Burrell22

I'm sure this is a very popular topic as all the smog bs. I just aquired an 80' l48. I just need to know what emission hoses, tvs, and other smog stuff I can ditch. The obvious is air pump, egr, things of that nature. Any info is greatly appreciated.

ddawson

Well if you in California you can't remove any of it.

So what state do you live in and does it require any emissions testing.

Burrell22

I do not live in California lol, I'm located on the east coast. No emissions testing what so ever on this car. The smog pump is already gone and I just disconnected the entire egr vacuum system. Made sure to hook up the tranny lock up hose back to the carb, plugged off that line to the vape canister, left just the big hose. But yeah no emission testing, so fire away

rebel542

If you happened to live in NC your car wouldn't require safety inspection in 2015 and you could do what ever you wanted. True duels, TPI etc.

Burrell22

I do happen to live in NC. I'm putting a 650 holley on it. But otherwise, emission crap that can come off and not effect anything?

DUB

Other than you altering/modifying/removing emission equipment which is a violation of Federal law.....regardless what state you live in. And getting the Holley to work with a good air cleaner that will fit and have good hood clearance....you taking off all emissions equipment should not effect anything...unless you actually check your emissions to see how well it is burning. Though power gains may occur and be felt....they 'generally' are not that drastic.

Your charcoal vapor canister has a purpose. Sealing up that hose is NOT allowing the fuel tank to 'breathe' as it was designed to do. That hose from the charcoal canister to your PCV is there for a reason....along with the vacuum hose that works the charcoal canister. It has NOTHING to do with any type of POWER loss.

Keep your parts....and do not throw them away. NC DMV has changed the ruling before and can do it again. I know many people feel that just because the car is no longer needing to get an inspection...which is up to the state you live in....FEDERAL LAW trumps everything. And if you think for one second that the EPA is not paying attention to emission standards...well I know of a situation where some guys messed around with emission tests and are now serving time.

I KNOW I can not remove the emission of a car.....being in the business...I just can not...so my opinion on matters like these are quite different than those people trying to get more power in a car that they more than likely will not use that much on the street anyway. Catalytic converters, EGR, PCV, charcoal vapor canister and any switching devices must stay intact.

Best of luck.

DUB

Burrell22

I understand all of the laws.. I do work in this business... So let's just put this into hypothetical terms... To avoid this predicament

DUB

SERIOUSLY.....Then if you are in the 'business'...you ALREADY KNOW if what you want to do will work or not. How can you NOT know. Because knowing what the components do in regards to the function of the emissions...having them 'hypothetically' taken off....will give you result that you MUST KNOW all about....if you are in the business....correct????

Warning bells are ringing in my head like crazy now. You being a BRAND NEW forum member...and this being your FIRST POST.....talking about something so important as emission controls.....this may be a legitimate post....but then again....I stand firm on my comments in POST #6.

You being in the 'business' did it for me.

DUB

Mike Ward

Wow, another noob getting off on the wrong foot.

For the OP- your question gets asked just about every month. Contrary to legend, the 'smog bs' does not impact performance to any meaningful degree. Some of it- like the EGR you've just taught a lesson actually helps driveability. Removing the EVAP canister, another source of much contempt, risks a fuel leak or a stinky garage.

BTW- a 650 Holley carb is a downgrade from the 750 Qjet the car came with.

Best of luck.

Burrell22

I'm keeping the Evap canister, just running the one large line from it. I was just asking what vacuum lines I can get rid of. Good lord. It's wiser to ask and research then it is to jump headfirst and spend hours fixing what you screwed up

mike48750

Dub is 100% correct in his response. I spent most of my life in California and vividly remember when smog testing was implemented, I had one of the first certificates issued by the state to perform the original tests. I can not tell you how many folks scrambled to get the parts they had discarded so the could continue to drive on the street. Air pump prices and the associated hardware went straight thru the roof. The Chev dealership I worked at couldn't get parts fast enough. Good luck with your project but keep in mind you risk having a "for the track only" car.

commander_47

Dub is partly correct as far as CARB (California states and the few northeastern states that have elected to conform to CARB standards)

Please read and see the reg for yourself here:

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/pdfs/2753.pdf

Memo 1 and memo 1A of the EPA reg clearly allows you to use aftermarket parts, and to replace parts that still meet the pollution standard. The only difference is clearly with "New" cars, which is still up for interpretation.

