Help needed: Carter WCFB identification
Thread Starter
Cruising
Joined: Feb 2016
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Help needed: Carter WCFB identification
Hi,
I'm new on this forum and have some questions regarding my Cater WCFB Carb.
It consists of the following castings:
Air horn 6-1672
Main 0-1451
Throttle Body 1-1579
According to your well known list it should be a 3500S for a '63 Corvette
The tag shows 3696S. This would be for a '64 Vette
I'm living in Europe and think it might be not very likely, that somebody mixed 2 carbs because they are too rare to be muddled.
So, might it be possible that an exported Corvette get a carb with this combination of castings and tag? May be late '63 or early '64?
Additionally I attached a picture of the primary area of the main casting (0-1451) of my WCFB. Here usually you see the screwed in low speed jet. On my carb there is a bore only!
Does this mean a prior owner bored the jets out or are there castings (namely 0-1451) with fixed bores or pressed in brass tubes for low speed jets as part of the body?
I would appreciate any helping comment very much.
Thanks in advance.
PS: Excuse me ,if my English is not perfect. My native language is German
Henry_53
I'm new on this forum and have some questions regarding my Cater WCFB Carb.
It consists of the following castings:
Air horn 6-1672
Main 0-1451
Throttle Body 1-1579
According to your well known list it should be a 3500S for a '63 Corvette
The tag shows 3696S. This would be for a '64 Vette
I'm living in Europe and think it might be not very likely, that somebody mixed 2 carbs because they are too rare to be muddled.
So, might it be possible that an exported Corvette get a carb with this combination of castings and tag? May be late '63 or early '64?
Additionally I attached a picture of the primary area of the main casting (0-1451) of my WCFB. Here usually you see the screwed in low speed jet. On my carb there is a bore only!
Does this mean a prior owner bored the jets out or are there castings (namely 0-1451) with fixed bores or pressed in brass tubes for low speed jets as part of the body?
I would appreciate any helping comment very much.
Thanks in advance.
PS: Excuse me ,if my English is not perfect. My native language is German
Henry_53
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2007
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Army
Numbers indicate a '63 low-horsepower carb (base motor 250hp 327ci) ... those are actually getting tough to find and its worth a few bucks. Ignore the triangular tag - those are swapped about all the time - the casting numbers tell the story. There is one on eBay right now for $795 USD.
The low speed jets are in place and clearly shown in your picture those are fixed in place...the other jets are at the BOTTOM of the fuel bowls. For instance the primary jets in front are the holes where the metering rods descend into. The jets will have a slotted appearance to allow removal with a screwdriver - don't mix them up! Secondary jets look similar in the rear bowl area. Earlier versions of Corvette WCFBs did have screw in low speed jets however. The holes in your low speed jets (circled) look large to me for some reason - maybe somebody can confirm they are the right size.
Be careful on reassembly there are three different size screws used - get a long one in a short hole and you'll strip the casting.
BTW - your English is better than a few of our native posters !
The low speed jets are in place and clearly shown in your picture those are fixed in place...the other jets are at the BOTTOM of the fuel bowls. For instance the primary jets in front are the holes where the metering rods descend into. The jets will have a slotted appearance to allow removal with a screwdriver - don't mix them up! Secondary jets look similar in the rear bowl area. Earlier versions of Corvette WCFBs did have screw in low speed jets however. The holes in your low speed jets (circled) look large to me for some reason - maybe somebody can confirm they are the right size.
Be careful on reassembly there are three different size screws used - get a long one in a short hole and you'll strip the casting.
BTW - your English is better than a few of our native posters !
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; Feb 26, 2016 at 09:28 AM.
Thread Starter
Cruising
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Numbers indicate a '63 low-horsepower carb (base motor 250hp 327ci) ... those are actually getting tough to find and its worth a few bucks. Ignore the triangular tag - those are swapped about all the time - the casting numbers tell the story. There is one on eBay right now for $795 USD.
The low speed jets are in place and clearly shown in your picture those are fixed in place...the other jets are at the BOTTOM of the fuel bowls. For instance the primary jets in front are the holes where the metering rods descend into. The jets will have a slotted appearance to allow removal with a screwdriver - don't mix them up! Secondary jets look similar in the rear bowl area. Earlier versions of Corvette WCFBs did have screw in low speed jets however. The holes in your low speed jets (circled) look large to me for some reason - maybe somebody can confirm they are the right size.
