Wilwood C4 BBK
06-18-2008, 07:17 PM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Wilwood C4 BBK
FYI Spoke to Todd at TCE today:http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/
He said he would be able to modify the hat and supply a kit for the Wilwood 6 piston Superlite 6R with a 1.25" thick rotor rather than the 1.1" thick version in this Wilwood kit:
http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/ds479.pdf
He said he would be able to modify the hat and supply a kit for the Wilwood 6 piston Superlite 6R with a 1.25" thick rotor rather than the 1.1" thick version in this Wilwood kit:
http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/ds479.pdf
06-18-2008, 07:44 PM
#2
Melting Slicks
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I had Daryll at Revolution Brakes do me a kit for C4R with Wilwood SL4, w the 1.75" pistons (they had more power then I could use) and C5 rotors since I like the disposability of the stock rotor and you need to go through alot of front rotors at $50 or $60 per pair to equal the cost of a pair of 3 piece rotors.
They can also do the 6 pots
His fitment was perfect and his price for the custom kit was CHEAP.
They can also do the 6 pots
His fitment was perfect and his price for the custom kit was CHEAP.
Last edited by DREGSZ; 06-18-2008 at 07:52 PM.
06-18-2008, 08:16 PM
#3
Former Vendor
That's not a bad alternative either. The disposable rotor plan is not so uncommon on other platforms I'm more familiar with too. Hard to beat 'throw away'.
There are a handful of options on how to do what Sydney004 spoke of and I cannot cover them all here and now. The hope however was for an affordable complete BBK with minimal mods to produce what he was asking for. Too many mods and....and well you have a custom kit. If throw away rotors are on the menu we just need to rethink the game plan some.
And I'll openly say that if someone has what you want in this type of design already I'm not here to redesign the wheel. If the price is fair and it does what you want then we're only having a bidding war. Never the less if folks want to pursue a 13-1.25 kit here I'm all for helping.
There are a handful of options on how to do what Sydney004 spoke of and I cannot cover them all here and now. The hope however was for an affordable complete BBK with minimal mods to produce what he was asking for. Too many mods and....and well you have a custom kit. If throw away rotors are on the menu we just need to rethink the game plan some.
And I'll openly say that if someone has what you want in this type of design already I'm not here to redesign the wheel. If the price is fair and it does what you want then we're only having a bidding war. Never the less if folks want to pursue a 13-1.25 kit here I'm all for helping.
06-20-2008, 07:43 AM
#4
Melting Slicks
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Hi All,
Todd, I appreciate that you have a presence on the board and are helpful with info etc. I also appreciate that you have products to sell and as much as I don't want to take away from that, my greater priority is in the free flow of information here on the forum.
I want to ask Sid what his platform and goals are?
I was thinking tonight about the thousands of laps I turned in C4R. the best braking I had was with the C5 caliper and rotor conversion with Hawk HT10 pads or Panther (not sure which compound they were sending me) race pads because they modulated well, and most of the time my ABS would go on the fritz after a couple of laps of racing. C4R was light at sub 2800#s w 52% wt in the rear, but she also had 305/35 slicks up front and stiff (ZO7) springs and corvette challenge valved bilstiens, and all this makes a difference when the front end goes into ABS or begins to slide, but the C5 brakes brought the car down great in countless 120-130 mph front straight to hairpin, threshold brakings.
The Wilwood SL4s w 1.75" calipers, H pads and stock MC would lock or go into ABS with less then half the pedal down and I had to be really careful to go into the brakes slower not to flatspot. Going into the brakes slower means slower braking and slower lap times, as well as less brake confidence in crucial situations, and there are always crucial situations in W2W racing.
I suspect a 6 pot caliper on a heavier car with softer springs might modulate better. (Todd, good place to chime in.)
On the other hand, bigger isn't always better.
Maybe the least expensive route is to go with a C6, six pot caliper on a C5 or C6 caliper w C5 rotor on a C4, (Calipers only for $250-300 per side, C4-> C6 adapters about $100 from member Ed Miller) before going with a Wilwood kit.
You may not need a full blown kit.
I'm interested to hear what other's experience is with a BBK on a heavier car, (everybody's cars are heavier then my racecar), but less big, less sticky tires, I think, are going to ABS sooner, a softer suspension will hook up the brakes better though...
Todd, I appreciate that you have a presence on the board and are helpful with info etc. I also appreciate that you have products to sell and as much as I don't want to take away from that, my greater priority is in the free flow of information here on the forum.
I want to ask Sid what his platform and goals are?