Dealers are supposed to use original equipment for the "useful" life of the vehicle. This is also up to interpretation. There are many, many and even more many exceptions to the convoluted rule.

For example, California is exempt from the rule only in that they have been granted permission to make the rules more stringent due to the horrible pollution in California. Hence, the CARB standards. Some states have adopted these rules.

Even Ca has established rules that don't comply with Memo 1. For example the Memo states that all cars from 1968 forward must comply with EPA reg 1. CARB standards require it from 1966.

However, it clearly states in the CARB that vehicles prior to 1975 don't have to comply. California also changed its 30 year vintage rule. There is no more 30 year law. 1976 and newer must be untampered with and dealers must replace parts with stock parts.

This can be a huge problem. Suppose you are in California and you go for inspection. You may pass the emissions test but "flunk" the "visual" inspection if any part isn't a Dealer Part. Sounds like a racket to me.

The Feds have no way of enforcing their own law unless the states do it. So they grant exceptions to the states. The reason is that the quality of air in your state allows that state to modify the rules!

If everyone was saddled with the ridiculous CARB standard, there would be NO AUTO AFTERMARKET at all. Seems ironic that California is supposedly the hot rod nexus and yet, if you build a late model one you can't drive it.

Other states aren't saddled with that.

Some states, like Missouri, (See Post Below) were completely exempt from any emission standard until recently. They want the federal highway funds. There emissions is very lax. In fact many states have these same provisions.

The OP has no problem in North Carolina as the rules are similar to Missouri. Rock on, take that junk off. Increase power exponentially, improve the looks and don't worry about it. God bless NC!

OH, and btw, the charcoal canister is an absolute, total, and complete waste of time and money. First of all, the charcoal was played out years ago. Second of all, your car will run better without all that extra plumbing and NOT smell of gas if you plug the return line with a vacuum plug. Use a ventilated cap.

The EGR valve is another useless and over rated gizmo. Exhaust GAS Recirculation. How in the world does running hot exhaust gas back into your engine help it?

The PCV valve is good for your engine. It cleans it and keeps it lubricated. (positive crankcase ventilation)

Air pump is useless as it works like a bellows to pump air into the exhaust manifold and heat it up red hot.

I added the bold to show what "normal" states are doing.
Not all Missouri counties even have emissions requirements at all:

Exempted vehicles include
•1995 and older gas-powered vehicles;
•1996 and older diesel-powered vehicles;
•New motor vehicles, not previously titled and registered, for the four-year period following their model year of manufacture, with fewer than 40,000 miles at the first required biennial safety inspection;
•New and unused vehicles, with model years within two years of the calendar year, that have odometer readings of less than 6,000 miles at the time of original sale by the manufacturer or dealer; and
•Motor vehicles that are driven fewer than 12,000 miles between biennial safety inspection are exempt from the emissions testing requirements until they fall outside the listed criteria.
•See Waiver Applications and Exemption Requests to apply for mileage-based exemptions.
•Vehicles purchased new and unused from a dealer in the calendar year preceding the vehicle's model year (eg. a 2007 model year vehicle purchased in 2006), whose license plates come due for renewal in the calendar year that is the same as the model year, are exempt from safety and emission inspection requirements in that calendar year. Please contact the Department of Revenue for verification of this exemption.
•Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles.



