Dirty Howie

Well we were not there but I have to disagree with you Carl

The guy in the ZR1 never posts up so he can't be said to be silent.

As I said we all wind up in these little "the guy was in my way and didn't move over" bruhahahas. I had a Miata guy at CRV come and complain to me and we talked it out and ran head to head later in the day. No problem

Here is the problem as I see it. Some of these FULL RACE guys come to a HPDE and expect it to be a FULL RACE. It is NOT a RACE !!!! If you come out and say "us Miatas are doing our qualifying in HPDE RED 3, so be ready to be dive bombed" you are absolutely in the wrong. According to SV and Aaron who makes this point in every single drivers meeting…………….RED is NOT A RACE!! I don't think guys at a RACE would want a bunch of HPDE guys coming out NOT RACING. RACE guys are welcome at HPDE events but NOT to RACE !!!!!!!


DH

jbsblownc5

Again, having been there, this is by far the best explanation...

Also, the "guy in the ZR1" ran a few 1:55s that day, about 13 seconds faster then the "big fish"

jimtway

As having raced and HPDE'd both makes, Corvette and Miata, I can sympathize with both parties. When I was still doing HPDE's, running my modest 240hp S2000, I was always unnerved by full blown race cars in Red Group. The video looks pretty mild to me, typical red group stuff. But I can see some concern for the drive to the track, drive home guys if there were people dive bombing.....a lot. Aaron does state that dive bombing is frowned upon, but he also states that if you turn into a corner and are surprised to see someone there, you don't belong in Red Group. The situational awareness in Red Group IS race-like. The driving should NOT be race-like.

The real issue here is that SV put a qualifying session for one of the race groups in with a normal session. But also, that is pretty typical in Red group, where most of the time, there are SV Challenges going on, which are basically qualifying sessions. Seems like a close call was escalated in the drivers meeting and then tenfold here in Al Gore land.
The good news is that everyone made it home ok, and now we have even more banter and fodder for the Miata-Corvette wars.

fatbillybob

Nope never happened to me in 15+ years. I drive very aware of my surroundings. You should be able to see people you come up on and people who come up on you. The problem with many is that they only have one weapon...the right pedal and it is poorly used. Timing, rhythm, and execution that's how a good pass is done, something for which we should all aspire.


Racer's are clearly aware of what is HPDE. For us it is a stark contrast even if the HPDE group is open passing simulated race conditions.

The bottom line is with the speed disparity of a C6 vette over a miata if you are getting divebombed by miatas or fear the threat, you got bigger problems. If one's goal is to learn to drive faster one could tuck in behind that miata and figure out what he is doing...humility. Or one could shoot one's big mouth around preaching to one's choir only to end up with egg on one's face and learn nothing...hubris. One usually gets you further in the world than the other.

Look, I'm a corvette guy. I'm a cheerleader for Corvette Challenge. If this situation played out as it appears, an indefensible position is just...indefensible. We are all grown men with jobs and responsibilities in the real world. Arguing at download meetings about stupid stuff is really unbecoming of grown men driving $75k toys.

Dirty Howie

Carl

We seem to be talking past each other

I get all the points you are making. But they are irrelevant to my point.

ITS NOT A RACE. SLOWER CARS ARE TO YIELD. THIS IS SV RULES. PERIOD !!!!!!!!!!

Emillio's pronouncement at the drivers meeting was in direct contradiction to the rules set forth by SV.

Again, I want to say that I know and like Emillio and wish he would get rid of that sardine can and run with us in the Corvette Challenge


DH

Dirty Howie

Thanks for your input Jim. Its good to see one of our valued sponsors stepping up and making with his point of view.


DH

fatbillybob

It is not a Race has no bearing.

In every sanctioning body (any race group) and every HPDE group including SV the responsibility of a safe pass is with the passer. HPDE 101 is to hold your line and be predicatable to aid in a safe pass. That line is the race or timetrial line. That is where any driver comong up on you expects you to be. A 140 HP miata at 10/10ths is still yielding to a 600hp vette under any and all conditions. A miata is never more than 1.5M wide. It does not grow in width. If a miata holds its line any vette should be able to pick anywhere on the track and go around it. If it cannot it is not the fault of the car but lack of skill of the driver.

Now if you are just a bit faster than me passing is difficult so yes I yield more by getting out of the gas but still hold my line. So what am I using now of my 400hp? 140hp maybe...like a miata?