Be careful on reassembly there are three different size screws used - get a long one in a short hole and you'll strip the casting.
BTW - your English is better than a few of our native posters
!
The low speed jets are in place and clearly shown in your picture those are fixed in place...the other jets are at the BOTTOM of the fuel bowls. For instance the primary jets in front are the holes where the metering rods descend into. The jets will have a slotted appearance to allow removal with a screwdriver - don't mix them up! Secondary jets look similar in the rear bowl area. Earlier versions of Corvette WCFBs did have screw in low speed jets however. The holes in your low speed jets (circled) look large to me for some reason - maybe somebody can confirm they are the right size.
Be careful on reassembly there are three different size screws used - get a long one in a short hole and you'll strip the casting.
BTW - your English is better than a few of our native posters
!
Thank you very much for your helpfull information. Now I know that pressed in low speed jets are normal on this casting. I only saw pictures of screwed in LSJs up to now.
I just measured the top diameter of this low speed jets on my WCFB and found they are about 1/8 ". As you mentioned this seems a bit big to me too. So, does anybody know the STD top diameter of this jets for the 0-1451 casting? There are also orifices for reduction of flow through the low speed circuit on its downleg to the transition slots in the smaller bores besides the LSJs. May be these together with the small diameter at the bottom of the LSJs do the job of metering the fuel flow.
Anybody there who has a 0-1451 casting on hand to veryfy my measurement?
Thanks to all Henry_53
Team Owner
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Army
Unfortunately, I just had my identical carb apart last week for a rebuild. I'm not taking it back apart. You could try contacting these folks: http://daytonaparts.com/contact.html
They are experts in these carbs and have all the old Carter microfiche engineering specs on WCFBs/AFBs on file in their facility. I've even looked at a few.
They are experts in these carbs and have all the old Carter microfiche engineering specs on WCFBs/AFBs on file in their facility. I've even looked at a few.
Thread Starter
Cruising
Joined: Feb 2016
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Usefull tip Frankie. Here the statement of Ron, carter specialist at Daytona Parts Company:
"Henry, the bowl assembly from your WCFB (3500s) is correct for this carburetor. The bleed orifice is at the bottom of the hole, and is pressed in by the factory. Make sure that you can blow compressed air thru the opening; otherwise the bleed at the bottom will be clogged.These are different than the earlier Chevy WCFB carburetors. Hope this helps. Thank You!
RON"
Next weekend i shall have a look at the jetting of my WCFB to be sure, which exact model it is. Currently i'm some miles away from home for work.
This carb seems to be in good shape, may be the primary throttle shaft should get bushing inserts. Despite its slackness seems to be less than on my Carter AFB 9400 , which i found on ebays some years ago as NOS or rebuilt (for me it looked as new). Which material usually is best for this? Teflon (PTFE) or bronce? Are there prefabricated bushings available anywhere?
Henry_53
"Henry, the bowl assembly from your WCFB (3500s) is correct for this carburetor. The bleed orifice is at the bottom of the hole, and is pressed in by the factory. Make sure that you can blow compressed air thru the opening; otherwise the bleed at the bottom will be clogged.These are different than the earlier Chevy WCFB carburetors. Hope this helps. Thank You!
RON"
Next weekend i shall have a look at the jetting of my WCFB to be sure, which exact model it is. Currently i'm some miles away from home for work.
This carb seems to be in good shape, may be the primary throttle shaft should get bushing inserts. Despite its slackness seems to be less than on my Carter AFB 9400 , which i found on ebays some years ago as NOS or rebuilt (for me it looked as new). Which material usually is best for this? Teflon (PTFE) or bronce? Are there prefabricated bushings available anywhere?
Henry_53
Last edited by Henry_53; Mar 4, 2016 at 06:54 AM.
Team Owner
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Army
A typical home rebuilder doesn't rebush the throttle shafts, that's work for pros, so, I don't know what the most popular material is. Be careful though...those shafts have to have some looseness to operate properly - there may be nothing at all wrong with them..
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2015
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From: Fresno California
Henry, X2 on your use of the English language....it's excellent. As an automotive tech since the late '70's who has tuned thousands of cars and rebuilt 100's of carbs, It is my opinion that throttle shaft re-bushing is over-rated. Unless it is so sloppy that the linkage binds, leave it alone. In the real world, it is almost NEVER a problem. Good luck with your project.