Other exemptions include
•Motorcycles and motortricycles;
• Vehicles powered by fuels other than gasoline, ethanol or diesel;
•Vehicles that are domiciled and operated exclusively in an area of the state not subject to the emissions inspection requirements;
•Historic Vehicles registered pursuant to section 301.131 RSMo;
•School buses;
• Tactical military vehicles; and
•Visitor, employee or military personnel vehicles on federal installations provided appointments do not exceed 60 calendar days.
•Vehicles registered in the emissions testing area, but operated exclusively outside of the area
•Specially Constructed and Kit Vehicles



Stock 81 with all emissions crap:




81 cleaned up and putting out 400 hp\

DUB

commander 47,

Very factual information...and I seriously doubt the State of California and automotive manufacturers are in bed together.....thus giving you the feeling that there is a racket going on. If a persons car is that important to them...they can still move to another state....if not....get rid of the car....or find the part required.

If a charcoal canister is a big waste of time and money...as you put it... WHY does GM use a charcoal canister on the Z06?? Because you are aware that they do still have a charcoal canister.....don't you. And using a vented cap is doing the OPPOSITE of what the charcoal canister does. Allowing raw gas vapors to get into the air. YEAH...I KNOW...so many other things are allowed...but why add to a problem.

I agree that there are a lot of issues....and doing this for a living...I do not care to get in the 'cross-hairs' of the EPA. Painting cars is bad enough.

And the aftermarket industry would not suffer if the designs and engineering of parts made were compliant from the start. But many Americans feel that 'have the right' to do what they want. Like driving around with dark lens covers on their taillights...because it looks cool...but on a sunny day you can not see that they have the brake lights on.

I personally do not care what a person does to their car. And I have seen cars totally modified that when the 'sniffer' was used to read the emissions....it was below standards...and much of the equipment was removed. I know it can be done....but NOT by me.

History usually repeats itself.....and one day....the rules may change and then everybody who 'did what they wanted' will be hunting parts to get the car back on the road legally. All it will take is someone in office who really cares about the environment. It has happened before.

DUB

commander_47

Not causing a debate, just want to clarify.

As for the dealer replacement parts.....why? If the car can pass the emissions test, why is it a requirement to have dealer parts? Why not aftermarket Cats and EGR valves for example if the standard is met.

I 'm just sayin


As for the charcoal canister, a few facts:

The canister system was designed to prevent gas vapor from entering the atmosphere.

It works by simply connecting a vacuum source from the intake to the top of the gas tank. The big problem is how to equalize the pressure in the tank so the gas can be pumped into the motor!!!

Enter the charcoal canister. Contrary to popular believe, the canister is not a filter. What the activated charcoal does is store vapor. This allows fresh air from the motor to go back into the gas tank to replace the vapor that has been pumped out.

Then the vapor goes from the canister into the carb to be burnt.

The charcoal can be purchased at PETCO. It is the same stuff used to neutralize the smell of cat boxes.

The canister controls smell in your garage because it is an open system. The vacuum hoses are open to the carb system.

The charcoal loses its properties over time and will not store vapor or fumes. Usually in 8-10 years.

If you remove all that plumbing and block the vent line under the brake equalizer, and use a vented cap, you stop the vapor.

A vented cap doesn't let vapor OUT...it let's fresh air IN to equalize pressure in the tank. That is why you don't smell gas in your garage.

Another irony here is that you let more vapor into the atmosphere when you put gas into your tank. Simply look at the nozzle when you are putting gas in and you can see the wavy vapor lines pouring out.

Also, what about all those gas cans, mowers, trimmers, go carts, motorcycles, snowmobiles and dozens of other vehicles without charcoal canisters? Every time you open a cap you let vapor out.

It is a bad idea. Just because GM uses it in new cars doesn't make it gospel. They have been known to make mistakes

DUB

I AGREE with YOU!!!!...if what is coming out of the tailpipe is well within the standards....why does it matter. If it does matter that the parts are not factory equipment...then complain to the state representatives so laws can be changed.



Not quite....I have never run across a factory set-up that has a hose to the tank without a charcoal canister between the hose from the tank and the engine vacuum source.

Equalizing the pressure in the tank is done by the fuel cap only allowing air IN and not to pass through it out into the environment.

