[ANSWERED] Thoughts on Results of Best Driver's and Lightning Lap?
10-25-2018, 06:50 PM
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"Ask Tadge" Producer
[ANSWERED] Thoughts on Results of Best Driver's and Lightning Lap?
The original question is here.
jvp asked:
Now that both Motor Trend and Car and Driver have released their late summer performance comparisons, what are your thoughts on how the ZR1 stacked up against the competitors in each case? Any insight you may be able to offer with respect to each outing?
Now that both Motor Trend and Car and Driver have released their late summer performance comparisons, what are your thoughts on how the ZR1 stacked up against the competitors in each case? Any insight you may be able to offer with respect to each outing?
Tadge answered:
This is a bit of an open ended question but it is a good follow up to the last AT question. We are always proud to be tested against the best super cars in the world. With many similar comparisons published at this point and more to come it’s clear that most of the automotive media has concluded that Porsches, Ferraris, McLarens and other exotics are the correct competitors for the Corvette and that, on balance, we do very well in this crowd.
The question specifically referenced the Car and Driver Lighting Lap and the Motor Trend Best Driver’s Car competition. These are very different tests on many levels. One of these differences is definitely track to track variation. Cars tend to do the best on the types of tracks where they are developed most. We never knowingly sacrifice performance at one track in favor of another, however, Laguna is not one of our primary tracks so the car may not be optimal there due to its unique pavement conditions. It’s interesting to note that a couple months prior to Motor Trend’s test at Laguna Seca Randy Pobst set a track record in the ZR1 at Road Atlanta and had many good things to say about it’s performance. There was also a recent Automobile Magazine test vs Porsche and McLaren at the Motorsports Park in Kentucky. It was a very hot day and the ZR1 performed very well. The ZR1 is getting a lot of attention and there will be many other tests of the car around the world. Although some reviews are better than others, we are very happy overall with how the car is being assessed by the media.
Back to Lightning Lap and BDC…. Philosophically it seems as though C&D reports descriptively on how a vehicle drives so the reader can understand the experience while MT has their concept of an ideal driver’s car and they rank the vehicles relative to that ideal. While both are valid methods for comparison that difference alone sheds light on why perspectives differ. Of course this is merely speculation based on reading the articles. We don’t have a seat at the table as editors are crafting their approach.
We should comment on some of the specifics in the article and how those are being expanded upon in forum discussions. Motor Trend made a comment that the Chevy team “begged for a morning run in the cool, dense air” and we know that has led to speculation that the ZR1 is not robust to temperature. The truth of the matter is our team was fine running in the afternoon if the other heavy hitters also ran that afternoon. After all, regardless of cooling system performance, physics applies to all cars equally so a comparison with large temperature differences can never be a fair one. Since the other cars were planned for the morning of day 3, we requested similar treatment.
To further directly address the cooling system question, we were able to prove the robustness and performance of the car during our earlier media launch at Road Atlanta. When Randy set the production car track record the ambient temps were in the low 50s. A couple days later Andy Pilgrim ran a similar session with temps in the mid to upper 80s and was within 1mph to Randy at the end of the backstretch. That same afternoon Andy ran a 13 lap session and his top speed only dropped 3 mph from Lap 1 to Lap 13. You can see Andy’s comments on that run in his Automobile article. Further, during Lightning Lap testing C&D was within 2 seconds of Jim Mero’s record setting lap even though temperatures were 40 degrees warmer. This is a remarkable result for any car, let alone with limited laps for the C&D driver to familiarize themselves with the car.
This is a bit of an open ended question but it is a good follow up to the last AT question. We are always proud to be tested against the best super cars in the world. With many similar comparisons published at this point and more to come it’s clear that most of the automotive media has concluded that Porsches, Ferraris, McLarens and other exotics are the correct competitors for the Corvette and that, on balance, we do very well in this crowd.
