Help needed: Carter WCFB identification
03-04-2016, 06:36 PM
#21
My momentary conclusion is:
I got the carb at a bargain of 32 EUROs (about $35 incl. shipping at ebays local classified). I plan to try it out for the moment as it is (without helper spring (Thanks Verne!)) with the existing floats ( might there be a misprint regarding float type in your source, Verne ? Can You post it?), in my opinion you definitely need the cutout in rear float as clearance for the shaft of vacuum secondary throttle plates ( did I mix European with American English for 'butterflies'?)
I got the carb at a bargain of 32 EUROs (about $35 incl. shipping at ebays local classified). I plan to try it out for the moment as it is (without helper spring (Thanks Verne!)) with the existing floats ( might there be a misprint regarding float type in your source, Verne ? Can You post it?), in my opinion you definitely need the cutout in rear float as clearance for the shaft of vacuum secondary throttle plates ( did I mix European with American English for 'butterflies'?)
Last edited by Henry_53; 03-05-2016 at 03:54 AM.
03-04-2016, 11:01 PM
#22
Drifting
Henry,
My info comes from a book published by Carter. It's about 4" thick and very fragile so I"d rather not break it down to scan a page. Everything in it was published by Carter, not some compilation from an outside source.
It contains information on every carb they made from the early '50s to about '66 for every car manufacturer, industrial or marine engine.
Go ahead and use the funny float. It may work just fine.
Verne
My info comes from a book published by Carter. It's about 4" thick and very fragile so I"d rather not break it down to scan a page. Everything in it was published by Carter, not some compilation from an outside source.
It contains information on every carb they made from the early '50s to about '66 for every car manufacturer, industrial or marine engine.
Go ahead and use the funny float. It may work just fine.
Verne
03-07-2016, 09:28 AM
#23
Team Owner
Includes a PCV valve and I'll see if its original when the carb arrives
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 03-07-2016 at 09:36 AM.
03-07-2016, 09:49 AM
#24
Pro
That Frankie is one smart guy. wink wink Love your new avatar Frankie. How apropos in this wild a& wacky year of politics
wink wink Love your new avatar Frankie. How apropos in this wild a& wacky year of politics
Last edited by Solid Axle Guy; 03-07-2016 at 09:50 AM.
03-07-2016, 10:22 AM
#25
Team Owner
Having a junker carb or two around is good policy. I cannibalized an entire choke system off one of my shelfware WCFBs to get my running carb straightened out - works like a champ!
03-07-2016, 11:46 AM
#26
Pro
Man what a year in politics. Hopefully a lesson is learned that this is how NOT to conduct a campaign. SAD. I usually don't comment on this subject & I intend that this will be last comment in that regard. Sorry for the OTC OP. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
03-09-2016, 01:47 PM
#27
Of course no comment about American politics.
But 1 idea when I saw 2x4 intakes of the more powerfull corvettes.
Their WCFBs have 2 brass pipes from the left to the right bowl vents with 3 vent holes in their horizontal section. Similar brass pipes you can see on Rochester 4GC or early Carter AFB carbs as 4 tilted pipes from the top of the bowls to the center above the venturies (and of course the single tilted rear pipe on the WCFB). Both kinds of ventilation pipes seem to be for preventing fuel spill out of the vent holes during hard cornering. Can't a single WCFB user install a similar quad pipe or double bow arrangement into the 4 side vent holes of this carb. He surely wants to drive around corners not always that slow!
But 1 idea when I saw 2x4 intakes of the more powerfull corvettes.
Their WCFBs have 2 brass pipes from the left to the right bowl vents with 3 vent holes in their horizontal section. Similar brass pipes you can see on Rochester 4GC or early Carter AFB carbs as 4 tilted pipes from the top of the bowls to the center above the venturies (and of course the single tilted rear pipe on the WCFB). Both kinds of ventilation pipes seem to be for preventing fuel spill out of the vent holes during hard cornering. Can't a single WCFB user install a similar quad pipe or double bow arrangement into the 4 side vent holes of this carb. He surely wants to drive around corners not always that slow!
03-10-2016, 11:59 AM
#28
Drifting
Henry,
I would suggest leaving the carb as designed with the exception of the insert that Frankie explained to help the LH turn condition. You're talking about extensively modifying the carb which could lead you to more unexpected traps that you'd have to compensate for.
I would suggest leaving the carb as designed with the exception of the insert that Frankie explained to help the LH turn condition. You're talking about extensively modifying the carb which could lead you to more unexpected traps that you'd have to compensate for.
