bluedawg

I am going to swap from the rpm air gap to a single plane and was wondering what the consensus was on the team g versus the Victor Jr. I currently run 3.08 rear gears and am going to put the 3.70 rear in soon hoping to drop my 60' some and improve my et, which combined with the 3.06 first of the 700 is going to shred the tires more so then it does now. My thought is to swap to a decent single plane to pick up a little more on the top end. Maybe my thinking here is flawed and if so please tell that it is and why and either way tell me if you would go with the team g or Victor Jr and why you would. I do plan on seeing what the et and mph are with the dual plane first, but the dual with the open spacer netted the best mph last summer. Thanks Blue.

400"
Afr195's
comp xe288hr
2500-rpm stall
700r4
3.70 rear gear

7t9l82

if i was looking at the right cam, it looks like horsepower levels at about 6k. an R.P.M air gap slows down at that R.P.M also, you have a 2500 stall speed, and you want a manifold that starts to make improvement about 3k. i may be missing something but i think what you have now is pretty good. i would throw a gear in it and call it a Day unless you go to a bigger cam. like i say i may have looked up the wrong thing in that case never mind .

bluedawg

Well the 400" drops the rpm range around 500 ish rpms of both the cam and intake, if the intake makes power to 6500 on a 350 it would be 6000 on the 400", but when edelbrock Brock claims 6500, I'd figure that on a 350 it was climbing to 6000, leveled off and started the decline at 6500, so theoretically on the 400" it climbs to 5500 and levels. My thought is with the 3.7 rear gear and the 3.06 first, I will benefit more from added power on the top end and as the spacer experiment at strip showed it actually picked up 1.5 mph decreased the et slightly, which in my hill Billy thought process would indicate some benefit from an open plan, I appreciate your comment and am looking for all pros and cons. Like i said, I will try the rpm air gap at the strip with the 3.70's as well as the single plane which might prove you entirely right. Thanks.

76strokervette

Both manifolds will perform about the same.Do you know how much hood clearance you have?The team g has a lower carb pad height than the victor jr.

gdh

When I ran 1/4's I opted for the Team G as it was recommended by a few successful racers stateside at I met. I don't think there is much to choose from btn the 2. Both have different height options. The Team G replaced a Torker on a 383 stroker which I was pleased with the results. Only ran 3 passes as something broke and decided to pursue a less expensive hobby. The intake is sitting in a box, thought about putting it on the ZZ383 but since I won't race it there's no point in switching.

427Hotrod

A few years ago I did some testing on a 400" with Dart as cast 200cc heads....248* SR cam.

This was a Dart air gap style dual plane against a Team G. Both untouched and out of the box.

You can get an idea of the curves. The Team G does very well if you twist it a little.

JIM

bluedawg

Thanks Gents,
I have the L88 4inch high rise so i have extra hood clearence, I know that the team g comes in three different heights, I figure if I go that direction that I'd use the lower one and adjust the height with spacers.

Real interesting data Jim. Looks like the weiand was up in quite a few places and Givin the boost to the low end with the gear swap, don't know that I'd notice less on the lower end. Seems that I get it to hook and it's slow on the 60' like 2.06ish and figure going from 3.08 to 3.70 might help that alot, also figure upping to a 3000 rpm stall would help, but won't be doing that until I have to drop the tranny again. All in all its a street car and I only really use the quarter as a measure of " if my tinkering" made a difference, but testing last sumer i got the bug and not to far from 11.99 seconds which i have set for a goal to hit naturally aspirated. I do have the blower in the garage that me and ipa won on ebay but ain't quite ready to go there yet. I thought about the afr composite but dont want to in 500 if it dont work as well as id hoped. I have a straub hydraulic roller that once i get it to perform to its best i will swap to this next winter, Chris knew that this was going to be my intention and all for it with the recent camshaft debates, and as with this cam i will swap back to the dual plane to make sure on cam doesnt perform better the oposite way To try to make it as apples to apples as possible, comp recomended not to run 1.6 rockers and chris ground the cam with 1.6 rockers in mind. Thanks for the information.

lars

Blue -
Interesting swap you want to do...

I'm running a SB 407 with a Victor Junior. Heads and setup very similar to yours, with a custom grind solid roller 286 (adv) with a little over .600 lift (5-7 firing order swap). Dyno'ed at 500/500, with best numbers below 6200. I was initially hesitant to run the single plane, thinking I would "lose bottom end torque."

You gotta' be kidding...

I'm running a 3.73 rear end with an M21. From 1700 rpm, the car is almost uncontrollable, and it will shred the tires and rip your head off from any rpm just above idle. Side-stepping the clutch is not even a consideration: you simply push the gas pedal down at any rpm above idle, and everything breaks loose.

I was actually considering swapping the VJ for an RPM Air Gap, since the two manifolds seem to put out similar numbers up through my 6200 rpm usable power range, but with the RPM getting better low-end numbers. I was thinking this might gain me a little more low/mid power and torque with the RPM manifold. But I can't put the low/mid power I have with the VJ to the ground anyway, so what's the point..? I think I'll keep the single plane and just listen to people tell me what a dog my car must be...

