emccomas

OK, so another off the wall question...

Did the 1966 engine code "IK" really exist in the wild, or has it only been seen in captivity?

That is my cute way of asking if the 1966 427 / 425 hp IK engine code was actually stamped by the engine assembly plant. Or is "IP" code all there ever was for this engine.

Some say IP is 427 / 450hp (early 66), and IK is 427 / 425hp (later cars). Others say no change between IP and IK, so what was the need for IK.

I say, don't have a clue, that is why I am asking.

What say you?

JohnZ

As I recall, Engineering assigned the "IK" suffix to be used on the "H.D." 427 engine with the lightweight 153-tooth flywheel (used on the '65 L-78 and, later, on the L-88), but Tonawanda production records show none were built. However, under ECR #68907 and CEC Build Work Order #19450, we know two of these special "H.D." engines were built at the CEC Motor Room, one of which was shipped to St. Louis.

emccomas

Many thanks John.

Dr L-88

I just wonder if that "one" found its way into the Roger Penske red 66 that Dick Guldstrand picked up at the plant and drove to Penske's shop in PA?

TCracingCA

They would have been checking those engines more carefully!

So one option is Penske had a IP stamped HD engine but with painted aluminum heads. And maybe an IK went out to Yenko for Sebring when they the FIA gets a little relaxed, and then maybe later in the season and the second one with IK ended up going in the Grand Sport #10 because it was called an L-88 by the Team. Then I think the first IT went into the Summers car that has paperwork, that went to Yenko later on! Or maybe Yenko 1966 Sebring car had an IP HD engine also, and IK that didn't ship out stayed for development or ended up on a dolly for show!

the second option was that naturally the IP was listed on the FIA, but they made amendments and maybe by the first race, they had submitted the IK evolution to the FIA so it was Official to race, but I can't find any such in the FIA submissions! If that was the case, then both the Penske and Yenko cars maybe got IK engines. But then what was in that Grand Sport? And because both the Penske and Yenko cars finished races, I doubt those were the L-88's that were successful in 1966, because they would have broken. The engine pulled out of the Penske car prior to the daytona race and not put back in for Sebring, opens up the probable last scenario!

All interesting. Yes I have two IK engines built by CEC also. I have that!!! That is where I have in the other threads been insistent on two IK's and at least 1 IT, but here is the last scenario to think on------- Penske pulled the engine that was in the car when it was picked up at the factory after that Daytona practice test! I would think that it would go back to CEC! to get evaluated and repaired/revisions, or whatever! I would think that it would come back to Penske, and maybe that went into the Grand Sport #10 (an IK) for Sebring. The Penske #9 raced with the Traco HD unit and the Yenko with its HD engine. If you think about things, the IK wasn't legal for the race at Daytona or Sebring in the production FIA, so the race mill had to be in place for qualifying and the subsequent Daytona race and then for Sebring they needed to stay legal. So the second IK stayed at Chevrolet Engineering, because only two were ever assembled. I bet the IK was in the Penske car, tested in practice and pulled and sent back (the one sent to St. Louis) and the other stayed with engineering (CEC)! I think I just said the same thing twice!!!! That is why the Penske and Yenko cars finished the races, that they finished. It makes sense that CEC would want a test run and then to check how the IK was doing! then when it went back to Penske, they could legally run it in the Prototype car- the Grand Sport #10! I think this is the 1966 IK L-88 history!

So conclusion!
One IK delivered in the Penske car, tested in practice at Daytona and was pulled, and needed to come out prior to race qualification/the race, because it wasn't FIA legal, sent back to CEC for evaluation, then it went back to Team Penske prior to Sebring and was installed in the GS #10 for a run in prototype class, because that was legal! That's it! Makes sense! Write the book! and the Penske and Yenko cars kept GT class homologated 1966 HD engines! The second IK stayed at CEC and some Janitor has it and it will be found in his basement in 2020, 5 years from now! We are done!:fl ag:

TCracingCA

Opinion!

