 09:52 AM.
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billviverette (01-25-2019)
01-23-2019, 10:44 AM
#14
Instructor
You can't just spray 50/50 and expect more power. The water removes energy. Power will always drop unless something else is also changed.
The benefit of 50/50 has very little to do with IAT. If the methanol evaporates in the intake tract, that means it turns to gas, and just like every other gas i.e. water vapor, it takes far more more space than it does when it was a liquid. Which means now you have less oxygen going into the cylinders, which also means less power. Therefore, you don't want the meth/water to evaporate before it enters the cylinder. Which means its heat capacity isn't realized i.e. there is no benefit to IAT cooling at all.
To put it another way. If you try to get an IAT benefit by injecting 50/50 early, it will displace air and reduce power even as the intake air temp drops.
Also, engines will make the most power with the largest mass of hot-as-possible air they can ingest. Hot air = more energy = more power.
I know it all sounds crazy but truth is stranger than fiction. Without raising the boost, there is very little benefit to 50/50 on top of what the op has.
Pushing timing is a bad idea to seek extra power from an FI engine. Let the boost do the work, don't try to add a bunch of timing to generate an unstable peak pressure just after TDC event. Yes it can add 20-40 horses on the dyno pulls but on the street and track those extra horses turn to pressure related accidents, component failures, all for barely any improvement.
The benefit of 50/50 has very little to do with IAT. If the methanol evaporates in the intake tract, that means it turns to gas, and just like every other gas i.e. water vapor, it takes far more more space than it does when it was a liquid. Which means now you have less oxygen going into the cylinders, which also means less power. Therefore, you don't want the meth/water to evaporate before it enters the cylinder. Which means its heat capacity isn't realized i.e. there is no benefit to IAT cooling at all.
To put it another way. If you try to get an IAT benefit by injecting 50/50 early, it will displace air and reduce power even as the intake air temp drops.
Also, engines will make the most power with the largest mass of hot-as-possible air they can ingest. Hot air = more energy = more power.
I know it all sounds crazy but truth is stranger than fiction. Without raising the boost, there is very little benefit to 50/50 on top of what the op has.
Pushing timing is a bad idea to seek extra power from an FI engine. Let the boost do the work, don't try to add a bunch of timing to generate an unstable peak pressure just after TDC event. Yes it can add 20-40 horses on the dyno pulls but on the street and track those extra horses turn to pressure related accidents, component failures, all for barely any improvement.
Last edited by TXvert; 01-23-2019 at 11:01 AM.
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01-23-2019, 11:39 AM
#15
Melting Slicks
Hot air contains more energy than cold air. A combustion engine is thermally inefficient; it throws away a part of the heat it creates. The more heat you can trap, i.e. insulate, the better the efficiency of the engine.
In a pinch I found this bankspower article, I know I said we shouldn't use these but its a start because you sound like you are in a rush.
https://www.bankspower.com/tech_arti...-equals-power/
Now comes the really interesting part of this article that raises all the questions. Twenty years ago, the late, great racing mechanic and inventor Henry “Smokey” Yunick left the automotive engineers shaking their heads when he invented and patented his hot vapor engine. Based on the familiar four-cycle piston engine concept, instead of cooling the intake air to improve efficiency, he used coolant heat and exhaust waste heat to significantly warm the intake air. The purpose was to fully vaporize the fuel and to make the intake air expand in the intake system to generate positive pressure, like a supercharger. A small turbocharger was used as a “mixer” and as a check valve to prevent the expanding intake air from backflowing out of the intake system. With the heated, pressurized, homogenous mixture, the engine ran at air/fuel ratios considered impossibly lean, such as 22:1, on pump gasoline. The hot vapor engine made incredible power and was highly efficient, responsive, surprisingly emissions clean, and delivered fuel economy of 45-50 MPG in a compact car, and it did it all without computers, smog pumps or catalytic converters. Although initially denounced by the automotive world as a hoax, several prominent SAE engineers later published papers validating Smokey’s theories and design. It was no hoax to Smokey. He considered it his greatest achievement. However, the automotive giants had their own designs for increasing fuel economy and controlling emissions, and Smokey’s simple and cost-efficient engine package was ignored. Today, Smokey’s designs are buried somewhere in the U.S. Patent Office (www.uspto.gov, patent numbers: 4,503,833; 4,592,329; 4,637,365; 4,862,859)
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billviverette (01-25-2019)
01-23-2019, 12:17 PM
#16
Instructor
Sorry dude but I get this all the time from novices. Take some courses in mechanical engineering and learn a thing or two about combustion engines.
