Does anyone use a reverse rotation water pump for the track?
09-19-2010, 09:34 AM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Does anyone use a reverse rotation water pump for the track?
Ive been having cooling issues this season.. Ive flushed the coolant, checked the hoses, put water wetter in, have a dewitts radiator, and spal fans, replaced and fixed front air dam, cleaned out radiator and all the crap and STILL the car over heats at the track.. especially on the Glen...in exactly 20 minutes...
Im thinking it might be the water pump slowly failing, but when the car is driving on the highway with the proper level of coolant it never overheats, just at the track... granted it has been pretty hot, so the cooler weather is coming and it wont overheat as much... I mean i have to run with the heater on so the car takes longer to overheat, then its into the pits..
has anyone had this problem, and was it the water pump? what water pump would you recommend to fix this issue? a few guys at the track have said that I need a reverse rotation pump because the coolant is not circulating fast enough to cool the car...
thanks
Im thinking it might be the water pump slowly failing, but when the car is driving on the highway with the proper level of coolant it never overheats, just at the track... granted it has been pretty hot, so the cooler weather is coming and it wont overheat as much... I mean i have to run with the heater on so the car takes longer to overheat, then its into the pits..
has anyone had this problem, and was it the water pump? what water pump would you recommend to fix this issue? a few guys at the track have said that I need a reverse rotation pump because the coolant is not circulating fast enough to cool the car...
thanks
09-19-2010, 09:58 AM
#2
Melting Slicks
Firstly, if your car is stock motor w/ those cooling mods, something is wrong. A stock motor w/ a dewitts rad and water wetter should not overheat on the track. You might be on the right track w/ your water pump, but I wouldn't worry about any reverse rotation pump ( I actually have no idea how that would make any fluid flow faster).
Is this a new issue? Or something that has been creeping up?
Has the car ever been able to run on track w/o overheating?
any signs of oil in your coolant or coolant in your oil?
What are your oil temps on track?
Is this a new issue? Or something that has been creeping up?
Has the car ever been able to run on track w/o overheating?
any signs of oil in your coolant or coolant in your oil?
What are your oil temps on track?
09-19-2010, 04:14 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Firstly, if your car is stock motor w/ those cooling mods, something is wrong. A stock motor w/ a dewitts rad and water wetter should not overheat on the track. You might be on the right track w/ your water pump, but I wouldn't worry about any reverse rotation pump ( I actually have no idea how that would make any fluid flow faster).
Is this a new issue? Or something that has been creeping up?
Has the car ever been able to run on track w/o overheating?
any signs of oil in your coolant or coolant in your oil?
What are your oil temps on track?
Is this a new issue? Or something that has been creeping up?
Has the car ever been able to run on track w/o overheating?
any signs of oil in your coolant or coolant in your oil?
What are your oil temps on track?
my oil temps with oil cooler can reach 260's the most, depends on the track and the weather temps..
so you think it could be the water pump failing? it works fine on the street/highway.. this is really bugging me.. should I get a meziere(spelling?) electric pump to replace stock or just replace the stock unit...
09-19-2010, 04:16 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
09-20-2010, 01:18 AM
#7
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Although it will only help a little have you taped the center of the front air dam so it won't bend backwards at high speed? It is designed to flip backwards if it hits an obstruction but once speeds go over 100 the air pressure can push it back thus reducing air flow through the cooling system.
Do you have an air bubble in your cooling system and have you checked your radiator cap to see if it is holding the proper pressure? Are the extra coolers in the front blocking air flow through the radiator? Probably the reason the problem doesn't show up on the highway is the heat being produced by the engine is much less and the cooling system has plenty of capacity to cool that level of heat. Once you start running at WOT the energy production of the engine increases drastically and that is when you don't have enough cooling capacity.
By definition reverse rotation water pumps turn in the oposite direction of the crankshaft and are typically used with surpentine belts. The back (smooth) side of the belt is routed around the water pump pulley, thereby rotating it in the oposite direction of the crankshaft.
Standard rotation water pumps turn in the same direction as the crankshaft and are typically used with V-Belts.
