JEPopp

I've been running hpde now for several years. My skills have improved to the point where I'd like to try stiffer sway bars.

apex26

There are guys on here with much more experience, so it will be interesting to hear from them. I rode with a very accomplished engineer instructor who had a mostly stock C5 Z06, but he had added T1 bars. He added them because his car had no feel in the esses at Watkins Glen. My first ride was with crappy street tires he jokingly called his "mud and snows", and my next ride was on slicks. The car was wonderfully neutral both times. With that experience, I found a deal on a new set of T1 bars for my C5Z, and just installed them last fall, after the season. Just on the street, it feels the same--except much more flat and planted. The rear bars have 3 holes, so I'm not the slightest concerned, because there is massive adjustability. I run Michelins, Nitto NTO1's, and am transitioning to Hoosiers. Another instructor engineer friend with a C5Z says "everybody who has them loves them".

sccaGT1racer

The GS have a soft front spring so a larger front bar is going to help. The LG motorsports bars are close to the t1 bars at less cost. Sam strano has a 35 mm front bar that will also help if your not wanting to spend a lot of money.
If your not worried about class rules or cash you should change to delrin bushings, coil overs ,and sway bars as a package.

JEPopp

I'm not inclined to go all the way to coil overs at this time. It sounds like you haven't heard of any problems with T1 bars and push on stock tire sizes (non-Hoosier or pure racing slick).

rabrooks

T1's are good. You want to go around the corner as flat as you can in most cases. These bars help with that.
Push has everything to do with setup. The bars may introduce some push if the alignment is not right. Get the alignment right and hang on cause it turns.

Rx7Rob

I have them on my 2000 Z51 and love them.

bigmackloud

In the past I've read complaints that the T1 bars are brutal on the street? Any feedback on that? I've got a C5 and went with the C6Z/Z51 bars but I keep thinking I should have done more.

Quickshift_C5

It's going to be entirely subjective, but brutal is one hell of a stretch. My C5Z with T1 bars and DRM shocks hardly rides any different than stock. It's a slightly firmer ride, and the bumps are a bit "sharper" in feeling, but it feels well damped and is absolutely comfortable. I'm confident whatever small difference I'm feeling is from the DRM shocks.

In other words, those T1 sway bars hardly made any difference whatsoever in ride quality on the street. This is on sub-par Iowa and Illinois roads that see their share of extreme hot/cold cycles and salt. I read the same comments and decided to take the plunge, then couldn't figure out what the heck people were complaining about.

UstaB-GS549

FWIW my C5 Z06 has T1 bars on it without any other suspension mods other than a track alignment. It's my summertime DD and weekend track car. The rear bar is has the end link in the middle hole.

Handling seems neutral with Hoosier or Kumho scrubs at BFR, ABCC, Gingerman & RA. I'm pretty conservative with my street driving so all I can say is that it is flat in any corner.

The bars help with wear on outside edge of front tires especially A6.

The end links are really noisy on the street. It does not bother me, but my wife refuses to ride in the car. Some guys have no noise with same GM end links which might have something to do with pre-loading or hole size in control arms.

I would imagine you could adjust rear bar in different holes to get different handling characteristics to suit your tires and driving style.

Tim Dorsch

I have a 2002 C5 Z i use primarily for HPDE and nice weekend cruising. I installed GM T1 bars with adjustable end links.....BIG improvement. I also had Danny Popp give it a street / track alignment and corner weight it.
It handles great and I have not noticed any noise from the end links.

the next step was Delrin bushings...it was a bit of a project but they were a significant improvement. It's reasonable on the street and amazing on track.

Randy Pobst drove the car at NCM and was very complimentary
of the cars handling. I considered coil overs but for what i'm doing (having fun) I just don't think they're worth the cash.

apex26

That's valuable confirmation-T1 bars can work well enough with stock shocks and springs that Randy Pobst likes the car. I think I saw your video? I've got bushings on order because getting excessive distortion with the stock bushings even before the T1 bars.

froggy47

You have "heard" wrong, they are fine and very adjustable (rear).

SunnydayDILYSI

They provide a correction to the intentionally engineered understeer (push). You'll be more balanced mid corner, but be ready to have oversteer after apex. They will make the ride a bit more stiff and (depending on endlinks used) could create additional road noise.

steel_3d

Can the stock endlinks handle stiff swaybars? If not, what are the quietest endlinks that would also work on the street? I'm about to put the Strano bars on.

sccaGT1racer

You can run the factory endlinks with no issues.

strano@stranoparts.com

I never really understood why they went so mad on T1 bar sizing. Bars do a few things. Do they cut roll? Yes. In doing so the outside tire has to carry more load/inside tire does less.