Fresh air 'back into the gas tank' does NOT come from the charcoal canister Fresh air enters into the gas tank through the fuel cap...as previously mentioned.

When connected correctly.

I agree...and that is why some charcoal canisters have extra provisions on them for the blow vent also.

I agree...but tank pressure will increase due to not having a vacuum source to pull air into the tank.

WHAT???? How can air get drawn into the tank...when sloshing around fuel and heat masks the fuel tank pressurize....and that explain when I have a carb dripping fuel...when I take the cap off and release the pressure...the fuel STOPS dripping....then I go and drive it for a half an hour and stop and NO fuel is dripping due to the fuel cap is not sealed.....but if I seal it up again...the fuel starts to drip again when the engine is shut off.....and this is due to the vapor return line system to the charcoal canister has been plugged up and NOT allowing vacuum to draw vapors from the tank.....which is WHY a person should NEVER fill the tank to the top. It can allow raw fuel to be drawn in the vapor line and then the 'beginning of the end' will start.

I agree that the system is not working IN REGARDS to all fossil burning fuel engines not having to follow the same requirements.

And funny how no gas stations have to have a catalyst to stop the vapors from the in ground gas tanks that vent into the air. But yet...fuel companies make BILLIONS in a quarter.

And using a fuel powered weed-eater for an HOUR puts more pollutants into the air than a new car driving for 100 miles.

But just because the regulations are not perfect....in my opinion...does not make it right to do 'whatever'...because 'they' do not have to follow the same requirements.

I GET HOW YOU FEEL!!!!!
ALL I can do is MY PART to not make it any worse....or at least utilize what has been designed and engineered into the car.

DUB

jb78L-82

Anyone who tells you that removing 70/80's smog emissions gear will have negligible effect on performance, quite frankly, does not know what the heck they are talking about….Not only are there big gains to be had not running smog gear on Gen 1 SBC from the 70?80's, primarily AIR pump and hardware and single exhaust with cat, but other things like carb tuning, engine running temps, timing etc. One of the biggest downsides to all the emissions gear was the car quite simply ran like crap especially with a few miles on the engine. If you have no emissions inspection/testing, I would remove all that 70's junk (but keep everything stored) and put on some performance parts and you would not believe the car has the same engine…..I did on my 78 L-82 before the recent total rebuild and went from 220 NET HP to about 275 Net HP with primarily no emissions at all, shorty headers, and 2.5 inch duals, performance timing, and a 175-180 operating temperature…

And oh yes, removing any emissions gear on a car originally equipped with said equipment is against the law in all 50 states, but so is jay walking……Who cares on 30-40 year old cars that are hardly driven…ridiculous. No reason to touch the emissions on my more modern engines-WHY?-They run great and were designed with the modern emissions control. Totally not the case back 30-40 years ago..

commander_47

I beg to differ. You are simply wrong.

Pre 60's car were vented to atmosphere via a tube. Installation varies, but the principle is the same.



Leaking can be prevented by simply making a U in the rubber hose attached to the vent tube thus working like a toilet valve to keep liquid gas from escaping. This is a bad system as it allows direct evaporation of fuel to the atmosphere.

This can also be an overflow hose if you put too much gas in your tank.

In the 60's, the vented gas cap came along. At first, the cap could vent both ways, and is still used in small engines. But the two way cap is not used on automobiles.

Read more : http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5057554...caps-work.html

Vented Gas Cap Function
The vented gas cap is designed to vent small amounts of air into the car gas tank line. The vented gas cap has a one-way release valve that is pressure-activated. When the pressure reaches a certain point (defined by so many pounds per square inch) the valve opens by a very small amount, relieving some of the pressure. In this case, the pressure is formed on the outside of the tank, due to the vacuum formed from the displacement of fuel on the inside. After the pressure inside the line equalizes, the pressure valve closes. The valve is set to balance the pressure with the surrounding atmosphere. Air is allowed in, but no fumes are allowed out of the gas cap, because of environmental concerns.

Sometimes the vented cap is combined with a closed loop tube to allow for expansion.