TCracingCA

yenko got mad that Penske got an IK and he didn't, so CEC fixed that and he officially got technically the very first L88 (IT 1966) to play with, that was to go to his customer. Penske then complained and he was relegated to Camaro duty and mouse 302's and small block Lola T-70's! Thus serves him right, for complaining , and Yenko got to put the first 1967 L88 on the track! And became the 427 guy with COPO cars!

Railroadman

Fixed!

TCracingCA

A lot of basements, a lot of custodial personal who probably know more about where things were left (in what closet), than the engineering staff! Guys like Deloreon probably have/had some of these things as backup plans for their retirements.

And PS

I came up with one more valid to consider scenario. The IK was pulled out of Penske's #9 car and never left his operation!! The CEC guys came down checked it out, did measurements and all, then it got freshened up by Penske, after the evaluation was done. Then because it was lying around-- a decision was made to put it in the Grand Sport #10, because it would be legal in a Prototype as I said. I am serious (joking aside), I bet that is where that engine went!!!!!!! Because even though one of Penske's drivers claims the other driver caused the big wreck and the other claims vice versa, we know who was off of the Penske Team and out of the driver's line-up eventually and that rock solid engine completed that race even with the drama. So the car (damaged and all) still took it's class and why would you remove and change out a known successful seasoned engine, proven reliable after 24 hours, etc.. You don't!!!! You freshen it up, with what you did before and you put it right back in or another Traco unit built identically. The Penske car did not race at Daytona and Sebring with an L88 installed. Period. End of Story! And I am being serious here!!!! The number of cars lines up, the number of engines lines up, the cars ran to the FIA racing rules now lines up, it explains the one engine shipped to St. Lou! It is in line with the timing and general way CEC operated, and the Janitor hasn't come forward yet to discredit the set of circumstances.

Therefore tell the Owner of the 1966 Penske Car, it should have a Traco Grey with IP stamped as run at Sebring if he keeps it in the Blue color, but then the car continued to be campaigned and it could have later got an actual IT L88, but there wasn't one in it at Daytona or Sebring 1966!
Tell the Yenko car Owner the same- that it should be a Yenko massaged IP HD unit.
Tell the Owner of the Grand Sport #001, that he needs to find that IK engine, for it to be "as run" at Sebring 1966!

Tell them all, Derek says so!

Tyler Townsley

The Yenko car may not be what you think it was and it has survived. It and accompanying documentation/pictures are being assembled as I type. The cars journey from March 65 to today took several years to unravel but it has real documentation and some real interesting pictures from its test mule days.

Tyler

TCracingCA

Yenko campaigned in B/P class and if I remember right A/P also in that particular car (64-66 is what I generally see in print) and that is a different car, than these cars I am talking about! That car is pictured in the book about Yenko that is available for sale currently for around $40. Also in addition to that great car, in that book mentions the 1967 L-88 car, but nothing on AP or FIA 1966. That B/P-A/P "test mule" car has a very complex history, and I have looked over your shoulders on that one with curiosity! I discount it as the 1966 Sebring car, because I remember something that said he got a new car for that entry. An SCCA class car and an FIA prepared car are slightly differing animals. The FIA regs required wire wrapping bolts/sealing things so things weren't changed. The cars that showed up for an FIA race had to have the required prep, far more complex than the GCR SCCA regs.

And I really haven't had a need to study up on Yenko in depth, and I have done lessor research by far on East Coast stuff, but I could study this all up if I was so inclined. His highlight ride, that mainly got factory attention were his campaigned Corvairs. The big bore, scratched that other itch. By 1966, he was on the "A" list definitely for stuff! By 1967, he was at the top of the "A" list! This is the crucial time period where his fame evolved into being known as a builder from just a driver with good engineering skills!

Tyler Townsley

I think that car is the car I have seen in person and the documentation for and pictures of, it was a one shot ride and returned to GM.
If the race was FIA then are there not vin records of the cars that were in the race?