03-19-2016, 05:57 AM
#29
Some news again. I followed the advice of Frankie and got a 2nd WCFB at ebay (not as cheap as my 1st and a bit dirty). This time the tag was visible on the Photos and I knew which type I would get: A 4040S. It was originally mounted on a 283 V8 OPEL (German GM division) Diplomat. The discription incl. jetting of this carb I found on the following website: http://www.senatorman.de/Carter.htm
I noticed that the jetting and rods are identical to my "3500S". Yesterday it arrived and I was surprised, that the castings of the 4040S are identical to my (believed to be) 3500S too. Even the rear helper spring (Verne!) was present and mounted as I did on my 1st WCFB. There are only 2 differences to my 1st carb: 1.) a pontoon float in the front bowl and 2.) another kind of spring at this front float (see photos).
My assumption is. Both of my carbs might be of 2 different model years of this OPEL Diplomat. Obviously they are very similar to Corvette's 3500S. Just the float arrangement and secondary jetting (.070 to .0635) are visibly different. Now there are some uncertainties Verne can possibly remove.
Verne. Can you find in your thick carter book data of the bore sizes, which are factory made at the primary side of the WCFB. They are called:
1. idle (I think means pressed in low speed jet) e.g.: .031
2. bypass e.g.: .0635
3. economizer e.g.: .052
4. bleed e.g.: .0635
If all these bores are identical at the 3500S and 4040S somebody may convert a 3500S into a 4040S and vice versa by just swaping floats and secondary jets. Cool !
I noticed that the jetting and rods are identical to my "3500S". Yesterday it arrived and I was surprised, that the castings of the 4040S are identical to my (believed to be) 3500S too. Even the rear helper spring (Verne!) was present and mounted as I did on my 1st WCFB. There are only 2 differences to my 1st carb: 1.) a pontoon float in the front bowl and 2.) another kind of spring at this front float (see photos).
My assumption is. Both of my carbs might be of 2 different model years of this OPEL Diplomat. Obviously they are very similar to Corvette's 3500S. Just the float arrangement and secondary jetting (.070 to .0635) are visibly different. Now there are some uncertainties Verne can possibly remove.
Verne. Can you find in your thick carter book data of the bore sizes, which are factory made at the primary side of the WCFB. They are called:
1. idle (I think means pressed in low speed jet) e.g.: .031
2. bypass e.g.: .0635
3. economizer e.g.: .052
4. bleed e.g.: .0635
If all these bores are identical at the 3500S and 4040S somebody may convert a 3500S into a 4040S and vice versa by just swaping floats and secondary jets. Cool !
Last edited by Henry_53; 03-19-2016 at 06:07 AM.
03-19-2016, 06:05 AM
#30
Team Owner
These carbs were used on everything from Packards to Corvettes; they were the general purpose 4-bbl of the day back then. That's some interesting internals you have on that recently purchased carb....some things I haven't seen before on Chrysler and Corvette versions...
03-19-2016, 11:08 AM
#31
Drifting
Guten Tag Henry,
These are the correct sizes for your 3500S:
1. idle (I think means pressed in low speed jet) e.g.: ..028
2. bypass e.g.: .0595
3. economizer e.g.: .052
4. bleed e.g.: .067
5. Idle port: .175 x .030
Looking again, I did find the secondary float helper spring listed for your carb. It's just installed differently than I'm used to. I always have mental pictures of AFBs rather than WCFBs.
By the way, my book doesn't list any Opel carbs for some reason.
Freundliche Grüße,
Verne
These are the correct sizes for your 3500S:
1. idle (I think means pressed in low speed jet) e.g.: ..028
2. bypass e.g.: .0595
3. economizer e.g.: .052
4. bleed e.g.: .067
5. Idle port: .175 x .030
Looking again, I did find the secondary float helper spring listed for your carb. It's just installed differently than I'm used to. I always have mental pictures of AFBs rather than WCFBs.
By the way, my book doesn't list any Opel carbs for some reason.
Freundliche Grüße,
Verne
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Henry_53 (03-19-2016)
03-19-2016, 02:00 PM
#32
Guten Tag Henry,
These are the correct sizes for your 3500S:
1. idle (I think means pressed in low speed jet) e.g.: ..028
2. bypass e.g.: .0595
3. economizer e.g.: .052
4. bleed e.g.: .067
5. Idle port: .175 x .030
Looking again, I did find the secondary float helper spring listed for your carb. It's just installed differently than I'm used to. I always have mental pictures of AFBs rather than WCFBs.