Turning a water pump in the wrong direction will cause overheating.
Edelbrock advertises they have both standard and reverse rotation pumps for the LS engine. By the definition above your stock pump should be a reverse rotation pump since it is driven by a serpentine belt. By any chance has the pump been changed to a standard rotation pump?
Bill
Do you have an air bubble in your cooling system and have you checked your radiator cap to see if it is holding the proper pressure? Are the extra coolers in the front blocking air flow through the radiator? Probably the reason the problem doesn't show up on the highway is the heat being produced by the engine is much less and the cooling system has plenty of capacity to cool that level of heat. Once you start running at WOT the energy production of the engine increases drastically and that is when you don't have enough cooling capacity.
By definition reverse rotation water pumps turn in the oposite direction of the crankshaft and are typically used with surpentine belts. The back (smooth) side of the belt is routed around the water pump pulley, thereby rotating it in the oposite direction of the crankshaft.
Standard rotation water pumps turn in the same direction as the crankshaft and are typically used with V-Belts.
Turning a water pump in the wrong direction will cause overheating.
Edelbrock advertises they have both standard and reverse rotation pumps for the LS engine. By the definition above your stock pump should be a reverse rotation pump since it is driven by a serpentine belt. By any chance has the pump been changed to a standard rotation pump?
Bill
09-20-2010, 11:00 AM
#8
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Although it will only help a little have you taped the center of the front air dam so it won't bend backwards at high speed? It is designed to flip backwards if it hits an obstruction but once speeds go over 100 the air pressure can push it back thus reducing air flow through the cooling system.
Bill
Bill
09-20-2010, 12:05 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Although it will only help a little have you taped the center of the front air dam so it won't bend backwards at high speed? MY FRONT AIR DAMN IS FINE It is designed to flip backwards if it hits an obstruction but once speeds go over 100 the air pressure can push it back thus reducing air flow through the cooling system.
Do you have an air bubble in your cooling system and have you checked your radiator cap to see if it is holding the proper pressure? NO BUBBLES IN SYSTEM, CAP AT PROPER PRESSURE Are the extra coolers in the front blocking air flow through the radiator? YES SOMEWHAT Probably the reason the problem doesn't show up on the highway is the heat being produced by the engine is much less and the cooling system has plenty of capacity to cool that level of heat. Once you start running at WOT the energy production of the engine increases drastically and that is when you don't have enough cooling capacity.
By definition reverse rotation water pumps turn in the oposite direction of the crankshaft and are typically used with surpentine belts. The back (smooth) side of the belt is routed around the water pump pulley, thereby rotating it in the oposite direction of the crankshaft.
Standard rotation water pumps turn in the same direction as the crankshaft and are typically used with V-Belts.
Turning a water pump in the wrong direction will cause overheating.
Edelbrock advertises they have both standard and reverse rotation pumps for the LS engine. By the definition above your stock pump should be a reverse rotation pump since it is driven by a serpentine belt. By any chance has the pump been changed to a standard rotation pump? NO THE PUMP IS STOCK
Bill
Do you have an air bubble in your cooling system and have you checked your radiator cap to see if it is holding the proper pressure? NO BUBBLES IN SYSTEM, CAP AT PROPER PRESSURE Are the extra coolers in the front blocking air flow through the radiator? YES SOMEWHAT Probably the reason the problem doesn't show up on the highway is the heat being produced by the engine is much less and the cooling system has plenty of capacity to cool that level of heat. Once you start running at WOT the energy production of the engine increases drastically and that is when you don't have enough cooling capacity.
By definition reverse rotation water pumps turn in the oposite direction of the crankshaft and are typically used with surpentine belts. The back (smooth) side of the belt is routed around the water pump pulley, thereby rotating it in the oposite direction of the crankshaft.
Standard rotation water pumps turn in the same direction as the crankshaft and are typically used with V-Belts.
Turning a water pump in the wrong direction will cause overheating.
Edelbrock advertises they have both standard and reverse rotation pumps for the LS engine. By the definition above your stock pump should be a reverse rotation pump since it is driven by a serpentine belt. By any chance has the pump been changed to a standard rotation pump? NO THE PUMP IS STOCK
Bill
and hope that works.