T1's are HUGE. Front bar is 38.1mm, which is stiffer than a solid hunk of 1-3/8" steel like my biggest front bar. Most everyone who has run both has gone back to my solid bar (note this is mostly Grand Sport specific with the softer front spring vs. a Z06 where we use a just over 33mm bar. We are using the roll stiffness from the bar to help make up missing wheel rate on the GS's from the softer front spring.

Here is what played out on a GS in running a T1 vs a Strano 8530 35mm solid bar: On 35mm solid, car on Hoosier A6/A7, full comp. alignment (more grip than on normal street tires or with a stock alignment) can pull inside rear off the ground in trail braking, and spin RR under accel. In trying to solve that issue, and because the rules in AS or SSR do not allow a spring change a T1 bar was put on. On one run, with the front tires not hot, etc. the car was fine. Power down on R-comps was better on high grip surfaces. However, and this was the problem. 2nd runs on, worse with 2 drivers and worse yet on hot days, the front end just stopped working. The bar was just too much for the front tires to handle and understeer on hot tires was the result.

There has always been a great debate between big springs and little bars (or no bars at the extreme) and little springs and big bars. T1 being the extreme there.

Like most of real life, extremes are just that. Extreme. Doesn't mean they can't "work" but also doesn't mean you can't do better. And other things play in. I think it's pretty clear T1 bars are just too much. But in my business I know a lot of folks think bigger is better which is certainly not always true.

For me, a suspension is a system of things working together. Springs, bars, tires, wheels, alignment being the big ones and how those fit together. If you want the flattest car you can get, don't want to invest in springs at all, and think that better shocks don't help? Ok then I might say T1's would be for you. But I prefer to do things more systematically.

Shock rebound damping, that controls the roll rate. Not the amount of roll but how fast the car generates the roll. Change that and you often get folks saying how it doesn't roll anymore. It is, but the rate is slowed down to the point that the car is much more responsive and less wallowy. Add that to some more bar which then cuts the amount of roll too, and you are really getting somewhere. If you don't go crazy. You can also stiffen the car in both ride and roll with spring change (leaf or coil-over). By the time you get to improving all three things, T1 bars have long since become overkill IMHO in almost all instances.

See also how I don't just run one bar on all cars. I've made 4 different front bars depending on what car, what suspension, what use, etc. And what I run/ran on my GS is very different than on my Z06. Most cars that aren't radically different from stock are running one particular bar (#8472).

Also remember that widebody C6's have a big rear bar already @ 28mm and change. So to not really change that much (and it can be too much most notably with stock front bars) with a T1 rear, then slam a giant T1 on the front, is going to make the car feel more "stable". Because the stock stuff is out of balance to begin with, and the T1 is overshooting the mark. Push is stable and that's what you tend to get with T1 stuff more so than with other things. Some bar setups are very loose. Again, I want neither thing, I want balance. But situations change balance. Take a set of X tire off and put Z tires on, can be the same size, matched set, etc. Balance can go to hell.

Mordeth

Hi Sam,

Thank you for that information. I sent you a PM.

Anthony

mikeCsix

Lots of good comments, but what perspective are they aimed towards: Autocross applications or hpde?

I too drive a GS and agree completely about tire changes and situational events, even tire pressure changes can make a difference in balance in the turns, along with heat cycling.

In trying to balance my car, I took a slightly different direction and went with the JOC package, shocks and bars. The bars are not as aggressive as the T-1, but is biased the same as the T-1 front - rear. Both are adjustable which is what I really wanted. I do hpde events on street tires, Michelin PSS's for now, and wanted some adjustability to help bring balance to corner exit oversteer I'd been experiencing after the tires have been heat cycled at several previous events. Other factors: greasing the bar bushings, changing the bar bushings to poly, adjusting the bar bushing tension using flat washers under the mounts.

I also had the alignment changed (since the shocks were replaced) to a slight toe out in front which may help autocross as turn-in is very quick - too quick for me. It seemed to make the car a bit more difficult to control under high speed and high acceleration. I've since changed the alignment to 0 toe front and slightly toe-in for the rear which felt much better, but have yet to get on a track to see what the JOC bars accomplished! Frustrating, but my circumstances had changed that has kept me off the track. I hope to get back to it this summer.

romandian

adjustable joc front bar? i just talked to afe and they dont know about them. where did you get it? the fancy pfadt bar seems to be the only adjustable one.

mikeCsix

The rear bar is adjustable, not the front. The newer T-1 bars are also adjustable (rear only). The size of the bar isn't the only criteria, tire size, type, compound, and age are also factors and are the larger determinant to traction.