rjacobs

I am contemplating 2 different directions to go with my new 19 Z06:
swapping to a maggie 2300(leaving everything else stock for now, but a better base to build on as funds become available later)

OR

Lower pulley(10 or 15%), 2" ARH headers, Halltech CAI

Either option will probably get a flex fuel sensor and option 2 might get methanol... Obviously a tune would happen with either option.


So I am looking at the fuel system and it seems a lot of the conventional wisdom for 15-18 cars goes out the window with the 19 cars due to not needing to touch the low side.

Has anybody explored the capabilities of the 19 fuel system with the ZR1 in tank pump?

Im not finding a ton of info on the true capabilities of the 19 fuel system.

C5-VERT

The low side should keep up with the 2300 and ethanol (although it must deliver approximately 30% more to make the same power). I would personally add a fuel pressure gauge (always like to back up the factory) but when tuning just watch the fuel pressure (low and high). The low shouldn't fall off at all, it should rise 1psi per pound of boost. These days tuners like to set base pressure a little higher (but you won't have that option without a custom low side). My regulator with vacuum/boost line pulled (0 bar) set at 65psi. From there it goes up 1 psi per pound of boost.

Shoot for 11.9 on ethanol (safe, little rich) or 12.1 or so on 93. Tuners like their own A/F this is just my feedback. Chris Crawford is an excellent resource and remote tuner.

rjacobs

do you have a 19? Your profile says you have a 2017...

The two are apples and oranges when comparing the fuel system since the in tank pump is completely different in not only its capacity but how the ECU operates it.

ssmith512

I'm all ears as I have a '19Z as well and will be turning up the wick soon, but I dont want to touch the fuel system with my mods. So very interested to hear how far the '19Z stock fuel system can go safely.

DRLC5

I thought the 2019 ZO6 had an upgraded fuel pump/ system? Can someone confirm.

ssmith512

The '19Z's have the ZR1 in-tank pump and as I understand it, a completely different pump control module (relative to the '15-'18 Z's).

rjacobs

Only the in tank pump is different.

Supposedly 20% more capacity and operates differently.

BUT the rest of the fuel system(HPFP and injectors) is the same.

So what does that larger in tank pump get us? Thats the question.

Mikec7z

Your system will carry the car fine. The low side fuel pump was the weak link in the 18-15 z06. 19 has the better pump.

Your tuner will/should know how to make sure the 19 fuel pump is on full capacity at wot. Make sure he knows the 19 pump controller does things differently, he cant just copy and past a tune from an 18 and hope for the best, the pumps run in different ways.

Also, should you happen to run out of fuel (but you wont) but lets say you did... all your tuner needs to do is put a temporary RPM governor on your car and tune up to the RPM where it runs out of fuel.... fix your car using the steps below, and then take it back to him so he can finish tuning it.

If you do run out of fuel, 2 ways to solve are to get rid of your main cats (get norcal catless pipes instead, and keep the stock x pipe cats)... then tell your tuner to shut off COT in the tune (less fuel will be requested then, and your car will run better AFR at WOT)

If you already have your main cats removed, then turn off COT from step 1.

(i would recommend norcal pipes instead of LT headers.)

If you do all of that, and you are still out of fuel, then you need to ask do you need the last few RPM, or do you think you will continue to upgrade? (rpm are what kill engines anyway, and you will be making more power than a stock vehicle, but at lower rpm... mathematical certainty since you are consuming more fuel and at perfect AFR.

If you want to keep upgrading your car more later, then what you need is a port injection fuel system (crawford racing sells this and Chris Crawford is the man, very smart)

The 19 in tank pump can then take you much further, as the fuel is able to go through the port injection instead of ONLY the direct injectors. (direct injectors are a bad bottleneck for flow) Car will pick up another 100hp easy once fuel can go through the easier flow path of port injection. You will have to add port injection bugs or spacer plates to your supercharger, and the injectors and fuel lines and rails of course.