09-20-2010, 01:26 PM
#10
Le Mans Master
Race engines have restrictors in place of thermostats to slow the water flow down. You do not want the water moving too fast or it will not cool properly. My first move would be to change hoses and look into all of the holes and parts.
Jim
Jim
09-20-2010, 03:25 PM
#11
Le Mans Master
I fought the same problem in my C5 for a couple of years. I blew out the radiator with a long wand every time I went to the track. I drilled holes in the T-Stat, tightened the shroud, kept the air dam straight and nothing seemed to help, it still ran 230* during races on hot days.
Finally I took the radiator out, and found the top of the radiator was about plugged with sand and debris. I had a radiator guy boil it out and it works fantastically now. In addition, I plugged most every hole in the shroud I could find, and tightened every air leak I could find.
I raced this weekend in Savannah and the temps were in the mid-90's and the coolant never got about 210*. At Road Atlanta in August during 90+ degrees it never got about 217*.
I'm extremely pleased now with the temps. One less thing to worry about during the race.
Now I clean out the top of the radiator after every weekend. I don't want it plugged, again.
Finally I took the radiator out, and found the top of the radiator was about plugged with sand and debris. I had a radiator guy boil it out and it works fantastically now. In addition, I plugged most every hole in the shroud I could find, and tightened every air leak I could find.
I raced this weekend in Savannah and the temps were in the mid-90's and the coolant never got about 210*. At Road Atlanta in August during 90+ degrees it never got about 217*.
I'm extremely pleased now with the temps. One less thing to worry about during the race.
Now I clean out the top of the radiator after every weekend. I don't want it plugged, again.
Last edited by Falcon; 09-20-2010 at 03:31 PM.
09-20-2010, 04:13 PM
#12
Le Mans Master
I fought the same problem in my C5 for a couple of years. I blew out the radiator with a long wand every time I went to the track. I drilled holes in the T-Stat, tightened the shroud, kept the air dam straight and nothing seemed to help, it still ran 230* during races on hot days.
Finally I took the radiator out, and found the top of the radiator was about plugged with sand and debris. I had a radiator guy boil it out and it works fantastically now. In addition, I plugged most every hole in the shroud I could find, and tightened every air leak I could find.
I raced this weekend in Savannah and the temps were in the mid-90's and the coolant never got about 210*. At Road Atlanta in August during 90+ degrees it never got about 217*.
I'm extremely pleased now with the temps. One less thing to worry about during the race.
Now I clean out the top of the radiator after every weekend. I don't want it plugged, again.
Finally I took the radiator out, and found the top of the radiator was about plugged with sand and debris. I had a radiator guy boil it out and it works fantastically now. In addition, I plugged most every hole in the shroud I could find, and tightened every air leak I could find.
I raced this weekend in Savannah and the temps were in the mid-90's and the coolant never got about 210*. At Road Atlanta in August during 90+ degrees it never got about 217*.
I'm extremely pleased now with the temps. One less thing to worry about during the race.
Now I clean out the top of the radiator after every weekend. I don't want it plugged, again.
Jim
09-20-2010, 05:17 PM
#13
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?? Same amount of water is in the radiator at any given time, with the same convection coefficient. I don't see how someone can have "to much flow." Granted, you could have a pump that pumps more water than needed (and therefore wastes power). However, if you have a given pump, I don't see a need to restrict it.
09-20-2010, 05:55 PM
#14
Melting Slicks
?? Same amount of water is in the radiator at any given time, with the same convection coefficient. I don't see how someone can have "to much flow." Granted, you could have a pump that pumps more water than needed (and therefore wastes power). However, if you have a given pump, I don't see a need to restrict it.
You definitely can have too much flow.
09-20-2010, 05:57 PM
#15
Melting Slicks
Concentrating air flow into the radiator and keeping it clean makes all the difference in the world. When I ran Savannah and Road Atlanta we had to do the same thing to our radiators. In fact, we had several radiators and my daughters earned extra $$ cleaning the radiators and straightening the fins.