Tyler

TCracingCA

Long hard search to document a car usual sounds suspicious to me for such a notable car! It shouldn't be that tough on such notable cars! The little Yenko book is well done and a great tribute to such an interesting enthusiast, but they are missing chapters of his career. I see many claimed notable cars that are trying to stretch an interesting historical car into even more. I think the 1966 entry was a fresh car and not Yenko's old shoe! I will try to get some time to look into Yenko's cars! I have a few ideas as to where to look! And what you said about one off and returned, definitely doesn't match a 1965 model, finally ran in 1966. No fight, it is just an interesting Corvette historical puzzle to unravel!

Tyler Townsley

The car was not a 65, it started life as a 65 chassis with racing mods done by GM and evolved. I cannot say much more at this time but
there are some pictures of the car that we think were taken after it was returned to GM and used as a test mule. I love puzzles.

Tyler

TCracingCA

But i roll with it!

Yenko won Championships during the Gulf sponsorship era, and on up thru the Z-06 days. He took the 63 Z-06 Coupe to Sebring 1965 #28 and it lost it's wheel and kind of got torn up! He also had his new warrior SCCA convertible that he campaigned for a number of years (and that has been confused to be the Summers car! and Vice versa). In 1965 with his first Corvair builds did he begin his transition into big time Team Owner/Buildership and truly joined the my so called "A" list. In 1965 the racing parts started, and Chevrolet parts called or termed HD started in 1966 (the actually available to customer for sale get them at selected dealerships that proved the ability to support, assist these parts purchases outfits (And I have a good list of those- from Berger to Alan Green and everyone in between including Yenko, Bill Thomas also was actually an HD parts outlet too) true HD network availability Dealership/included a few selected speed shop outlets HD parts program. Some call those earlier parts HD, but I need to study up on that in the Catalogs and just haven't gotten mine out from that era. In 1966 for Sebring they got one of the HD cars from CEC. I am talking about the Coupe #8. This thought to be incorrectly L88, went to Yenko/the guy Whims (off memory) and that car continued to be raced getting painted either a red or burgandy and got a 67 stinger hood etc.. that is the 1966 Sebring car and in the Ownership of that customer ran at the 1969 Sebring (therefore not a one race, and not a return to CEC car!). That car was solidly Yenko's and then as Yenko traditionally did, he sold his cars to a preferred customers, because CEC started connecting him up with new stuff. He got the 1967 L88 (1st on track/DX sponsored) and then subsequently the C3 DX team cars. The customer guy Summers "Best Photo #45 was a convertible and was ordered with an IT L-88 is what we are believing! Yenko had the clout by then, and CEC got that out to him. This car was built and released well after Sebring 1966 and closer to the end of 1966 production in the very beginning of June 1966. That car should be technically one of the most expensive rare ones ever, if everything thought about it is true! Ya I think the Penske 1966 Daytona/Sebring car had initially as delivered IK aluminum headed 425hp L88 (not IT) in it. So the Summers car (convertibles) is believed to be IT L88! I don't think i am confused! You guys also forget that i am the not to social mystery guy with the race cars and rare parts with all of the old racing records!!!!!!!!!!

I just wanted to clarify that we all aren't mixing up the various Yenko Coupes and convertibles. Also Yenko shared rides and moved on to different and newer cars.

cardo0

So it reads like the IP or IK blocks would have been the casting #3855962 396 blocks instead of 3869942 427 blocks? I ask because i found a #3855961 block with IP stamp on craigs list but its not a corvette or a 427 block as advertized and would have to be a passenger car/chevelle block: http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/pts/4881293994.html

But whats an IP stamped block worth?

Nowhere Man

that is not a typical stamp pad. a 961 block is a 396 block. would like to see the date on the block.

TCracingCA

Someone wanted to straighten out the version I like!

Ok yes i don't need straigthening out ya ya ya!