The question specifically referenced the Car and Driver Lighting Lap and the Motor Trend Best Driver’s Car competition. These are very different tests on many levels. One of these differences is definitely track to track variation. Cars tend to do the best on the types of tracks where they are developed most. We never knowingly sacrifice performance at one track in favor of another, however, Laguna is not one of our primary tracks so the car may not be optimal there due to its unique pavement conditions. It’s interesting to note that a couple months prior to Motor Trend’s test at Laguna Seca Randy Pobst set a track record in the ZR1 at Road Atlanta and had many good things to say about it’s performance. There was also a recent Automobile Magazine test vs Porsche and McLaren at the Motorsports Park in Kentucky. It was a very hot day and the ZR1 performed very well. The ZR1 is getting a lot of attention and there will be many other tests of the car around the world. Although some reviews are better than others, we are very happy overall with how the car is being assessed by the media.
Back to Lightning Lap and BDC…. Philosophically it seems as though C&D reports descriptively on how a vehicle drives so the reader can understand the experience while MT has their concept of an ideal driver’s car and they rank the vehicles relative to that ideal. While both are valid methods for comparison that difference alone sheds light on why perspectives differ. Of course this is merely speculation based on reading the articles. We don’t have a seat at the table as editors are crafting their approach.
We should comment on some of the specifics in the article and how those are being expanded upon in forum discussions. Motor Trend made a comment that the Chevy team “begged for a morning run in the cool, dense air” and we know that has led to speculation that the ZR1 is not robust to temperature. The truth of the matter is our team was fine running in the afternoon if the other heavy hitters also ran that afternoon. After all, regardless of cooling system performance, physics applies to all cars equally so a comparison with large temperature differences can never be a fair one. Since the other cars were planned for the morning of day 3, we requested similar treatment.
To further directly address the cooling system question, we were able to prove the robustness and performance of the car during our earlier media launch at Road Atlanta. When Randy set the production car track record the ambient temps were in the low 50s. A couple days later Andy Pilgrim ran a similar session with temps in the mid to upper 80s and was within 1mph to Randy at the end of the backstretch. That same afternoon Andy ran a 13 lap session and his top speed only dropped 3 mph from Lap 1 to Lap 13. You can see Andy’s comments on that run in his Automobile article. Further, during Lightning Lap testing C&D was within 2 seconds of Jim Mero’s record setting lap even though temperatures were 40 degrees warmer. This is a remarkable result for any car, let alone with limited laps for the C&D driver to familiarize themselves with the car.
Last edited by jvp; 10-25-2018 at 06:50 PM.
Popular Reply
10-27-2018, 11:22 AM
1. Hot weather test versus cooler weather test. Add insult to injury and deceitfully communicate it and print it as "begging"
2. Non street compliant tires test versus stock street tires
3. PTM disablement versus non PTM/nanny disablement
4. Grossly misrepresentation of "as tested" weights and performance
If this is what it takes to sell goods in the 250K+ car club then I can only laugh and empathize..
2. Non street compliant tires test versus stock street tires
3. PTM disablement versus non PTM/nanny disablement
4. Grossly misrepresentation of "as tested" weights and performance
If this is what it takes to sell goods in the 250K+ car club then I can only laugh and empathize..
10-26-2018, 06:46 AM
#2
As for MT blatant "begging" misstatement, I suppose with age and experience savvy corvette owners can discern the funny business of automotive magazine editorials. I simply chuckled. Good $1 dollar entertainment.
No mention on competition's tires switcheroo's. Taking the high ground I suppose or just chuckling at that as well.
Thank you Tadge.
No mention on competition's tires switcheroo's. Taking the high ground I suppose or just chuckling at that as well.
Thank you Tadge.
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10-27-2018, 05:09 AM
#3
So I guess the ZR1 was tested in the afternoon when it was hot as hell vs the rest in the cool morning air. That is not biased at all lmao. What a bunch of clowns really.
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10-27-2018, 09:00 AM
#4
Drifting
Thanks Tadge for the response. I always take the magazine tests with a grain of salt.
