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Rochester 7014800 FI starts instantly, dies when cold-start enrichment shuts off
Hello everyone,
I could use some advice from the Rochester FI experts.
My car has a 7014800 FI unit that was completely restored by Jerry Bramlett about 10 years ago. It ran excellent after the rebuild. Since then, the car has only been driven about 800 miles, and unfortunately it has now been sitting for about 2 years without being started.
When I tried to start it recently, it would not fire. With starting fluid it showed signs of life. I removed the FI unit and found a lot of small particles in the fuel valve / spill plunger area, specifically above the metal screen under the fuel valve. I removed and cleaned the fuel valve and spill plunger.
I also checked the magnetic shut-off / anti-siphon valve at the distributor spider that was installed by Jerry. With the valve energized externally, cleaning fluid came out of all 8 nozzles.
After reinstalling the unit, the current symptoms are:
Engine starts immediately while cranking (max. 2 seconds).
As soon as I release the key from “start,” it dies immediately.
Ignition appears to remain present: timing light still flashes and I still have 12.x volts at the coil.
With starting fluid, I can keep it running for several seconds.
If I manually hold the cold-start enrichment solenoid armature in the upper position, the engine keeps running, but smells very rich.
As soon as I release the solenoid armature, it dies.
So it seems that once the cold-start enrichment shuts off, the engine is going too lean.
Could this be caused by a sticking/restricted fuel valve or spill plunger, or possibly the check ball inside the fuel valve being stuck from residue after sitting? I inspected the main diaphragm and did not see any obvious damage.
Since the unit ran correctly before storage and has not been adjusted since Jerry rebuilt it, I’m hesitant to suspect calibration. Vacuum lines and fittings also look OK.
Any guidance on the next logical checks would be appreciated.
condition after removal of the metal filter screen fuel valve removed before cleaning
Jerry Bramlett has ask me to reach out to you. He is traveling at the moment and is out of pocket. On your fuel Injection have you checked the drive cable and components the drive cable square ends slide into. Based on your photo of the spill valve it also looks like you possibly have rusted fuel lines or possible even the fuel tank itself.
I Personally would not change any of the fuel settings, Jerry is very through in his calibrations so changing any fuel settings would be a last resort. Based on Your description is starting and then dying. This tells me the engine is getting fuel through the starting bypass circuit but not from the pump itself.
My Contact information is kenhansenfi@yahoo.com
or
Cell 731-487-9795
Hope to hear from you
To add to this, when I bought my fuel injected passenger car it had sat for some time with ethanol gas in the tank. The fuel filter was contaminated with rust and the injector nozzles were plugged. A complete overhaul from gas cap forward was needed. Today I'm very critical about the type of gas I use. In some areas unleaded ethanol gas is all that is available and this may be alright but not if left in storage. Also ethanol gas has a different reed vapor pressure index than what was in use when mother Rochester built these things, this may cause vapor lock. You might consider racing fuel to avoid some of these issues... Al
Joe, Jim, thank you for your advice. I contacted Jerry by email, and Ken was extremely quick to respond by email and here on the forum as well. I really appreciate that.
Ken, as I wrote to you, I will inspect the pump drive shaft cable at both ends as soon as I get the chance.
Al, you are absolutely right about ethanol-contaminated gas. I have had similar experiences before Jerry worked his magic on my FI unit, and I have been aware of that issue ever since. Unfortunately, I never inspected the gasoline tank of my ’59 C1 after I bought it 12 years ago, so now it is my job to find out whether the debris in the FI unit came from the tank, the lines, the filter or somewhere else.
For now, I will not touch any fuel calibration settings. I will first inspect the drive cable and the fuel system, including the tank, lines, filter, and pump/fuel bowl, and then report back once I know more.
Joe, Jim, thank you for your advice. I contacted Jerry by email, and Ken was extremely quick to respond by email and here on the forum as well. I really appreciate that.
Ken, as I wrote to you, I will inspect the pump drive shaft cable at both ends as soon as I get the chance.
Al, you are absolutely right about ethanol-contaminated gas. I have had similar experiences before Jerry worked his magic on my FI unit, and I have been aware of that issue ever since. Unfortunately, I never inspected the gasoline tank of my ’59 C1 after I bought it 12 years ago, so now it is my job to find out whether the debris in the FI unit came from the tank, the lines, the filter or somewhere else.
For now, I will not touch any fuel calibration settings. I will first inspect the drive cable and the fuel system, including the tank, lines, filter, and pump/fuel bowl, and then report back once I know more.
