Good definition of "NOM"
12-03-2004, 09:33 PM
#21
Melting Slicks
ctjackster,
great points you raised! many thanks for adding to what I started trying to say (not so eloquently) - I'm an NCRS guy also, and as Gator mentioned, chose NOT to restamp the engine I found for my 1963 Z06 "restoration"
BTW - everything is "numbers correct" for my car - correct block #, within 6-month window on date, correct "RF" suffix, etc. - only thing I did not do was change the VIN - VIN is about 3000 off from my VIN tag - it has the ORIGINAL heads from the car, and lots of other components are also ORIGINAL - they have been restored
great points you raised! many thanks for adding to what I started trying to say (not so eloquently) - I'm an NCRS guy also, and as Gator mentioned, chose NOT to restamp the engine I found for my 1963 Z06 "restoration"
BTW - everything is "numbers correct" for my car - correct block #, within 6-month window on date, correct "RF" suffix, etc. - only thing I did not do was change the VIN - VIN is about 3000 off from my VIN tag - it has the ORIGINAL heads from the car, and lots of other components are also ORIGINAL - they have been restored
12-03-2004, 09:35 PM
#22
Melting Slicks
Gator,
fergit to ask when you were at Tony's if you saw LADY? Tony has had her a month and hasn't done a danged thing! Not that I would be driving her or anything! (VBG)
fergit to ask when you were at Tony's if you saw LADY? Tony has had her a month and hasn't done a danged thing! Not that I would be driving her or anything! (VBG)
12-04-2004, 06:13 AM
#23
Le Mans Master
I love when I read the classified in the local paper or on-line and they state "Completely Original - just restored"!
Rick, I too respect that you have always been 100% up-front about your car and you could have easily done otherwise. I also agree that the car was only original once, and that was when it was new and on the showroom floor.
I have the original block in my car, however, due to wear and freshening it up, there are new pistons and rings, bearings, cam, cam bearings, valves, springs, seals, etc. etc. So technically it is a "rebuilt" original motor (not to mention all the other "restored" or replaced parts). However, there is no point deduction for that in the judging process. In a perfect world, it should not just be that originality applies only to those parts which are visible to the naked eye. However, if that were the case, the whole judging process would require completely dismantling a car which would be rediculous.
Rick, I too respect that you have always been 100% up-front about your car and you could have easily done otherwise. I also agree that the car was only original once, and that was when it was new and on the showroom floor.
I have the original block in my car, however, due to wear and freshening it up, there are new pistons and rings, bearings, cam, cam bearings, valves, springs, seals, etc. etc. So technically it is a "rebuilt" original motor (not to mention all the other "restored" or replaced parts). However, there is no point deduction for that in the judging process. In a perfect world, it should not just be that originality applies only to those parts which are visible to the naked eye. However, if that were the case, the whole judging process would require completely dismantling a car which would be rediculous.
12-04-2004, 10:37 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
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I will also give this thread a two 
I learn some valuable information from this thread -- Now I know I can claim that the 350 CID is the original engine in my 39 Ford Coast to Coast, along with the 700R4 transmission since we put them in when we built it!! My ad could go something like this!!
For Sale 1939 Ford Totally Original Car - Chevy 355 CID - 700R4 - Full Independent Suspension - Chevy Rear end – Bucket Seats – Removalble TOP
I learn some valuable information from this thread -- Now I know I can claim that the 350 CID is the original engine in my 39 Ford Coast to Coast, along with the 700R4 transmission since we put them in when we built it!! My ad could go something like this!!
