Hercules Rockefeller

So, I was just wondering, what happens if you collide with another car while driving in an HPDE? If you hit another car anywhere else, either on a public road or private road, you are required to carry insurance, and if you are found at fault, the other driver can make a claim against your insurance and your premiums go up. So why can't the other driver try to do this to you when you're on the track. The track, legally speaking, is a private roadway, so what's to stop them?

sperkins

99.9% of ins companies state that your coverage ceases to exist once your car is on top of any surface that was intended for racing of any type. I seriously doubt that one ins company will try to sue another ins company for damages that happen during an event. Everyone is on their own to work it out between themselves (IMO) if something like that were to happen.

Hercules Rockefeller

Yeah, that's what I've been told and that's what I've always assumed. I guess my question is, when it comes to state governments and their insurance/liability laws, is there some exception for cars running on tracks. I know that if I hit somebody on private property (at least here in CA) that I'm still required to have insurance with liability coverage. So I'd think that there would be a specific need for the law to state that such coverage is specifically not needed when driving a car (licensed for use on the road) on a racetrack.

Han Solo

Sign the waiver and assume the risk or don't drive. If you are worried about it buy HPDE insurance for your car.

Hercules Rockefeller

I always sign the waiver, and I don't want insurance... I just want to know if you can have an "at fault" accident with another car on the track, legally speaking.

johninar

yes, anyone can sue you. It's up to a court what happens.

Hercules Rockefeller

Sure anyone can sue you for anything they want. But if you refuse to provide insurance information to the other party, can the govenment prosecute you or charge you with "leaving the scene of an accident" or "hit and run"?

froggy47

I don't think so. The waiver EVERY driver signs (usually - they vary) says every participant waives their legal rights to sue everyone else.

I looked into it a little regarding when I instruct & especially when I drive a student car (which is often for BMWCCA autox).

OF COURSE there are drivers & lawyers that will want to sue if you wreck.

The first thing I would do would be get a copy of the signed waiver.

It's the first line of defense & don't trust that it'll be available later on.

I think it would be very extraordinary for DMV to be involved. Or for that matter either of the parties insurance.

A personal civil court matter, sure, that's why a copy of the waiver is gold.

In hpde it should be RARE for car to car incident to happen, going off is a different story (single car accident).

IMO

Sidney004

We live in a very litigious society; having a signed a waiver of liability by the other drivers is a valuable document to have but it can't prevent you from being sued by the other driver or your passenger if you crash. Even if you crash(or are crashed into) by someone that believes in the code "assume the risk or don't drive" their heirs' might not see things in the same light(see below.) The purpose of insurance is to transfer the financial risk for liability(bodily and property) if you get into a wreck on a racetrack, there is no liability coverage for you as a driver. The organizers and the track carry liability coverage and will be the prime target of the suit. Every lawsuit always claims gross negligence FWIW.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/co...608_466074.htm
This is how it was settled:
http://www.sportscarmarket.com/colum...or-4-5-million
Note that the driver's estate and the Ferrari driver settled, it didn't state whether they had insurance coverage that indemnified them.

This is an example of the waiver of liability you sign:
http://www.bmwpugetsound.com/forms/insurancewaiver.pdf

doveboat

Think of all the "track only" cars (T1 Corvettes as an example) that are not street legal / registered and therefore are not carrying any insurance for liability or damage.

IMO once on a track you are on your own regarding Insurance. I would expect that any injury claims would be part of your health coverage vs Auto Medical.

Now, if another driver intentionally hits you I would then think you could bring a claim / charges of some sort.

Ed

cebars

Hpde is for collision....Lockton/Affinity Only pays for damage to your car.

More important is liability insurance to cover suit for property damage or death or injury to another. I'm not sure of the extent of the coverage but I understand that some sanctioning bodies provide liability coverage for participants. K&K has a policy of only writing policies if the premium is at least $5,000 so you have to do quite a few events to make that reasonable on a per event basis.

Sidney004

Your health insurance will absolutely cover any medical expenses that you incur as a result of injuries in an accident.

Dirty Howie

Who you planning on taking out with your new bumper


DH

VGLNTE1

If i was racing and got hit, id pay for it. If your worried, dont race. I think this new generation of legal battles is rediculous.
Reminds me of the lady who got millions from spilling hot coffee on herself

rfn026

If you can't afford to drive you car off a cliff you shouldn't be on the track with it.

Richard Newton
Newton's Laws

AU N EGL

you may wish to look at your policy and READ the disclosures. Most likely it will be what is NOT printed. If you dont read it in the disclosures, ie not covered on roads designed for timing or racing. There is no coverage.

Most events and tracks use the SCCA waiver, which states you or your heirs WILL NOT Litigate for any reason what so ever..

Then there was the court ruling mentioned above.

Also if there is a car to car incident, the even master could and does get the two parties together, to talk it out and make a gentlemen agreement as to whom pays for what?

If you have an incident with tracks tire wall or amco, get your check book out as you will write a check to the track before they allow you to leave the grounds.

Motorsports is about personal responsibility. You are responsible for your actions.

many states have equine laws



Motorsports activities may be similar

johninar

You are referring to a criminal act. I am referring to a civil case.
Two very different things.

Look at the settlement of the GT3 DE crash in california. Wifey got a big settlement, and there WAS a release signed by the student.

Anything can happen.

fatbillybob

I have spent a lot of time with this because the problem is not loss of a car which is cheap it is the potential liability for a death like the Carrara gt issue at Fontana. Google it. I have been the recipient of two smashed cars. On that end you put car on track you each fix your own. Liability... you got a waiver a thin veil that failed the Ferrari driver and Porsche and the track in the Carrara gt insident. Few organizations have a good enough policy to protect your personal liability. SCCA is the only group I know of that specifically in their annually updated gcr provides liability insurance for participants as additional insurers up to 5 million dollars. You cannot buy this as an individual. Your personal excess liability umbrella will exclude on track incidents if you read the fine print. I have looked into many of those. SCCA also happens to be the only club I know of who has mandated in their gcr trackside advanced cardiac life support and two workers per corner station with every corner station manned.

ZedO6

These links are a must read for anyone engaged in track activities, and a sobering reality check as to what can happen in a court of law. Negligence vs. gross negligence as determined by the court can invalidate a release. Signing a release doesn't guarantee a thing. The division of liability for the settlement payout is particularly interesting. Thanks for posting.

matteo

I can't understand why anyone would take their street car onto a race track and not purchase "on track" insurance if it's available. S--- happens and it's just part of the cost of what we do.
As an instructor I also have increased my liability insurance to 2 million (and not sure if that's enough) personal Liability ins. is pretty cheap also .
I do many Canadian HPDE events and unfortunately "on track" ins. is not available in Canada. It's a very hazy line in Canada regarding whether or not the vehicle is insured while in a "driving school". I've never had a colision damage incident but did have a car catch fire and burn while on a racetrack - but not in a race. The ins. co. finally settled but it took a long time and not for the total amount.