You have a long way to go before you need another pump, and you will need port injection to eliminate the bottleneck at the DI injectors, long before you need another pump. Dont waste a dollar touching the high side DI system, leave it alone, and go to port injection IF and WHEN you manage to run out of fuel. GM learned this on the zr1, otherwise they would have taken a different path than they did.

AZGASSER

What is your endpoint/goal, both in HP and $$$. Do you really want to push the 2300? I have changed the upper and lower on the 2300 and really spin it. I am at 18+# of boost with the 23% lower and 80mm upper. With the stock injectors we ran out of fuel not much of E50 so keep that in mind. Your tuner will be able to dial that in. I have a 16 and a low side kit but the limit in my case was the stock injectors. Direct and port really allows you to push it but that gets expensive ($5000+) with new injectors/plates/controllers. Crawfords complete package does address the lowside with a duel intake pump and is applicable for the 2019(according to their website) Again set your goals and budget first then find a reputable shop to do the work.

rjacobs

750-800 whp/wtq is my goal...for now.

I understand initially just bolting on the 2300 and tuning it should gain 75-100whp. I would likely do a lower ATI pulley at the same time, probably 10% for better belt wrap. Also would probably do the Norcal cat delete pipes and DSX flex fuel setup. That would probably put me in the 650-700whp range. Then go from there. For me, as a 99% street car, that power is likely to be plenty, but running around Dallas, even 700-750whp will get you beat, but I refuse to drive full time on drag radials so putting the power down really becomes an issue, so im realistic.

AZGASSER

I hear ya about power on the street. Mine is 99% street driven and use Toyos to keep it hooked. When we did the initial tuning with a 70mm upper pulley we hit 22# boost and had loads of belt slip over 4000rpms. Dropped to the 80mm and it worked great. CPR is working on a new tensioner for the smaller pulley and feels that 950hp is possible with that. My absolutes with my build was to keep the factory hood and no cutting of the back cowl to fit any SC. The money to add a second set of injectors or even larger ones for direct injection was not in my budget at this time.

NicD

Based on some testing we just did on the ZR1 don't count on the upgraded in-tank pump to do much for you. While it goes further it's not by much and at that point you are still out of high side pump and running out of the injection timing window anyways. With flex fuel it's still going to need a low side system.

Mikec7z

so help me understand your point nicD.... you upgraded a zr1, and since you managed to get the lt5 blower to run that fuel system dry...

you dont think the zr1 in tank fuel pump can carry a 2300 or a pulley'd/ported 1.7, when there are already guys running 2300's on the 18 and prior pump no problem?

Sorry, I don't get why you would tell someone to upgrade their fuel system now, instead of approach it the way i described above, to see if they have a problem first, before they invest all the money.

Frankly, on the 19 in tank pumps, the smoothest solution is going to be the Fore in tank double pumps that both run on the stock controller and utilize 19 pump logic instead of 18 and prior... and that fore twin pump system is not out yet for the 19's as of last week.

It is something worth waiting for.

I factored that into the advice I gave the OP as well, he can make progress in the meantime on his car, and then upgrade fuel system later if it proves to be shy. But again, i see no logical reason why it would be. And the first upgrade will need to be port injection, as adding a pump to the DI injectors is just a bottleneck. So, realistically speaking, another in tank pump is over 3 steps away in his discovery/upgrade process.

Rdubfalco

How about running the FIC 30% increase DI Injectors? Do those, CPR Lowside, 32% fuel lobe cam with a 2.3L Maggie allow for full E85? If so, what power could you reasonably expect and can you prevent heat soak? I have the CPR expansion tank.

Mikec7z

port injection and upgraded low side flow much much more fuel, and eliminate the bottleneck.

The advice i gave the OP is sound advice, which will leave him able to flow more and more fuel by stacking on top of that foundation.

his first and probably last upgrade will need to be port injection. Maybe a low side pump. That would carry him past 1200hp if he did those 2 things, and cost less money in the long run.