By the way, my book doesn't list any Opel carbs for some reason.
Freundliche Grüße,
Verne
These are the correct sizes for your 3500S:
1. idle (I think means pressed in low speed jet) e.g.: ..028
2. bypass e.g.: .0595
3. economizer e.g.: .052
4. bleed e.g.: .067
5. Idle port: .175 x .030
Looking again, I did find the secondary float helper spring listed for your carb. It's just installed differently than I'm used to. I always have mental pictures of AFBs rather than WCFBs.
By the way, my book doesn't list any Opel carbs for some reason.
Freundliche Grüße,
Verne
Is it possible to search for a certain carb by its complete tag No.?
I'm pretty sure that my new carb has the correct tag.
Its No. is:
5257789
4040S
L5
03-19-2016, 02:52 PM
#33
Drifting
I'm afraid I don't have a list of applications by carb number. Most of the info is listed under the vehicle or engine manufacturer, and there is no listing for Opel. There is a listing for kit numbers by carb number but that carb is not listed.
Verne
Verne
03-19-2016, 03:02 PM
#34
Team Owner
If your that hell-bent to find details on that Opel carb you could email Ron at Daytona Parts -- they have all the old microfiche engineering drawings they inherited from Carter and they include non-Corvette models too...
03-19-2016, 03:17 PM
#35
Frankie, I shall ask Ron of Daytona Parts for this info next week.
Verne, the Diplomat engine is a genuine Chevy one, should be a kind of Chevy Nova 283 V8.
It deliveres 190 net HP (about 220 to 225 brake HP)
Henry
Verne, the Diplomat engine is a genuine Chevy one, should be a kind of Chevy Nova 283 V8.
It deliveres 190 net HP (about 220 to 225 brake HP)
Henry
03-21-2016, 01:38 PM
#36
Frankie, Verne, many thanks for your kind support, I’m interested that much in details because I plan to use 1 of these carbs on a tuned Buick ‘all aluminum’ 215 engine in my MGB . This modified engine (high compression pistons, ported heads, big valves and fast road cam) will be able to put out about 190 to 210 net HP with a suitable carb. May be I end up with FI, though. When I got this ‘anyhow a WCFB’ I saw the tag and found out, that it could be a Corvette Carb. The original MG carb, a British SU, shows exhaust manifolds as you can see on the picture below. This mixture ‘distribution’ will kill the engine not on the long run but pretty soon! So I shall convert it to a 4bbl downdraft carb on a low profile Offenhauser intake. During the last months I collected 2 AFBs (400 and 500 cfm), a Rochester 4GC and now the 2 WCFBs. Usually folks use the AFB 500 carbs on this engine. Experts say that 500 cfm is a bit large for it and 400 might be too small. I think the WCFB is somewhat in between. Additionally it has the progressive mechanical (+ vacuum) lift for the power rods, which might be an advantage over the vacuum ‘pop up’ rods of the AFB and 4GC. The STD 327 Corvette engine with the 3500S delivers 210 net HP (See link https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/doc...t-Corvette.pdf , page 32), so the cfm rating should be about right for my engine. 1 big difference will be the mixture! The aluminum 215 is able to and should be run on very lean mixture (obviously because of its near perfect cyl. head design), so I think I must jet the carb down some No.s. Primary and secondary jets are identical to all kinds of AFB jets, Carter, Weber and Edelbrock. The low speed jet (fuel) is fixed. So, to get a leaner mixture at the low speed circuit it might be necessary to bore out the ‘bleed’ (air). In very tiny steps, of course! You can’t bore it back smaller! For test run the MG on the Nürburgring Nordschleife (green hell) I have to install the ventilation pipes of the 2x4 version, there are all kinds of tight and very (!) fast corners up and down hill ! Verne, the primary ventilation bridge was in place but the secondary was missing on the 4040S. I promise, if my “3500S” is a real one, it will find its way back unbored to the Corvette community where it belongs! I’m not a Corvette driver yet. If I get one, it will be just a C4 with aluminum heads and FI. The finalization of my MG might last for a while. I want to restore my 48 cu in Honda S 800 convertible first. So my posts may fade out for a while. Of course, I stay tuned to be up to date on this topic.
Cheers to all und Tschüss (oder: Tschö mit ö) to Verne
Cheers to all und Tschüss (oder: Tschö mit ö) to Verne
Last edited by Henry_53; 03-23-2016 at 07:55 AM.