Hot air contains more energy than cold air. A combustion engine is thermally inefficient; it throws away a part of the heat it creates. The more heat you can trap, i.e. insulate, the better the efficiency of the engine.
In a pinch I found this bankspower article, I know I said we shouldn't use these but its a start because you sound like you are in a rush.
https://www.bankspower.com/tech_arti...-equals-power/
Hot air contains more energy than cold air. A combustion engine is thermally inefficient; it throws away a part of the heat it creates. The more heat you can trap, i.e. insulate, the better the efficiency of the engine.
In a pinch I found this bankspower article, I know I said we shouldn't use these but its a start because you sound like you are in a rush.
https://www.bankspower.com/tech_arti...-equals-power/
To the OP, you can go with Kingtal0n's opinion, or what seems to be everybody else. Check other commenters previous posts and you should be able to easily tell whom is correct. Or just call a reputable shop, there are plenty of great LS shops. Best of luck.
01-23-2019, 12:28 PM
#17
Melting Slicks
Horsepower output is largely dependent on the massflow of an engine.
if we are moving 50lb/min through engine A
And we are moving 50lb/min through engine B
The massflow through both engines is identical, so power should be identical as well. However, if engine A has an inlet temperature which is significantly hotter, it will make more power because hotter air contains more internal energy. As long as the additional heat doesn't negatively impact the performance of the fuel. This is a fuel issue; the reason we want cold air going into the motor is because the FUEL will not tolerate a hotter air. I.e. We see a lot of high boost, non intercooled E85 cars because even if the turbo puts out really-hot-air the fuel doesn't care. Same thing with the engine, if the parts are up to the challenge or not (high temp) will change whether or not we care about the high temperature going in.
There are many contradictions throughout the world of tuning similar to this. Another one is that higher octane fuels contain less energy. 87 octane will yield more power than 93 octane, all else equal. 87 octane contains more "BTU" of energy in it's chemical bonds and so is capable of doing more work.
So when somebody, say, switches from 93 to C16 "leaded aviation fuel" which is much higher octane, the engine output drops if the motor wasn't setup for the change.
Using higer octain is a great buffer against detonation. The key is using the right octain. You have to keep in mind while the key is not to under octain the motor you also need to avoid over doing it. If you use to high of an octain fuel the fuel is heavier and it burns slower there for if the car does not make the power and compression to burn it, you will actually lose power.
In your case running C16 is a great waste of money that will result in a loss of power along with destroyed O2 sensors.
Lots of good posts here by yours truly
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...l#post19850463
-too high of octane fuel (you didnt use 116 did you...)
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01-23-2019, 12:32 PM
#18
Melting Slicks
I understand per unit of volume hot air contains more energy than cold air, but you can get more molecules of cold air than hot air per unit volume. More cold dense air means more fuel can be added. I stand by my previous post. We'll have to agree to disagree.
To the OP, you can go with Kingtal0n's opinion, or what seems to be everybody else. Check other commenters previous posts and you should be able to easily tell whom is correct. Or just call a reputable shop, there are plenty of great LS shops. Best of luck.
To the OP, you can go with Kingtal0n's opinion, or what seems to be everybody else. Check other commenters previous posts and you should be able to easily tell whom is correct. Or just call a reputable shop, there are plenty of great LS shops. Best of luck.
Mass = number of molecules. So if the number of molecules per unit time is the same for both examples cold/hot, thus the mass flow through the engine is the same.
That means temperature is irrelevant of density in this instance, since I am specifying that the mass needs to be identical.