This was a GREAT improvement. No more evaporation of fuel, and the fumes stayed in the tank to be burned.

Even with a vented gas cap, you may hear hissing when you remove it if you let the tank get really low in hot weather. Gas tanks are built to absorb this.

Sometime in the late 60's early 70's, the Charcoal canister came along.

This is the canister from an 81 vette. You can clearly see the PCM valves on the top.




A vent line from the tank is routed to the canister PCM (purge) valve. The valve directs whether air comes from the PCV (crankcase) system to the tank to equalize pressure, or stored vapor in the canister is pulled into the carb. Fresh air is also pulled into the canister purge system from outside to help equalize pressure.



With a charcoal canister you DO NOT have a vented cap. You have sealed gas cap. One that often leaks and is the cause of many cars failing their emissions test. When the tank is tested they put it under pressure and look for leaks.

These early EVAP systems are no better than using the correct vented gas cap. If you put an incorrect two way vented cap from a small industrial engine on your car you are defeating the purpose. Automotive vented caps are ONE WAY.

Modern systems are quite a bit different. There are many sensors attached to the system and it's controlled by the computer. Many things can go wrong on a modern EVAP system. There are pressure valves and sensors, Oxygen sensors and a multitude of other sensors and controls.

David Mc

Back to the OP's misconceptions of emission control......

Just removing emission control devices is not likely to lead to any significant performance gains. Some of the those devices do not hurt performance at all. Like the evap system described above. It does nothing but save gas that would be lost to evaporation. Yes, my '67 has a nice stain on the car cover from fuel vapors being released by the gas cap.

The pro's of the PCV system outweigh the cons.

The AIR pump takes very little energy to drive and has little effect on engine performance. It's hideously ugly though.

The EGR does have a small effect on performance while accelerating. It's only purpose is to try to put out the fire of the combustion process. There's a reason newer cars don't have them.

It's likely your catalytic converter, while keeping your exhaust free of CO and unburned fuel, is likely hampering any more performance gains.

If you're ditching the emission control devices for performance gains you'll probably be disappointed. Gains will be made by increasing compression, better flowing heads and camshaft and intake manifold.

Mike Ward

I get the impression that the OP wants to do simple freebie stuff like pulling off random vacuum lines.

jb78L-82

Ok, let's try this one more time..

Emissions control collectively definitely hampers performance on 70/80's vehicles whether it is a C3 or some other car, either directly such as a 2-1-2 exhaust with a single restrictive cat or by limiting carb mixture restrictions and/or timing. Taking each one:

1. Exhaust-by far the biggest performance gains can be made here with a 2.5 inch true dual exhaust with headers of some sort and no cat. No argument in this area. The gains can be anywhere from 25-50 HP-I did it, documented the gains as have MANY others have, and the exhaust improvements are well known.

2. AIR pump and hardware-Minimal drag on the engine BUT the exhaust ports in the manifold extend VERY far into the cylinder head creating unwanted turbulence on the exhaust side of the system. It is NOT about the HP gain only from the AIR pump removal but the ports are problematic.

3. EGR valve-I blocked mine 30+ years ago since I did not want "dirty" air being recirculated back into the clean incoming charge for combustion. Performance gains are debatable but logic dictates here that breathing dirty air on a sprint is not as good as pure air-think about it….EGR valves can contribute to poor motor operations such as stumbling etc. get rid of it..

4. Emissions carb with idle mixture screw caps limiting the ability to fatten the mixture and lean jetting will definitely contribute to poorer performance than carb without these items.

5. PCV system-Generally a good system and minimal effect on performance. I would keep this one.

6. Evaporation charcoal cannister-take or leave it-no effect.

7. Performance Timing-Noticeable effect on performance. Stock factory timing is set for emissions and will result in poor performance and drivability on some engines.

Emission controls on modern engines is a very different animal and generally left in place have minimal effect on performance-totally not true back when GM slapped anything and everything on the C3 engines to meet emissions with little regard to performance...