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Michael S. Palmer
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From: Fresno California
I've seen throttle shafts that were VERY loose, (like on my old Briggs & Stratton lawn mower and my model T, among others) and never a problem. If the throttle plates fit right and seal up, you are golden. I've re-bushed a few in my naive youth, with no difference in performance gained what-so-ever. The end result is usually throttle plates that don't fit quite right and buggered throttle plate screws and shafts. The loose throttle shaft myth belongs with the 'gear oil eats brass synchros' myth, IMO. Have never found it to have merit.
Thread Starter
Cruising
Joined: Feb 2016
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Thanks to all for the advice. I shall leave the shafts alone. And here my findings about the jetting:
Primary: 110-165 means: 0.086" (correct as far as I know)
Secondary: 110-222 means: 0.070" (somewhat rich compared to others)
Rods: 75-1586 with a flattened area just above the cone (according to Chicago Corvettes web site correct for 3500S and 3501S)
Can't imagine what for the flat spot is!?
And 2 more questions. My WCFB has the "camel" type floats in front and rear bowl. Is this correct too? You in principle need this type of float only in the rear position to clear the axis of the vacuum secondary butterflys.
I didn't make a picture how to fit the tiny spring around the rear float pivot. It has a long and a short leg. Which one goes where?.
Thanks again and in advance
Henry_53
Primary: 110-165 means: 0.086" (correct as far as I know)
Secondary: 110-222 means: 0.070" (somewhat rich compared to others)
Rods: 75-1586 with a flattened area just above the cone (according to Chicago Corvettes web site correct for 3500S and 3501S)
Can't imagine what for the flat spot is!?
And 2 more questions. My WCFB has the "camel" type floats in front and rear bowl. Is this correct too? You in principle need this type of float only in the rear position to clear the axis of the vacuum secondary butterflys.
I didn't make a picture how to fit the tiny spring around the rear float pivot. It has a long and a short leg. Which one goes where?.
Thanks again and in advance
Henry_53
Last edited by Henry_53; Mar 4, 2016 at 08:06 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2007
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Army
The shafts are probably fine.
I would NOT mess with jetting, air bleeds or rods unless you have a specific operational problem. Not sure what 'flattened area' on the rods you refer to....there is a flattened area near the top that usually has the rod numbering on it just under the attachment hook. You should NOT have the floats with the hump in them in BOTH bowls...that is incorrect. Chicago Corvettes sells correct floats (not cheap) or you can get them from another carb. Not sure what spring you refer to around the rear float pivot. Pictures would help.
This is the best WCFB manual I've ever found: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...KWX84w&cad=rja
It is for the earlier carbs but still applies in most cases....if you get a 1963 Corvette Shop Manual it covers the later aspects. Here is my 3501S taken apart 10 days ago... Note the front pontoon float -- no dip..
I can not over-emphasize the importance of centering these floats precisely in the bowls...there is no room for error and if not done correctly they will 'hang up' on turns and cause you no end of problems. There is also an "anti-left turn stall" fix for these carbs you may want to apply while the carb is apart -- my 63 carb already had it (see attachment).
I would NOT mess with jetting, air bleeds or rods unless you have a specific operational problem. Not sure what 'flattened area' on the rods you refer to....there is a flattened area near the top that usually has the rod numbering on it just under the attachment hook. You should NOT have the floats with the hump in them in BOTH bowls...that is incorrect. Chicago Corvettes sells correct floats (not cheap) or you can get them from another carb. Not sure what spring you refer to around the rear float pivot. Pictures would help.
This is the best WCFB manual I've ever found: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...KWX84w&cad=rja
It is for the earlier carbs but still applies in most cases....if you get a 1963 Corvette Shop Manual it covers the later aspects. Here is my 3501S taken apart 10 days ago... Note the front pontoon float -- no dip..
I can not over-emphasize the importance of centering these floats precisely in the bowls...there is no room for error and if not done correctly they will 'hang up' on turns and cause you no end of problems. There is also an "anti-left turn stall" fix for these carbs you may want to apply while the carb is apart -- my 63 carb already had it (see attachment).
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; Mar 4, 2016 at 08:17 AM.
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Cruising
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Frankie, here the photos. The flat spots at the rods look alike as on the picture of the rods Chicago Corvettes sells as "1586" for 3500S.