Thanks again to everyone for the help.
Jerry correctly calibrated your FI unit's air/fuel ratio using precision equipment. Once properly calibrated, an FI unit will remain properly calibrated. DO NOT change the calibration, not "for now", not ever.
Jim, understood — thank you for making that clear.
Maybe my wording was not ideal. English is not my native language. I did not mean “for now” as in “I might change the calibration later.” I only meant that my next steps are inspection and root-cause work, not adjustment.
I will not change the calibration settings. Jerry set this unit up correctly, it ran extremely well after his work, and I have no intention of disturbing that.
Jim, understood — thank you for making that clear.
Maybe my wording was not ideal. English is not my native language. I did not mean “for now” as in “I might change the calibration later.” I only meant that my next steps are inspection and root-cause work, not adjustment.
I will not change the calibration settings. Jerry set this unit up correctly, it ran extremely well after his work, and I have no intention of disturbing that.
Understood and appreciated. I apologize for coming on so harshly.
It sounds like fuel pump drive cable to me. When the cable broke on my 65 some years ago, it behaved like this. Started, but stopped when releasing key from start position.Sheck cable, and also drive gears in distributer.
today I finally had time to work on the C1 again. The good news first: she is running again!
As Ken and Gudmund suspected, the problem was the fuel pump distributor drive cable. It was broken.
At first, I was not sure whether I had damaged it during removal or whether it had already failed during my previous start attempts. But after removing and inspecting the high-pressure pump, the cause became clear: the pump was stuck. I could not turn it with the broken cable, not even carefully with pliers.
I decided to open the high-pressure pump housing and found the pump gears stuck from corrosion/residue. The attached pictures show what I found inside the pump and on the cover. I carefully cleaned everything with brake cleaner and a lint-free cloth, then reassembled the pump. Luckily, I still had a spare drive cable from Jerry.
Before putting everything back together, I also cleaned the fuel meter through the high-pressure pump opening and verified that the drive socket in the distributor was turning.
My current conclusion is that aged fuel and moisture during storage caused corrosion/residue in the high-pressure pump. The pump gears stuck to the housing/cover, and during the first start attempt the breakaway torque was too high, which destroyed the pump drive cable.
After cleaning the pump and installing the spare cable, the engine started and ran again.
However, this does not end the diagnosis for me. I still need to find the source of the particles I found in the fuel valve / spill plunger area and make sure the contamination problem is actually solved.
I will also inspect and clean the high-pressure pump more thoroughly over the next few days, because today I only cleaned it enough to verify the problem and get the engine running.
Do you have any recommendations for safely removing the remaining rust/corrosion traces from the pump gears and housing surfaces without damaging anything?
My first thought was very fine Scotch-Brite, used carefully. My current plan is to remove only loose corrosion and residue using solvent, lint-free cloths, and a fine brass brush on the steel gears. I do not want to polish or alter the pump housing or cover surfaces, since I am concerned about changing clearances. Would mild media blasting be acceptable, or is that too risky for this pump?
Thanks again to everyone who pointed me in the right direction. Ken and Gudmund were exactly right.
Hello everyone,
I will also inspect and clean the high-pressure pump more thoroughly over the next few days, because today I only cleaned it enough to verify the problem and get the engine running.
Do you have any recommendations for safely removing the remaining rust/corrosion traces from the pump gears and housing surfaces without damaging anything?
My first thought was very fine Scotch-Brite, used carefully. My current plan is to remove only loose corrosion and residue using solvent, lint-free cloths, and a fine brass brush on the steel gears. I do not want to polish or alter the pump housing or cover surfaces, since I am concerned about changing clearances. Would mild media blasting be acceptable, or is that too risky for this pump?
Whoa! Slow down tobi!
The absolute LAST thing you want to do is to attack any part of the pump interior with an abrasive, whether a Scotch Brite or blast media! Doing so risks upsetting the tight, precise clearances which are on the order of .013mm (.0005").
If you can't remove the accumulated corrosion via chemical means, I recommend that you do NOT resort to mechanical processes.
Now regarding your broken drive cable, I strongly suggest you spend extra effort cleaning the inside of the drive cable housing. Reason being that a broken cable leaves behind debris which will wear a replacement cable in short order.
See the fourth picture in posting #38 in this thread:
Rochester 7014800 FI starts instantly, dies when cold-start enrichment shuts off