Jim
Jim
1- 100 degree day, w/o completely sealed off shroud, coolant temps up to 270 (ruined my race)
2- 110 degree day, after completely sealing of shrouds, coolant temp no higher than 220.
09-20-2010, 06:15 PM
#16
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
The other thing could be that the radiator is just worn out. I know it sounds odd, but the race cars will wear out the radiator in a season if not go through a couple a year.
Depends on the length of time on track but they will wear out.
Bits of bugs, rubber, dirt, dust and other bits just get stuck in the fins or they bend the fins in and it just takes its toll on them. In some cases they get crap built up inside the tubes and it can't flow like it used to.
Not saying for sure that is what it is...but it sounds like you have covered about everything else. Given it isn't make a ton of power more than stock and everthing else is working, it might be time for a new unit.
Depends on the length of time on track but they will wear out.
Bits of bugs, rubber, dirt, dust and other bits just get stuck in the fins or they bend the fins in and it just takes its toll on them. In some cases they get crap built up inside the tubes and it can't flow like it used to.
Not saying for sure that is what it is...but it sounds like you have covered about everything else. Given it isn't make a ton of power more than stock and everthing else is working, it might be time for a new unit.
09-20-2010, 06:48 PM
#17
Drifting
have a look between your rad and condenser.....you'll be shocked at the junk in there!
I replaced my rad, thermostat etc. etc. and saw the biggest improvement when I replaced my condenser.
I replaced my rad, thermostat etc. etc. and saw the biggest improvement when I replaced my condenser.
09-20-2010, 07:03 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
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Hate to disagree with Wally. But, the coolant system is a balanced closed loop. The time the coolant spends in the radiator or in the engine for the most part does not matter. What counts is the BTUs that are transferred. So if the water moves fast then less heat is transferred to the water but more water volume moves through in any given period. so the net is that it is the same.
However faster movement (again within reason) improves the heat transfer in the radiator.
See this thread with some real science and a few non-science doubters.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...pm-rating.html
Faster is not always better but most of the time it is.
However faster movement (again within reason) improves the heat transfer in the radiator.
See this thread with some real science and a few non-science doubters.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...pm-rating.html
Faster is not always better but most of the time it is.
09-20-2010, 07:33 PM
#19
Drifting
I had EXACTLY the same symptoms as you have. After fighting it for months I used a NAPA Combustion leak detector and it turned out I had leaking head gaskets. 3 cyl. total. This did not show up in my Oil Analysis. No trace of oil in my coolant.
I'm sure it's a long shot but I wanted to mention it.
http://www.lislecorp.com/divisions/p...s/?product=406
Good luck
I'm sure it's a long shot but I wanted to mention it.
http://www.lislecorp.com/divisions/p...s/?product=406
Good luck
Last edited by johninar; 09-20-2010 at 10:47 PM.
09-20-2010, 07:36 PM
#20
Melting Slicks
Hate to disagree with Wally. But, the coolant system is a balanced closed loop. The time the coolant spends in the radiator or in the engine for the most part does not matter. What counts is the BTUs that are transferred. So if the water moves fast then less heat is transferred to the water but more water volume moves through in any given period. so the net is that it is the same.
However faster movement (again within reason) improves the heat transfer in the radiator.
See this thread with some real science and a few non-science doubters.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...pm-rating.html
Faster is not always better but most of the time it is.
However faster movement (again within reason) improves the heat transfer in the radiator.
See this thread with some real science and a few non-science doubters.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...pm-rating.html
Faster is not always better but most of the time it is.
I can dig it. I just want to emphasize that in this guys situation an uprated water pump is not the solution. He should have no problem cooling a stock motor w/ a stock pump and a dewitts.
I had EXACTLY the same symptoms as you have. After fighting it for months I used a NAPA exhaust leak detector and it turned out I had leaking head gaskets. 3 cyl. total. This did not show up in my Oil Analysis. No trace of oil in my coolant.
I'm sure it's a long shot but I wanted to mention it.
Good luck
I'm sure it's a long shot but I wanted to mention it.
Good luck