Road Race with Non Synthetic Oil ??
11-01-2007, 01:19 AM
#1
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Road Race with Non Synthetic Oil ??
Got a new engine. Builder (SCDP) recommends 5,000 miles with dyno oil containing ZDDP.
Can I track the car without synthetic oil ???
Some say yes as long as oil temp does not exceed something like 240*
I want to break this engine in right but I also want to get to the track
Experienced opinions would be appreciated.......
DH
Can I track the car without synthetic oil ???
Some say yes as long as oil temp does not exceed something like 240*
I want to break this engine in right but I also want to get to the track
Experienced opinions would be appreciated.......
DH
11-01-2007, 01:48 AM
#2
Burning Brakes
Howie -- there's two schools of thought when it comes down to motor break-ins.
a) Stick in your normal oil, baby it for 500 miles, then start turning up the go peddle for a bit. The concept being that the rings will seat over this first 500, and the motor will come to some kind of zen one-ness. Change oil at the end of the breakin cycle.
b) Stick in a higher-than usual weight oil (dino oil, for example), don't wait for 500 miles, and beat it like it owes you money. Forget zen, everything seats and wears itself into position because it has no choice in the matter. The heavier weight oil helps speed things along. In addition to seating things down in a hurry, it's also a lot more fun than option A.
ask me how I usually break my motors in.
Seriously, tho -- you can track it with a heavier weight synthetic, or with dino oil. With dino, watch your oil temps, and you'll be fine. Rev the hell out of it, then back off a bit if the temps start climbing too high.
a) Stick in your normal oil, baby it for 500 miles, then start turning up the go peddle for a bit. The concept being that the rings will seat over this first 500, and the motor will come to some kind of zen one-ness. Change oil at the end of the breakin cycle.
b) Stick in a higher-than usual weight oil (dino oil, for example), don't wait for 500 miles, and beat it like it owes you money. Forget zen, everything seats and wears itself into position because it has no choice in the matter. The heavier weight oil helps speed things along. In addition to seating things down in a hurry, it's also a lot more fun than option A.
ask me how I usually break my motors in.
Seriously, tho -- you can track it with a heavier weight synthetic, or with dino oil. With dino, watch your oil temps, and you'll be fine. Rev the hell out of it, then back off a bit if the temps start climbing too high.
11-01-2007, 02:46 AM
#3
Le Mans Master
emf, the issue now is complicated by the reduction of ZDDP in many
oils - a measure undertaken to help extend catalyst life, IIRC.
ZDDP, a common anti-wear additive with a zinc-phosphorus molecule,
has been limited to a max of 0.01% by weight since Jan/04 as a stop
-gap measure until a suitable replacement additive can be determined.
Some reading
While the flat-tappet crowd has been affected much more than those
with roller tappets, your builder, no doubt is aware of the differences
and yet still recommends a ZDDP-rich mineral (dino) oil for break-in.
As for temps, 240-250º was the range where varnish began to form
with mineral oil.
A useful resource for knowledgeable advice about oils is the site
You will very likely be able to find a VOA (virgin oil analysis) of the oil
suggested by the builder to compare what ZDDP levels it has, relative
to other choices. People there will be able to comment about the
operating ranges of current mineral oils.
.
oils - a measure undertaken to help extend catalyst life, IIRC.
ZDDP, a common anti-wear additive with a zinc-phosphorus molecule,
has been limited to a max of 0.01% by weight since Jan/04 as a stop
-gap measure until a suitable replacement additive can be determined.
Some reading
While the flat-tappet crowd has been affected much more than those
with roller tappets, your builder, no doubt is aware of the differences
and yet still recommends a ZDDP-rich mineral (dino) oil for break-in.
As for temps, 240-250º was the range where varnish began to form
with mineral oil.
A useful resource for knowledgeable advice about oils is the site
You will very likely be able to find a VOA (virgin oil analysis) of the oil
suggested by the builder to compare what ZDDP levels it has, relative
to other choices. People there will be able to comment about the
operating ranges of current mineral oils.
.
11-01-2007, 03:14 AM
#4
Burning Brakes
Good info that covers some of the recent changes. Doesn't change the landscape too much, but helps make sure you're using the right decision process -- whether you use Redline / Delo / Rotella / similar / etc / etc, same basic concept.
Bottom line, and to Howie's question -- Dino is fine (and in most cases is still a better answer for break-in).
Howie -- couple recommendations, generically. Find out what the builder prefers for oil, and buy enough for 2 fills.
Fill the motor, warm it up, and put some decent load on it for 20-30 minutes or so. Could be one session, could be some "spirited" driving, etc.
Pull the oil, and refill.