Emilio700

First off, sorry for ruffling feathers with the "divebomb" warning in the drivers meeting. None of us SuperMiata drivers actually intended to or did during the day. It was just my poorly worded attempt to implore the vette guys to watch their mirrors in the 3rd session. Ironic that it was us Miata drivers getting dive bombed by the most vocal of the vette drivers. None of us complained about that. We're used to it.

Regarding the block, wavering or whatever "hard to pass" thing I was accused of on the front straight when the ZR1 was passing. Video clearly shows that I didn't but, I apologized anyway.

Regarding tucking in after being passed. I apologized for that and was understandably surprised at how an experienced red group driver in such a fast car had gotten head exploding upset about it.

Regarding the attempted repass. Video clearly shows me lifting to stay behind and hold my distance. But yah, I apologized for that too.

Regarding the rocks that Sonny kicked on to the track. Oops. He's multi time national champion driver and made an uncharacteristic mistake, once that day. It was not as if he was doing it over and over.

So yeah, a single word in the drivers meeting caused this bruhaha. Nothing that actually happened on or off track. Bruise a driver's ego and watch out. That might be what separates the vette men from the Miata dweebs. We are driving gutless, hair dresser cars associated with homosexuality so we develop ah, well, less fragile egos.

Howie, I'd run with you guys now and then if I could compete on equal terms. Being bumped up a class because I have a club racing license kinda takes the fun out of it for me though. Besides that, I'm too cheap to feed the beast the tires and brakes it likes to snack on when I can spend a fraction of that and actually W2W race the Miata

Mike.D

nice run Joel, call me next week if you're going to be in Temecula

Dirty Howie

Carl

We continue to talk past each other ………….


DH

Dirty Howie

Thanks for checking in Emillio

I wasn't there but I never have a problem speaking up at drivers meetings. Maybe this all would have gone down different if I was there to help interpret both sides. And too bad Aaron wasn't there either !!!

And like I said before we all run into small issues on the track from time to time. I think thats just part of the experience and should be expected.

As far as you running with us ……… all the other licensed drivers are subjected to the same rule as you. Oli, Jim, Bill and others come out and still dominate


DH

Olitho

This is absolutely not correct. It is the responsibility of the overtaking car to pass safely. It is foolish to think the car being passed has all the visibility of the situation as the passing car. The passing car has the advantage of speed and choice of if and when to make the pass and therefore owns the responsibility to pass cleanly. The passing car should always keep in mind that perhaps the car getting passed is not aware even though that should not be the case.

Don't confuse what Aaron says. He does say that if you are "driving a Viper and a Miata shows up in your mirror that car is faster" no matter how fast your car is on the straight. If they show up in your mirror anywhere on the track, overall that car is turning a faster lap time. What he instructs the drivers of the high HP cars to do is to lift enough off the throttle to let the lower HP car by. After a few turns that car will widen the gap and be gone and the high HP car won't re-catch the car on the straights.

Don't confuse this with the expectation that slower cars must yield.

I have been doing this for a long time now and the ego or sense entitlement for special consideration of some drivers in faster or more expensive cars is an interesting human condition. Somehow the size of the check they wrote or the speed advantage of the extra HP seems to translate into having more rights on the track than the "lowly" cars. It does not work that way. We all paid the same amount of money to be on the track....

Rob Burgoon

If you're in red and you don't like another car being close behind; let them past, drive faster, or pit.

If you're in red and you're in a car over 400hp and you feel you're being "held up" by a miata, you have no business being in red.

If you're in red and you feel the need to bitch about ANYTHING that isn't contact you probably belong in another run group.

Olitho

The speed differential at the end of the straight between Emilio's Miata and the Corvettes was staggering. How one could complain that he did not get out of the way fast enough or whatever is beyond me. If you car is that friggin' fast, just pass and move on. So what if he was behind you for a few turns until you can put the hammer down on the next straight. It only lasted a few turns. Maybe the conversation should have been, "Hey, you are fast in the twisties, how do you deal with that bump mid-turn...?"

jbsblownc5

Thanks Mike, I'll call you later today...

jbsblownc5

Thank you for the response Emilio. I find it to be factual, although having been there during the whole conversation, I think we could have ended it much sooner if above said apologies came at the beginning of the conversation, not after 15 minutes of debating your side. I also thank you for acknowledging what was probably not the best thing to announce at the opening drivers meeting.