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ArmchairArchitect (10-28-2018)
10-27-2018, 09:32 AM
#5
No I think they tested it on the morning, but GM had to request it be run at the same time as the competitors, so then the author of the story wrote it as GM begging for the morning, with no context that they were just asking for even footing, instead framing it like they were begging for an advantage.
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10-27-2018, 10:13 AM
#6
No I think they tested it on the morning, but GM had to request it be run at the same time as the competitors, so then the author of the story wrote it as GM begging for the morning, with no context that they were just asking for even footing, instead framing it like they were begging for an advantage.
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10-27-2018, 11:22 AM
#7
1. Hot weather test versus cooler weather test. Add insult to injury and deceitfully communicate it and print it as "begging"
2. Non street compliant tires test versus stock street tires
3. PTM disablement versus non PTM/nanny disablement
4. Grossly misrepresentation of "as tested" weights and performance
If this is what it takes to sell goods in the 250K+ car club then I can only laugh and empathize..
2. Non street compliant tires test versus stock street tires
3. PTM disablement versus non PTM/nanny disablement
4. Grossly misrepresentation of "as tested" weights and performance
If this is what it takes to sell goods in the 250K+ car club then I can only laugh and empathize..
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10-27-2018, 03:52 PM
#8
I thought I remembered the article complaining about putting power down in the cold weather which is why I thought GM's request was granted. I'll have to read the article again.
10-27-2018, 07:25 PM
#9
Thank you Tadge! The Corvette is and will always be a force to be reckon with in the sports and super car world! I say job well done. It’s an honor to have our cars be in conversation with the cars it’s been tested against. I say team Corvette and Corvette is the little engine that could.
10-30-2018, 08:55 PM
#10
Le Mans Master
Very Passive! ;)
Mero did his job! Too bad we don't really know the context of which as it pertains to 'Race Mode'. Could a happy driver excitably consider 'Race' all off!?
(Are they taking a passive high road here, Too? 'They know we basically know!')
Dono, tink -yes!
(Are they taking a passive high road here, Too? 'They know we basically know!')
Dono, tink -yes!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 10-30-2018 at 11:02 PM.
11-01-2018, 11:45 AM
#11
Instructor
Very informative and thoughtful response.
Thanks and congratulations on the GTLM team championship!
https://sportscarchampionship.imsa.c...ngs/team%C2%A0
Thanks and congratulations on the GTLM team championship!
https://sportscarchampionship.imsa.c...ngs/team%C2%A0
11-06-2018, 06:45 PM
#12
Race Director
Good summation by Tadge, and I wish he was elaborate more on the magazine's testing procedures (he has to be diplomatic). I do wonder why we give any credence to these "tests" any way, and especially the laughable BDC. The 2017 BDC was a absolute abomination and an exercise in trying to engineer outcomes that would suit their favorite cars.
They put Octane boost in the GTR, but the other pressurized cars got nothing. That included the 488, the 911 Turbo, the Camaro and so on. As it turned out, the Nissan broke anyway, despite MT making every effort to try to put it over the top and Nissan (as usual) having their top engineers there in person to tweak the car. It is dishonest, but you have to admire their dedication to ensure good magazine test outcomes and using every inch of the rope handed them by the "test" organizers.
MT were especially intent on making sure no Corvette got anywhere near the top spot. First, they tested a GS and not a Z06. Then, they ran the car very first out, early morning, in crappy conditions, knowing full well the Cup 2s would never get enough heat in them to perform well. All the other top contenders ran in the afternoon. They also ran in Sport mode on some trumped-up excuse about settings. The only fair shake the Vette got was the figure 8, which they were forced to run in quick succession to the other cars for scheduling reasons. The GS finished that #1, and of course this was not even acknowledged anywhere in the article.
At at least the Ferrari and not the Porsche won, for a change, but BDC is an abject disgrace nonetheless.