If it's a track weekend, pull the oil when you're done with the weekend -- watch temps in each session, and make sure to check oil levels frequently. If you want to be extra safe, set the RPM bar at 6/10ths the first session of the weekend, and turn it up to 10/10ths gradually.
Run normal oil from there.
I'm assuming the 5k mile recommendation comes from street / normal easy breakin miles . . . . IMO, treat it like the proverbial red-headed stepchild for a weekend.
Bottom line, and to Howie's question -- Dino is fine (and in most cases is still a better answer for break-in).
Howie -- couple recommendations, generically. Find out what the builder prefers for oil, and buy enough for 2 fills.
Fill the motor, warm it up, and put some decent load on it for 20-30 minutes or so. Could be one session, could be some "spirited" driving, etc.
Pull the oil, and refill.
If it's a track weekend, pull the oil when you're done with the weekend -- watch temps in each session, and make sure to check oil levels frequently. If you want to be extra safe, set the RPM bar at 6/10ths the first session of the weekend, and turn it up to 10/10ths gradually.
Run normal oil from there.
I'm assuming the 5k mile recommendation comes from street / normal easy breakin miles . . . . IMO, treat it like the proverbial red-headed stepchild for a weekend.
: Come on man tell us . . . .
11-01-2007, 09:27 AM
#7
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2001
Location: Virginia Beach
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CI 3-5-6-7-8 Veteran
FWIW modern motors break in w/ in the first few minutes of running. LS7 are all dyno tested at the factory. They're fired up on natural gas I believe to get everything seated then ready to go. The mfg's suggested breakin is to let the trans/rear mesh properly.
11-01-2007, 09:39 AM
#8
Safety Car
11-01-2007, 10:26 AM
#10
Melting Slicks
There's nothing at all wrong with regular oil. I tracked my old 89 for 7 years and used mostly crude oil...and ran oil temps to 295 with no issues. It had 25K track miles and 90K overall - no issues.
Having said that, synthetic is better and doesn't break down as fast and has a higher break down temp. I think Mr. Heinricy was reported as saying you could run the LS6 engine at 330 degrees oil temp with no issues, but at 340, it broke down. I wouldn't run regular oil over 300, but if you have a good cooler on there, I doubt you'll have any issues.
Having said that, synthetic is better and doesn't break down as fast and has a higher break down temp. I think Mr. Heinricy was reported as saying you could run the LS6 engine at 330 degrees oil temp with no issues, but at 340, it broke down. I wouldn't run regular oil over 300, but if you have a good cooler on there, I doubt you'll have any issues.
11-01-2007, 01:03 PM
#12
Le Mans Master
synthetic, but oil temp on my car is regulated to stay well below 295º.
Originally Posted by wtknght1
I wouldn't run regular oil over 300, but if you have a good cooler on
there, I doubt you'll have any issues.
there, I doubt you'll have any issues.
is brewing.
If there is a big purse and/or a trophy girl at the finish line (plus a
sponsor to pick up the tab after the weekend), keep the pedal down.
Otherwise, discretion might be in order.
.
11-01-2007, 04:47 PM
#13
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Howie -- there's two schools of thought when it comes down to motor break-ins.
a) Stick in your normal oil, baby it for 500 miles, then start turning up the go peddle for a bit. The concept being that the rings will seat over this first 500, and the motor will come to some kind of zen one-ness. Change oil at the end of the breakin cycle.
b) Stick in a higher-than usual weight oil (dino oil, for example), don't wait for 500 miles, and beat it like it owes you money. Forget zen, everything seats and wears itself into position because it has no choice in the matter. The heavier weight oil helps speed things along. In addition to seating things down in a hurry, it's also a lot more fun than option A.
ask me how I usually break my motors in.
Seriously, tho -- you can track it with a heavier weight synthetic, or with dino oil. With dino, watch your oil temps, and you'll be fine. Rev the hell out of it, then back off a bit if the temps start climbing too high.
a) Stick in your normal oil, baby it for 500 miles, then start turning up the go peddle for a bit. The concept being that the rings will seat over this first 500, and the motor will come to some kind of zen one-ness. Change oil at the end of the breakin cycle.
b) Stick in a higher-than usual weight oil (dino oil, for example), don't wait for 500 miles, and beat it like it owes you money. Forget zen, everything seats and wears itself into position because it has no choice in the matter. The heavier weight oil helps speed things along. In addition to seating things down in a hurry, it's also a lot more fun than option A.
ask me how I usually break my motors in.
Seriously, tho -- you can track it with a heavier weight synthetic, or with dino oil. With dino, watch your oil temps, and you'll be fine. Rev the hell out of it, then back off a bit if the temps start climbing too high.