For Sale 1939 Ford Totally Original Car - Chevy 355 CID - 700R4 - Full Independent Suspension - Chevy Rear end – Bucket Seats – Removalble TOP
12-04-2004, 08:55 PM
#26
Melting Slicks
Joe,
thanks for the "way too kind compliments" - I agree with what you stated about "changing the innards out, etc." and that being a BITCH from a judging standpoint - guess bottom line for me, just wish everyone would fess up to what they really have done to their car and the judging within NCRS probably needs to start reflecting something along these lines
YEAH, I know I am kicking dirt on sacred ground!
thanks for the "way too kind compliments" - I agree with what you stated about "changing the innards out, etc." and that being a BITCH from a judging standpoint - guess bottom line for me, just wish everyone would fess up to what they really have done to their car and the judging within NCRS probably needs to start reflecting something along these lines
YEAH, I know I am kicking dirt on sacred ground!
12-04-2004, 10:29 PM
#27
Le Mans Master
http://www.ncrs.org/forum/archive18.cgi?review=145897
my thoughts in that thread expressed under my name, Jack Whittle. I think "Lady"'s owner was in on that thread too . . .
my thoughts in that thread expressed under my name, Jack Whittle. I think "Lady"'s owner was in on that thread too . . .
12-05-2004, 11:45 AM
#28
Team Owner
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Originally Posted by mdz06vetter
Joe,
thanks for the "way too kind compliments" - I agree with what you stated about "changing the innards out, etc." and that being a BITCH from a judging standpoint - guess bottom line for me, just wish everyone would fess up to what they really have done to their car and the judging within NCRS probably needs to start reflecting something along these lines
YEAH, I know I am kicking dirt on sacred ground!
thanks for the "way too kind compliments" - I agree with what you stated about "changing the innards out, etc." and that being a BITCH from a judging standpoint - guess bottom line for me, just wish everyone would fess up to what they really have done to their car and the judging within NCRS probably needs to start reflecting something along these lines
YEAH, I know I am kicking dirt on sacred ground!
At Bloomington, there's no mercy - if the pad isn't right, you lose ALL the points, and can't make Gold. NCRS has a more enlightened view; even with a blank or totally wrong pad, you can still Top Flight if the casting number and date are correct for the car.
12-05-2004, 12:11 PM
#29
As long as used Corvette dealers keep hyping the 'matching numbers' b/s to ignorant Corvette buyers, there will continue to be a big profit in outright fraud.
When buyers stop paying the big $$$ differential for 'matching numbers' (instead of the true condition of the car), only then will it stop the fraud.
When buyers stop paying the big $$$ differential for 'matching numbers' (instead of the true condition of the car), only then will it stop the fraud.
12-05-2004, 01:06 PM
#30
Advanced
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You know the whole value of clones point is so true. I've attended several auctions this year and have also seen the clones take off in value. Example: A 1969 camaro COPO clone at the Barrett Jacson LA auction over $100,000. A 1970 CUDA HEMI conv. at the Dallas Kruise auction, also a clone, well over $100,000. Certainly these numbers would have been much higher had the cars been original but the fact remains that the clones are also bringing big bucks. I'm going to the Barrett Jackson in Scottsdale in January and ever though the numers aren't realistic they still give you an idea of which cars are gaining the most in value.
12-05-2004, 01:07 PM
#31
Racer
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St. Jude Donor '05
Originally Posted by mdz06vetter
Gator,
fergit to ask when you were at Tony's if you saw LADY? Tony has had her a month and hasn't done a danged thing! Not that I would be driving her or anything! (VBG)
fergit to ask when you were at Tony's if you saw LADY? Tony has had her a month and hasn't done a danged thing! Not that I would be driving her or anything! (VBG)
02-08-2016, 01:57 AM
#32
Pro
I could not disagree more
The engine is the heart of the car, it is one important component of what makes up a car: body, chassis, engine. I would be happy to own a C2 with a rebuilt original (to that car) engine. Replacing the engine with the same kind (original to the C2 model) must be stated as NOM, it cannot be stated as "numbers matching" because that is intentionally misleading us to believe it is the Original Motor that came with the car. I am confident most, if not nearly all Corvette owners and buyers share the logic of this view.
It is unethical and in some cases illegal to not disclose what parts were replaced during the restoration. Bunk
It is unethical and in some cases illegal to not disclose what parts were replaced during the restoration. Bunk
I disagree.