Short version! He stuck a big block into a Lola very unsuccessfully! and basically passed after that on using those special parts And Chaparral was getting aluminum blocks, when no one else was, Donohue was still a Ford guy, and they wouldn't let him even see the Chaparrals on his visit to Texas! Come to think about it, then didn't let him look around at GM either. And it bothered him! Go figure! Penske got his dealership. Penske decided to run the camaro, because that model would be more in line to promote car sales! Should i continue????

PS but what i wrote above about getting mad, also ain't too far off of the mark! He confronted Donohue, and made him drop his Ford salary-- equaling it to force his choice!

TCracingCA

Back in August 1965, CEC/GM promised Sports Car Graphics a test of one of their planned Competition Version cars for there December 1965 issue. That didn't happen!!!

The Car Driver Article 1965, I dug it out and that 1966 Car and test was held on the GM Proving Grounds!!!!!! So what does that tell everyone! It had a license plate on it "I 4M 263" and was taken off the grounds for some real world for CD, but was not loaned. The people just told CD that the 3.36 was the standard offering, but made no mention exactly what was in the 12.8 @ 112 mph car (0-60 was 5.4).

The proving grounds test car for 1965 had license plate 1 3M 923 and I can clearly see that is a MFR plate. Therefore the 1 4M 263 is a Manufacturers plate, so it was a development car that got tested by Car & Driver at the proving grounds and more than likely had the hotter Gear driven camshaft B engine upgrades!

TCracingCA

I have been focusing in on interviews or quotes from the people on the racing teams that were using these engines. I especially found one individual telling one story over here and another story over there! It seems Penske was real accurate type guy, and wasn't prone to make things up to sound interesting. Even the authors of some of these books as they interviewed and wrote things into the story, you could tell from the placement or quote of information was kind of shakey! But if they said it, they put it down as a quote, so the source of information-- right or wrong would be known. The mark of a good writer!

I last was looking into the 20 engines shipped from Tonawanda (hope I spelled that right) to CEC (Engineering). Trying to figure out and I now a few days ago, have some of the internal CEC correspondance that Vette Vues published in 1994 out looking at it. Trying to figure out if those were shipped iron head or possibly aluminum head and as to the count, whether the creation of (2) IK engines makes the 22 total as I believe. I have a total of 8 cars getting out the door, and the rest of those engines were either kept for development, shipped to Traco or Yenko as spares. Case in point, the Penske car used two engines of that total count and I think the IK went into the GS car. I think you just can't assume 15 cars based on 15 M22's with the HD engines, because I think some of the M22, just a few went into a few other cars!!! But I am still conflicted on the Transmissions thou! ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC.

But from collective bouncing everything written off of everything else written, it fits starting with the MKII's evolving into an HD and the planned production build IT L88. Going back and finding the statement of Chevrolet's plan to supply Sports Car Graphics with a Competition version of the Corvette in August 1965 and not making that magazines deadline for print of the December 1965 issue, but CD stepped up for a visit to the Proving Grounds to see what the 1966 was all about and made it to print December 1965! This press was wanted by Chevy, prior to the season. Race cars on Sunday, Sell on Monday statement evolved from this period. Even the 1965 stuff that we didn't talk about makes sense and the XXXX1 thing for the Grand Sport. That would have been the beginning of the HD engine stuff, transition from MK II. A few MK II's were still out there and rex White had one from the Z-06 days Daytona 427 days and that went into his GS.

Matching up with Traco, the development of the GM Performance Parts network, what was actually ran vice what later people claimed was installed is all over the place. Some of the worst information has been passed down Car Owner to Car Owner when I read some of the Magazine articles. Some of the authors did pick up on this, and I see references to HD engine, or Competition engine without blindly lumping them all as L88's! The Yenko history, I tore into that more and no one has pulled all of his competition history and accomplishments together accurately!!!!!! But it does get better as his fame grew!
Seemed like the aluminum heads were a problem and cars delivered in 1967 (L88 and L89) in the spring! The Sebring 1966 cars were raced with Iron heads, including Yenko!!!! I do think that Serial #001 Grand Sport got the IK engine.