They put Octane boost in the GTR, but the other pressurized cars got nothing. That included the 488, the 911 Turbo, the Camaro and so on. As it turned out, the Nissan broke anyway, despite MT making every effort to try to put it over the top and Nissan (as usual) having their top engineers there in person to tweak the car. It is dishonest, but you have to admire their dedication to ensure good magazine test outcomes and using every inch of the rope handed them by the "test" organizers.
MT were especially intent on making sure no Corvette got anywhere near the top spot. First, they tested a GS and not a Z06. Then, they ran the car very first out, early morning, in crappy conditions, knowing full well the Cup 2s would never get enough heat in them to perform well. All the other top contenders ran in the afternoon. They also ran in Sport mode on some trumped-up excuse about settings. The only fair shake the Vette got was the figure 8, which they were forced to run in quick succession to the other cars for scheduling reasons. The GS finished that #1, and of course this was not even acknowledged anywhere in the article.
At at least the Ferrari and not the Porsche won, for a change, but BDC is an abject disgrace nonetheless.
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Bwright (07-02-2020)
11-06-2018, 10:54 PM
#13
Race Director
Car and Driver has always been (IMO) the best of the car magazines in terms of fairness (been a subscriber for 40 years). Motor Trend has always been (again, IMO) written for kids. The "begging" comment was typical of them and why I don't buy their magazine and haven't for decades.
11-10-2018, 03:05 PM
#14
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I think the real "best driver car" test and results can be seen simply by attending hpde's, going to optima ultimate street car competitions and looking throughout scca and nasa "affordable" events. Corvette C5-C7 is just winner winner, and more winner.
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ArmchairArchitect (11-15-2018)
11-13-2018, 07:30 PM
#15
Safety Car
BDC included among others, an SUV, a Kia, and a front wheel drive hatch. I don't see a conclusion from the media that the Corvette should be compared against exotics. We often see the cheap or economy cars make it into the top few slots in these comparisons.
The latest BDC comparison stated the time differentials the Lambo got while being tested later in the the day, and the times were still considerably quicker than the ZR1:
"The Lambo's first flying lap stops the clock at 1:30.00. [...] Because the Lamborghini has twice broken the noise limit and a third strike would restrict the car to 30 mph on the track, we decide to switch to the quieter action of filming and photography before we try a final hot lap later in the day. By then, though, with the track temperature up, the magic is gone for good, and a 1:31.00 is all Randy can manage."
So subtract a second for less than ideal track time temperature and you still get 1:31.46. That is to say ZR1 doesn't move up in the rankings at all.
As for the car being optimized for a track, a) no production car comes with damper and aero settings optimized for a specific track, b) Corvettes are sold worldwide/nationwide, c) cars may be better suited for a track than others but Motor Trend didn't pick Laguna Seca to shaft Corvette.
I would have preferred Tadge talked about something relevant, like those Cup 2 R tires. I don't find any of his arguments here persuasive, although this dialog does usually provide some useful input. It is not the case here.
The latest BDC comparison stated the time differentials the Lambo got while being tested later in the the day, and the times were still considerably quicker than the ZR1:
"The Lambo's first flying lap stops the clock at 1:30.00. [...] Because the Lamborghini has twice broken the noise limit and a third strike would restrict the car to 30 mph on the track, we decide to switch to the quieter action of filming and photography before we try a final hot lap later in the day. By then, though, with the track temperature up, the magic is gone for good, and a 1:31.00 is all Randy can manage."
So subtract a second for less than ideal track time temperature and you still get 1:31.46. That is to say ZR1 doesn't move up in the rankings at all.
As for the car being optimized for a track, a) no production car comes with damper and aero settings optimized for a specific track, b) Corvettes are sold worldwide/nationwide, c) cars may be better suited for a track than others but Motor Trend didn't pick Laguna Seca to shaft Corvette.
I would have preferred Tadge talked about something relevant, like those Cup 2 R tires. I don't find any of his arguments here persuasive, although this dialog does usually provide some useful input. It is not the case here.