I fitted the shown spring so that it dampens the sinking floats before they reach their lower stop. I think it was fitted this way on disassembly.
I fitted the shown spring so that it dampens the sinking floats before they reach their lower stop. I think it was fitted this way on disassembly.
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Army
Here are the 63 specs.
These model carbs for 63 use a two-step metering rod....the ones in my photo above are original - that is my 63s 'born with' carb. Yours may, or may not be, judging by the float situation somebody has swapped internal parts randomly. I would say run with those rods and see how they do. If they don't work out you can change rods with the carb still installed on the car in about 5 minutes - you only have to take off the dust cap with two screws....
The flat spot may be how the second rod step is achieved.
I've used Daytona Parts and NAPA's Echlin WCFB rebuild kits on a dozen or so of these carbs. NONE of those kits used that spring setup on the floats. Again, I think somebody tried to make something fit that is not optimal. Also be aware that you set float level with that air horn gasket REMOVED and then reinstall it after setting the floats. A pain, but that's the procedure.
These model carbs for 63 use a two-step metering rod....the ones in my photo above are original - that is my 63s 'born with' carb. Yours may, or may not be, judging by the float situation somebody has swapped internal parts randomly. I would say run with those rods and see how they do. If they don't work out you can change rods with the carb still installed on the car in about 5 minutes - you only have to take off the dust cap with two screws....
The flat spot may be how the second rod step is achieved.
I've used Daytona Parts and NAPA's Echlin WCFB rebuild kits on a dozen or so of these carbs. NONE of those kits used that spring setup on the floats. Again, I think somebody tried to make something fit that is not optimal. Also be aware that you set float level with that air horn gasket REMOVED and then reinstall it after setting the floats. A pain, but that's the procedure.
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; Mar 4, 2016 at 09:36 AM.
Thread Starter
Cruising
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So, my priority 1 task seems to be to find the correct pontoon float for the front bowl. Not an easy one over here in Europe. Alternatively of course one can find the correct fuel level by try and error with the existing float. Thanks for the links. This time I knew them already.
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,711
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From: Hightstown NJ
Thanks to all for the advice. I shall leave the shafts alone. And here my findings about the jetting:
Primary: 110-165 means: 0.086" (correct as far as I know)
Secondary: 110-222 means: 0.070" (somewhat rich compared to others)
Rods: 75-1586 with a flattened area just above the cone (according to Chicago Corvettes web site correct for 3500S and 3501S)
Can't imagine what for the flat spot is!?
And 2 more questions. My WCFB has the "camel" type floats in front and rear bowl. Is this correct too? You in principle need this type of float only in the rear position to clear the axis of the vacuum secondary butterflys.
I didn't make a picture how to fit the tiny spring around the rear float pivot. It has a long and a short leg. Which one goes where?.
Thanks again and in advance
Henry_53
Primary: 110-165 means: 0.086" (correct as far as I know)
Secondary: 110-222 means: 0.070" (somewhat rich compared to others)
Rods: 75-1586 with a flattened area just above the cone (according to Chicago Corvettes web site correct for 3500S and 3501S)
Can't imagine what for the flat spot is!?
And 2 more questions. My WCFB has the "camel" type floats in front and rear bowl. Is this correct too? You in principle need this type of float only in the rear position to clear the axis of the vacuum secondary butterflys.
I didn't make a picture how to fit the tiny spring around the rear float pivot. It has a long and a short leg. Which one goes where?.
Thanks again and in advance
Henry_53
According to my Carter book, your jets and metering rods are the correct ones for that carb. Oddly, the "square" type float is listed as for both primary and secondary bowls. Also, there was no helper spring on the pivot of those floats on that year & model, so I would not use it. I think you have it installed incorrectly. The floats don't have the provision for it to be installed correctly anyway.
Verne
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From: Godfrey Illinois
Another thought Henry is to buy a spare used carb on ebay with the hope that you can make one correct good carb out of two. I sold a couple of very nice 3500S crabs on ebay about 6 months ago for approx $150 each. I would NOT pay $800.00 for one
Team Owner
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Army
I'm back home now and the "Fuel" section of my 63 shop manual shows the secondary float with the dip in it and the primary without it in a bunch of pictures - which matches my original carb.... So not sure how the cookie crumbles on that deal...
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; Mar 4, 2016 at 05:05 PM.