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billviverette (01-25-2019)
01-23-2019, 12:35 PM
#19
Instructor
OP, there are two opinions in this thread and they are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Pick wisely. Cheers.
01-23-2019, 12:37 PM
#20
Melting Slicks
Actually its more like 100 opinions vs 1
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....0&postcount=27
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...l#post17542483
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...l#post17542512
-------
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....7&postcount=61
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....1&postcount=21
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....8&postcount=33
----------------
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post16473165
response
---------------
bottom lines:
-water puts out fires
-methanol is a high octane fuel (a 'race' gas) e.g. As octane rating of a fuel goes up (ex. 87 -> 93) energy content of that fuel goes DOWN
-mixtures over 51% methanol will BURN and are NOT recommended for street cars
-water is better at cooling that methanol, because methanol BURNS and ADDS HEAT to the reaction of combustion
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....0&postcount=27
All those saying that pure meth is the only way to go are EXTREMELY foolish.
Pure meth is perfect for a forged piston setup with safe ring gaps.
Water cools far more than meth could ever hope to, and guys on stock cast pistons and stock ring gaps would benefit a great deal from using water to keep combustion temps down. Spraying pure meth might keep detonation at bay, but its not going to help keep those rings from butting together or a ring land from breaking. Water WILL.
Pure meth won't corrode your aluminum or your silicone couplers anytime soon. You would need to run about 50 gallons of pure meth through there before you will be able to even see any signs of use.
Pure meth is perfect for a forged piston setup with safe ring gaps.
Water cools far more than meth could ever hope to, and guys on stock cast pistons and stock ring gaps would benefit a great deal from using water to keep combustion temps down. Spraying pure meth might keep detonation at bay, but its not going to help keep those rings from butting together or a ring land from breaking. Water WILL.
Pure meth won't corrode your aluminum or your silicone couplers anytime soon. You would need to run about 50 gallons of pure meth through there before you will be able to even see any signs of use.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...l#post17542483
Now if we turn the smoothing on and zoom in on the curves a bit more, you can still see the bump down low, but I'm actually losing a few HP up top with the meth.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...l#post17542512
So all that water is doing is to help put out the flame so to speak.
We messed with water and meth percentages on my boosted car on the dyno and my car held cooler IATs with the 50:50 water meth mix than straight meth.
Meth will NOT give you more power. It allows you to run more timing and stay away from detonation. As the OP just proved, even adding the timing it's not a significant amount of power increase. It doesn't matter how much meth you are spraying. You won't add more power by spraying more meth. More meth will not always give you the better setup over a meth water mix.
. Biggest reason meth is good for boost is you can up the boost.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....7&postcount=61
What I found at the end of the day was that my car went the fastest mph it's ever been at the boost level I was running it at with a mixture of 85% M1 methanol and 15% water ....
...the highest MPH came when using a little bit of water in there with it.
...the highest MPH came when using a little bit of water in there with it.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....1&postcount=21
...we had problems with the water putting the flame out back at the old shop on different builds....
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....8&postcount=33
So I took my car back to the original dyno where i put down 452/425 max (2.8 pulley and volant intake) and was only able to best 423/436 (2.6 pulley and 50/50 meth)
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post16473165
Originally Posted by ZNix View Post
Straight methanol is the best at cooling.
Straight methanol is the best at cooling.
No, it's not. It evaporates quicker, so yes, it will give you a lower reading at the IAT sensor, but once it hits the combustion chamber and ignites, it adds to the overall heat in the chamber. Water on the other hand, cools as it evaporates, which is slower at ambient temps, but once it hits the chamber, pulls out considerably more heat, and since it doesn't ignite, it doesn't add anymore heat back into the piston/chamber like methanol does.
bottom lines:
-water puts out fires
-methanol is a high octane fuel (a 'race' gas) e.g. As octane rating of a fuel goes up (ex. 87 -> 93) energy content of that fuel goes DOWN
-mixtures over 51% methanol will BURN and are NOT recommended for street cars
-water is better at cooling that methanol, because methanol BURNS and ADDS HEAT to the reaction of combustion
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