Eric
I ran it hard for first 500 with 30wt Valvoline VR1. Lots of up and down the RPM range. I did not baby it ...got the oil temps up to 241, Now I got same oil (has the ZDDP) but 20-50wt and am driving in my normal way
So I have 800 miles on it now.
DH
11-01-2007, 04:52 PM
#15
Team Owner
Thread Starter
emf, the issue now is complicated by the reduction of ZDDP in many
oils - a measure undertaken to help extend catalyst life, IIRC.
ZDDP, a common anti-wear additive with a zinc-phosphorus molecule,
has been limited to a max of 0.01% by weight since Jan/04 as a stop
-gap measure until a suitable replacement additive can be determined.
Some reading
While the flat-tappet crowd has been affected much more than those
with roller tappets, your builder, no doubt is aware of the differences
and yet still recommends a ZDDP-rich mineral (dino) oil for break-in.
As for temps, 240-250º was the range where varnish began to form
with mineral oil.
A useful resource for knowledgeable advice about oils is the site
You will very likely be able to find a VOA (virgin oil analysis) of the oil
suggested by the builder to compare what ZDDP levels it has, relative
to other choices. People there will be able to comment about the
operating ranges of current mineral oils.
.
oils - a measure undertaken to help extend catalyst life, IIRC.
ZDDP, a common anti-wear additive with a zinc-phosphorus molecule,
has been limited to a max of 0.01% by weight since Jan/04 as a stop
-gap measure until a suitable replacement additive can be determined.
Some reading
While the flat-tappet crowd has been affected much more than those
with roller tappets, your builder, no doubt is aware of the differences
and yet still recommends a ZDDP-rich mineral (dino) oil for break-in.
As for temps, 240-250º was the range where varnish began to form
with mineral oil.
A useful resource for knowledgeable advice about oils is the site
You will very likely be able to find a VOA (virgin oil analysis) of the oil
suggested by the builder to compare what ZDDP levels it has, relative
to other choices. People there will be able to comment about the
operating ranges of current mineral oils.
.
Thanks for the links and tips....
I got the oil up to 241 but only for a couple of minutes.
The Valvoline VR1 oil was okayed by SCDP when I called them. It has
.12-.13% ZDDP. I am planning on switching to the Valvoline synthetic that also has ZDDP after a few thousand miles.
DH
11-01-2007, 04:58 PM
#16
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I didn't really start a thread regarding it.
This is what I got (I updated my sig): swapped a 416 shortblock for the 402, 225 AFR Heads for the 205, and upped the cam to 228-232 from 224-228. The rest is the same. Feel very good. Needs topend dyno tune to see numbers...hoping for 500 to the wheels.
It will work good at the track
DH
11-01-2007, 07:19 PM
#18
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Feb 2000
Location: Bedford NH
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Cruise-In II Veteran
I don't run dead Dinos in my tractor or generator, much less my ZO6. Why would I want the sulfur, light and/or heavy molecules in anything I own? I don't run anything other than synthetic even to lube my door hinges in the bathroom. There is no question that the syn's are better, it is simply a matter of do you think the extra cost is worth it.
11-02-2007, 12:27 AM
#19
Burning Brakes
Our race engines don't get street break in miles and we don't see any problems with it; they hit the track running! They also start life with the same type of oil (Redline full synth). A different thought process I guess.
11-02-2007, 01:32 AM
#20
Le Mans Master
For what it is worth, Redline has high levels of Zn. The VOA's for their
street oils show numbers in the 1,400 ppm. I haven't pulled up VOA's
that list numbers for their race oils but I've seen comments that these
are in the order of 2,600 ppm (VOA for Royal Purple race oil shows Zn
as 1,900.)
With regard to yard implement engines, I use ZDDP-rich oils in my
garden tractor, lawn mower, snow blower, pressure washer and the
'lumber' wagon that has a flat tappet V6. None of these engines
has catalytic converters and all of them are perfectly serviceable
for my purposes - I intend to keep them that way for as long as
possible. No sense wiping the cam lobes prematurely.
I'm in agreement with ghoffman as regards the suitability of synth for hinges.
.
street oils show numbers in the 1,400 ppm. I haven't pulled up VOA's
that list numbers for their race oils but I've seen comments that these
are in the order of 2,600 ppm (VOA for Royal Purple race oil shows Zn
as 1,900.)
With regard to yard implement engines, I use ZDDP-rich oils in my
garden tractor, lawn mower, snow blower, pressure washer and the
'lumber' wagon that has a flat tappet V6. None of these engines
has catalytic converters and all of them are perfectly serviceable
for my purposes - I intend to keep them that way for as long as
possible. No sense wiping the cam lobes prematurely.
I'm in agreement with ghoffman as regards the suitability of synth for hinges.
.