I only came up on you once that day, and you politely let me pass, as my video shows...

Having had fun with making and EDITING videos for the last 8 years, I know how to show what I want people to see in my videos. Your video was just one small segment of the session, and maybe it was a good representation of the whole first session, if so, God bless...

What Oli and the other "RACERS" fail to see, since they were not there, is the point that Aaron, who runs these events always makes.

If red group was the only outlet for drivers to jump on the track and go 10/10s, then I could see the racers points. The point is, it' not.

They have other venues to do that, were ALL parties are up for/and have required safety equipment for the type of racing that DID go on just a bit more then it should have in the first session.


Again Emilio, I do thank you for stepping up and giving your opinion here...

Hollywood Extra

There was far less drama in GREEN last weekend. I loved the track configuration - tight, technical turns plus three areas where I was 120+ mph. Lots of fun.

I also switched from PS2s to PSSs last weekend. First, I need to say that this "experiment" was far from scientific. There were too many uncontrolled variables. I ran PS2s on Saturday and PSSs on Sunday. That is it.


The Car:
2006 Corvette Z06
WCCH heads, Airraid CAI, Tune
Camber: -3 degrees front, -1.7 degrees rear
Brakes: Carbotech XP24 front, XP10 rear; KNS 4K Rotors
Brake Cooling Ducts, Fog Light Inlet

Michelin PS2 Set Up:
19" Front / 20" Rear Wheels - GM Cup Style (2012-13 ZR1, Z07)
285/30-R19 PS2 Runflat - Front
335/25-R20 PS2 Runflat - Rear

Michelin Pilot Super Sport Set Up:
18" Front / 19" Rear Wheels - Stock 2006 Z06
285/35-R18 PSS NON Runflat - Front
345/30-R19 PSS NON Runflat - Rear


The PS2s were new in January at our first event at Buttonwillow. I ran 5 sessions at Buttonwillow in January, 4 sessions at Auto Club in February, 4 sessions at Chuckwalla in March, 5 sessions at Buttonwillow in April, and 4 sessions on Saturday at Spring Mountain. I ran the stock camber settings for the first two events (9 sessions) and then made the camber changes before Chuckwalla.

I have attached pictures of the tires - PS2 after 22 sessions on Left, New PSS on Right.


Fast Lap on PS2 Saturday: 02:04:196
Fast Lap on PSS Sunday: 02:03:064


Perhaps new PS2s would have given similar times to the new PSS. Perhaps my learning of the track is the difference in times. I don't know. I do know that the steering felt more responsive and I felt like I had more traction putting power down out of the corners with the new PSS.

I can't say for a fact that PSS are faster, but I do not believe they are slower. With such a substantial price difference, I am happy running the PSS.

Below are my fast lap videos for the weekend:

Dirty Howie

Is there some confusion between lifting and yielding. If so then let me use the word lifting, which is what I meant !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You sound like Carl, repeating the obvious over and over.

Who is arguing that the faster car should not be allowed to pass and that ultimately it is the passing cars responsibility to make it a safe pass ?????????

All that has nothing to do with proclaiming a Qualifying Race in a RED HPDE session

From what I have been told that was the genesis of the whole issue ....... and admitted to by Emillio


DH

Dirty Howie

Nick

I have been waiting for your PS2/PSS testing.

My main interest revolved around information I heard that a Michelin engineer said the PS2 in the 19/20 combo will out perform the PSS in 18/19 combo on the track. Supposedly, the PS2 in that size was specially formulated and engineered.

So since I have not run that track I have no idea if 1 second is huge or not. But I would have expected you to gain more than 1 second if the tires were equal since you had a whole day plus of experience on Sunday. AND wasn't the temps 25* or more cooler on Sunday which should of helped your times as well?

What do you think ?????????????????


DH

Hollywood Extra

The high on Saturday was 102 and the high on Sunday was 94. I looked at the raw GoPro footage (higher resolution) during my fast laps. According to my car it was 88 degrees on Saturday when I set my PS2 fast lap and 86 degrees on Sunday when I set my PSS fast lap (both were in GREEN 2).

I'm sure learning the track made me faster, how much I don't know. I also had to learn the new tires, which felt much different, so I thought that might equal it out some.

I'm not convinced there is much of a difference between the two tire types. Going back to Buttonwillow and Auto Club later this year on PSS will be interesting.