I was thinking tonight about the thousands of laps I turned in C4R. the best braking I had was with the C5 caliper and rotor conversion with Hawk HT10 pads or Panther (not sure which compound they were sending me) race pads because they modulated well, and most of the time my ABS would go on the fritz after a couple of laps of racing. C4R was light at sub 2800#s w 52% wt in the rear, but she also had 305/35 slicks up front and stiff (ZO7) springs and corvette challenge valved bilstiens, and all this makes a difference when the front end goes into ABS or begins to slide, but the C5 brakes brought the car down great in countless 120-130 mph front straight to hairpin, threshold brakings.
The Wilwood SL4s w 1.75" calipers, H pads and stock MC would lock or go into ABS with less then half the pedal down and I had to be really careful to go into the brakes slower not to flatspot. Going into the brakes slower means slower braking and slower lap times, as well as less brake confidence in crucial situations, and there are always crucial situations in W2W racing.
I suspect a 6 pot caliper on a heavier car with softer springs might modulate better. (Todd, good place to chime in.)
On the other hand, bigger isn't always better.
Maybe the least expensive route is to go with a C6, six pot caliper on a C5 or C6 caliper w C5 rotor on a C4, (Calipers only for $250-300 per side, C4-> C6 adapters about $100 from member Ed Miller) before going with a Wilwood kit.
You may not need a full blown kit.
I'm interested to hear what other's experience is with a BBK on a heavier car, (everybody's cars are heavier then my racecar), but less big, less sticky tires, I think, are going to ABS sooner, a softer suspension will hook up the brakes better though...
Last edited by DREGSZ; 06-20-2008 at 07:51 AM.
06-20-2008, 10:12 AM
#5
Former Vendor
You'll soon find I'm not a hard-sell kinda guy. I'll offer my knowledge and experience with this supplier and pass along the best tech I can for the conversation. If I don't have what someone wants or feel what I have is ideal for you; I'll say so.
Couldn't agree more with the concept of product selection vs intended use. Street, Drag, AutoX, Open Track. Each presents a different set of potential needs. Like tires there is no one-size-fits-all in brakes either. You soon find compromise to be part of the equation.
If I may...the biggest down fall of the SL4 1.75 is simply too much piston area. Those bores combined with the Poly H pads (unless properly balanced with an equally larger rear kit) is producing a very nose heavy bias car. The 4x1.75 works out to be 4.8sq" vs only about 4.1sq" on the six pot. That reduction of 15% is huge. And yes the modulation would improve. (change out those SL1.75 for some FSL 1.625 and you'll like it)
Combining the bigger bores with the H pads means very little line pressure is required and given a single mc system is also reducing the pressure the rear brakes receive. Changing the springs or shocks can alter the rate of weight shift some but the wheelbase and Cg remain the same still.
As for the vehicle weight, that's going to be more about rotor mass than piston or caliper choice. You could stop equally well on a pizza pan or a 1.375 wide rotor using the same calipers. One time. Matching the cars weight to rotor size is tricky. More, more, more is generally good for a track car. Right up to 1.625" wide parts. But what about weight? That's a lot of mass to work and can even effect steering. And what about replacement costs?
I don't look down on those who take the disposable rotor route. Maybe heavier and don't really function quite as well as the high zoot parts...but for $60ea does it really matter? There is not always a "right" answer.
Couldn't agree more with the concept of product selection vs intended use. Street, Drag, AutoX, Open Track. Each presents a different set of potential needs. Like tires there is no one-size-fits-all in brakes either. You soon find compromise to be part of the equation.
If I may...the biggest down fall of the SL4 1.75 is simply too much piston area. Those bores combined with the Poly H pads (unless properly balanced with an equally larger rear kit) is producing a very nose heavy bias car. The 4x1.75 works out to be 4.8sq" vs only about 4.1sq" on the six pot. That reduction of 15% is huge. And yes the modulation would improve. (change out those SL1.75 for some FSL 1.625 and you'll like it)
Combining the bigger bores with the H pads means very little line pressure is required and given a single mc system is also reducing the pressure the rear brakes receive. Changing the springs or shocks can alter the rate of weight shift some but the wheelbase and Cg remain the same still.
As for the vehicle weight, that's going to be more about rotor mass than piston or caliper choice. You could stop equally well on a pizza pan or a 1.375 wide rotor using the same calipers. One time. Matching the cars weight to rotor size is tricky. More, more, more is generally good for a track car. Right up to 1.625" wide parts. But what about weight? That's a lot of mass to work and can even effect steering. And what about replacement costs?