Restoration is restoration. By your definition repainting the body, replacing the radiator, or replacing the seats is fraud.
If someone sells a car as restored, and maintains that the radiator, seats, or engine is original, that is fraudulent if any have been replaced.
If they display the car as restored, or sell it as such, and make no claim as to the originality of the parts, that's a used car.
Caveat emptor applies to used cars. Having said that, you should know I have owned my c2 for 17 years and do not intend to sell it. I have no vested interest in my opinion.
PS Somewhere along the trail, people got the idea that swapping engines during restoration is a sin. The carb and the trans in a c2 should also carry the vin. I don't see car enthusiasts complaining about having restamped carbs on their engines. IMO the big deal with the engine is in the mind of people who have cars with documented original engines and want exclusivity, or people who buy these cars undocumented (and a lot cheaper) and find out they have more money than brains (if they think they are getting a steal on an original car). People who show or drive them shouldn't have a care. I don't.
The moral dilemma faced by sellers who do not want to disclose what parts they know have been replaced is easily solved by web/consignment sales. Those who choose to lie may also be breaking the law if they are selling, but keeping silent is only a sin of omission.
Restoration is restoration. By your definition repainting the body, replacing the radiator, or replacing the seats is fraud.
If someone sells a car as restored, and maintains that the radiator, seats, or engine is original, that is fraudulent if any have been replaced.
If they display the car as restored, or sell it as such, and make no claim as to the originality of the parts, that's a used car.
Caveat emptor applies to used cars. Having said that, you should know I have owned my c2 for 17 years and do not intend to sell it. I have no vested interest in my opinion.
PS Somewhere along the trail, people got the idea that swapping engines during restoration is a sin. The carb and the trans in a c2 should also carry the vin. I don't see car enthusiasts complaining about having restamped carbs on their engines. IMO the big deal with the engine is in the mind of people who have cars with documented original engines and want exclusivity, or people who buy these cars undocumented (and a lot cheaper) and find out they have more money than brains (if they think they are getting a steal on an original car). People who show or drive them shouldn't have a care. I don't.
The moral dilemma faced by sellers who do not want to disclose what parts they know have been replaced is easily solved by web/consignment sales. Those who choose to lie may also be breaking the law if they are selling, but keeping silent is only a sin of omission.
02-08-2016, 06:52 AM
#33
Team Owner
The engine is the heart of the car, it is one important component of what makes up a car: body, chassis, engine. I would be happy to own a C2 with a rebuilt original (to that car) engine. Replacing the engine with the same kind (original to the C2 model) must be stated as NOM, it cannot be stated as "numbers matching" because that is intentionally misleading us to believe it is the Original Motor that came with the car. I am confident most, if not nearly all Corvette owners and buyers share the logic of this view.
It is unethical and in some cases illegal to not disclose what parts were replaced during the restoration. Bunk
It is unethical and in some cases illegal to not disclose what parts were replaced during the restoration. Bunk
02-08-2016, 09:34 AM
#34
Le Mans Master
looks like he popped in from the C7 forum to spread enlightenment. In his 14 months on the CF he KNOWS that ALL Corvette owners and buyers MUST agree with him.
God Bless America!
God Bless America!
02-08-2016, 10:09 AM
#35
Race Director
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All I can say is WOW......
02-08-2016, 12:11 PM
#36
Administrator
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The engine is the heart of the car, it is one important component of what makes up a car: body, chassis, engine. I would be happy to own a C2 with a rebuilt original (to that car) engine. Replacing the engine with the same kind (original to the C2 model) must be stated as NOM, it cannot be stated as "numbers matching" because that is intentionally misleading us to believe it is the Original Motor that came with the car. I am confident most, if not nearly all Corvette owners and buyers share the logic of this view.
It is unethical and in some cases illegal to not disclose what parts were replaced during the restoration. Bunk
It is unethical and in some cases illegal to not disclose what parts were replaced during the restoration. Bunk
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