Messing with the high side is a waste of time. Port injection and be done with it.

Rdubfalco

Very good points. I think the highside injectors are like 3K alone, at that price I feel you're close to cost of covering port injection cost.

Last thought though; if you install port injection, are you eliminatiing DI or are you augmenting it?

Mikec7z

you are adding to the DI, not replacing it.

Its better for not just costs, but also daily driving. The whole point of DI is to atomize the fuel as it enters the chamber.

The only way to atomize fuel is to have tiny laser cut holes on the injector tips.

The only way to increase flow is to add more holes, or add to the diameter of those holes. Either way you go, you just lost atomization properties at lower power levels. Its a long story and i dont care to try to explain it right now, but it is mathematical certainty.

Keeping the stock DI injectors is a good thing. Keeping the stock fuel lobe is also a good thing, less wear on the HP fuel pump.... which will be out of warranty after such a foolish upgrade as increasing fuel lobe size on the cam.

So the port injection supplements the STOCK DI injectors and stock HP fuel pump, as car goes into boost and to WOT.

Port injection is not a bottle neck, it can flow a TON of fuel, based on the injector sizes.

This is WHY GM did it on the zr1. It was a deliberate choice, not an accident.

Further, port injection cleans the back side of the valves, DI injectors create buildup... especially when atomization starts to become sub par.

Increased DI injector sizes dirty valves... port injection cleans valves. Hmmmm...

Bothers me that people don't see how simple this topic is. There is one way to do things right for the least amount of money in the long haul... and its the same way GM did it. Not coincidence.

Again, 1 more in tank zr1 pump, fore double hanger, and port injection, will take a car past 1200hp running e85. What more does a person need or want? Meth becomes a joke, and is not messed with, unless a person lives in the south west where e85 is not available, and those people i feel sorry for.

But their sub par systems need not be thrown on the rest of us in states that do have e85.

Rdubfalco

Well siad sir, pretty much nailed it!!

C5-VERT

You didn't read my response in detail I guess. I never said to replace your fuel pump, but just b/c you have the upgraded in tank pump doesn't mean you can put big power numbers down on ethanol, without some other fuel upgrades (HPFP, cam, etc.). I was simply stating to add a regulator so you can back up your STOCK fuel pressure readings on your STOCK fuel pump. HP Tuners will give you fuel pressure readings, but it's nice to have a backup. You can also make some WOT runs, kill the car immediately, then pull plugs and verify fuel conditions. I have done nearly every mod you can do and this isn't my first rodeo, been throwing engines in my car at home since 2000. I do know a little bit of what I am saying, and just trying to help. Good luck with everything!

C5-VERT

Everything Mike said is the path I went last year. Been running a Holley Port injection setup for a while now, doing more than just controlling 8 more port injectors also. I also did everything myself, fuel system, engine, procharger, headers, holley install, everything, not a bit done at a shop. I had some trial and error, did a very detailed build thread, and did my best to contribute to others here based on my success and failures. Point is you won't get but so far "safely" with a 19 in tank pump. Everyone started figuring out pretty quick that the port injection route was the best path simply b/c it can support much higher HP down the road, if needed. Upgrading HPFP, cam, DI injectors, etc won't get you near as high as port injection can.

Now keep in mind it's still best to get as much power out of the DI system as possible because it's the MOST EFFICIENT path, spraying directly in the cylinder. Port injection isn't as accurate per cylinder, as compared to DI can be. So a 30%+ cam upgrade, HPFP upgrade, getting as much power out of the DI before the port kicks in will for sure be the best path. I have already had a 4 month old port injector fail and nearly catch the back *** of my car on fire at Daytona Speedway track days 3 weeks ago. The DI injector is a much better design and will absolutely make more power better by how it atomizes fuel and is cylinder located, vs a port injector. But all this costs $$, so know your end goals, if you don't need it, it's a waste. Adding complexity for NO REASON.