I don't look down on those who take the disposable rotor route. Maybe heavier and don't really function quite as well as the high zoot parts...but for $60ea does it really matter? There is not always a "right" answer.
Last edited by Todd TCE; 06-20-2008 at 10:15 AM.
06-20-2008, 11:10 AM
#6
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Of course, I want my car to be just like "Big Red" maybe "Big White" in this case. Welcome back Evan, miss your presence on the board and at the track. I remember one of your memorable lock ups at at Laguna Seca a few years back. Are you moving down here again?
Anyways, the car is full weight, 3600 pounds, 292 RWHP, moving up to 18" wheels and wider R rubber soon, 1:48's at LS. I have had two brake failures at Laguna Seca in the last year and a half(same failure mode, too much heat, flimsy PBR caliper weakened and spread to such an extent that the pistons fell out! and yes I use cooling and spindle ducts and no I don't want to go 3 seconds a lap slower and brake easier) I have lost total confidence in the PBR sliding pin design, whether it is the J55, C5, C6 or whatever. I want a low cost, balanced setup with genuine race quality brakes. Stopping force has never been an issue, just reliability.
Anyways, the car is full weight, 3600 pounds, 292 RWHP, moving up to 18" wheels and wider R rubber soon, 1:48's at LS. I have had two brake failures at Laguna Seca in the last year and a half(same failure mode, too much heat, flimsy PBR caliper weakened and spread to such an extent that the pistons fell out! and yes I use cooling and spindle ducts and no I don't want to go 3 seconds a lap slower and brake easier) I have lost total confidence in the PBR sliding pin design, whether it is the J55, C5, C6 or whatever. I want a low cost, balanced setup with genuine race quality brakes. Stopping force has never been an issue, just reliability.
06-20-2008, 03:39 PM
#7
Melting Slicks
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Big red Was 1:43.04 with the little motor and C5 calipers at Laguna before they made the track faster with the moto GP changes.
I'm not moving back down in the for seeable future, but I really miss the weather and Laguna Seca and the surf.
Todd makes a really good explaination as to why I was unhappy with my SL4s. Maybe the SL6s are a good way to go for you. They probably cost about the same for the calipers as C6 6 pots.
Thanks
Evan
I'm not moving back down in the for seeable future, but I really miss the weather and Laguna Seca and the surf.
Todd makes a really good explaination as to why I was unhappy with my SL4s. Maybe the SL6s are a good way to go for you. They probably cost about the same for the calipers as C6 6 pots.
Thanks
Evan
06-21-2008, 07:55 AM
#8
Pro
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Todd, would it be possible for you to reccomend a setup for rear brakes on my C4 track car project? i'll be using willwood GNIII calipers in front but I don't know what to go with in back. Also can you get GNIII calipers because I need a set!
06-21-2008, 11:43 AM
#9
Former Vendor
First the easy part: sure I can do the GNII caliper for you. And because I don't stock the GNIII can bring it through me/to you to save the instate sales tax if it were to be drop shipped.
Now the more difficult part: I'm sure we can do a rear kit of some sort however I am assuming you're looking for a departure from oem type set ups and moving to something more like 12-13" rotors and proper FSL calipers and pads. And given the proposed GNIII fronts we can assume basic finishes- function over form if you will.
I'd need to know what rotor size you plan for the front and any thoughts you have for the rear- same rotors for ease of maintenance for example. Not necessary but it could be done that way.
Now the bigger issue: you do understand that the GNIII will require you make significant changes to the Master Cylinder correct? Or run dual cylinders. And that the rear design will be based upon this front caliper also- no going back to an FSL later with far less piston area. Lastly this caliper takes up a lot of room behind the wheel over other options.
Send me some pm's or email and I'll be happy to get you started.
Now the more difficult part: I'm sure we can do a rear kit of some sort however I am assuming you're looking for a departure from oem type set ups and moving to something more like 12-13" rotors and proper FSL calipers and pads. And given the proposed GNIII fronts we can assume basic finishes- function over form if you will.
I'd need to know what rotor size you plan for the front and any thoughts you have for the rear- same rotors for ease of maintenance for example. Not necessary but it could be done that way.
Now the bigger issue: you do understand that the GNIII will require you make significant changes to the Master Cylinder correct? Or run dual cylinders. And that the rear design will be based upon this front caliper also- no going back to an FSL later with far less piston area. Lastly this caliper takes up a lot of room behind the wheel over other options.
Send me some pm's or email and I'll be happy to get you started.