Lars

bluedawg

This is pretty much my thought Dr. As it is i can shread the tires cold, when there heated it hooks well with the 275's but the 60' is ***** 2.06 being the best, with more gear 3.08 to 3.7 I will have traction issues even with the 275's but hope if I get it to hook it cuts My 60' down to 1.8 or best case 1.7 which with just the gear swap would put me at low 12's hoping with the top end gains from the intake maybe high 11's. That would be a good apples to apples comparison that i plan. You hear I can't get traction alot, I say increase the cam and make the difference up on the top end, that's what I hope to do with the single plain, if that don't work I'll need to go sticky tires.

cardo0

Kinda funny coincidence but i measured a Vic Jr runner just the other day. It was only 3.25" long on the short side of the inside runner. I thought that was pretty tiny and can see why Edel rates them for 8,000rpm.
Intakes are cheap and u can find plenty of used intakes for less than half price. U dont know how well one works until u try one. Optimizing is all 'bout the best combination of parts and sometimes u only have time to try what u think is best. Maybe a Vic Jr will still make higher peak pwr numbers while a Torqurer II could have the higher average pwr.

Next step up would be the Torquer II. I havent run it but had a friend using in on 9:1 383 in a '77 C3 that ran into the 10's. Car was pretty well gutted though. For a 400" motor and a 6100rpm cam a 6500rpm toTq II would be a better match and they fit under the C3 hood. Also i think owners are pretty much giving that manifold away.

PcolaPaul

Usually, single plane intakes make power at higher RPM's and require a bunch of gear, a loose converter if auto and a long duration cam.
That being said, I ran a junk small block with a small cam and stock converter with a single plane with a 1 inch spacer and an 850 Holley mechanical secondary carb that ran like a raped ape off idle till 6500 with 3.08 gears. It technically shouldn't have made any decent low end power but it did.
Nice thing about it, intake manifold swaps are easy and you can do it at the track if needed.

The Money Pit

I ran the Vic Jr on mine for a few years and the low end torque loss is another one of those internet wives tales,....to a degree. At the time I also had street 295 50 15's and had to feather the throttle from a dead stop, or the tires would just haze.

Later I put MT drag radials on, and with the added stick, that problem went away. But I do like to fiddle,..and for a while I was fiddling with carb and timing to try and get the best idle I could with my 254@.050 solid cam. During this process I went back to the RPM intake, and to be honest,..the top end loss wasn't that much when compared to the Vic Jr. It will still pull 7000 rpms just like the Vic Jr., but the low end is definitely more solid.

My Vette is street only,.....kind of. It idles like a Pro stocker, and turns heads everywhere. The reason I posted is because you mentioned your's was a street car too. My .02 is that you keep the RPM, and get better tires. I think that will be the best bang for the buck.

StraubTech

There was a lawsuit years ago....Edelbrock won and Wieand lost. Not much difference between the 2 intakes.

bluedawg

Odd, you'd figure they'd be longer. I can fit either under the hood though.

bluedawg

Manifold swaps are cheap and easy, good way to tinker.

bluedawg

It's the kind of part were I'm at, it's a street car, but I did enjoy running it at the test and tune, not that I want to race for points or devote every week end that im home to the drag strip, summer is only 4.5 months long up here and I work half if that in prudhoe. If it dont detract that much from the bottom end and adds some to the top, it might help me make my goal

bluedawg

Can you elaborate a little, patent infringement?

gdh

Which one did you buy? I also have a Torker which I initially used before adding an L88 hood. They are great little single plane intakes, the low height is a benefit for stock hoods, added a drop base air cleaner and 1/2" spacer.
I agree with Lars about the myth of losing a lot of low end tq by going with a single plane. It may be down a bit but the engine screamed at the upper ends. I was very happy that GM went with the single plane on their new ZZ383 engines (450/450). If it had of come with a dual, I would have swapped the Team G on right away.

MotorHead

I will go you one better. A swap from RPM Air Gap to Vic Jr netted me more torque across the board, only a couple of ft/lbs average but peak was about 15 ft/lbs, yes I have chassis dyno printouts.

We are getting older and have tried for a decade or more but this ol' wives tale I fear will live long past our demise

bluedawg

Ok so i didn't make it to the track with the 3.7s and the dual plane like I said I would, got ansi.

Enter the team g with 3/4" rise...


First I put the single plane on with a 1" spacer open spacer and had 2 degrees to much timing(it would slightly ping while launching with 23 degrees intial), it idled better than with the rpm air gap and seemed to pull at the top more but was super soft at the bottom( if you recall I backed the shift rpm down to 5700 for a better et from 6200), took the spacer out and backed the timing down 2 degrees and I can say at this point that yes the bottom end is still softer than the air gap, but the top end feels more like it will pull the 6200 rpm that i want to shift at and feels to make noticbly more power at the top. I never posted on this as I was always trying to figure it out, but with an air fuel gauge I was always trying to sort out the idle air fule ratio as it would show any were from 18 to 36 parts oxygen which is a sign that you have miss fire at idle. With multiple conversations with various forum members including DR lars Grimsfeld, it was determined that the only culprit could be a vaccum leak and after 12 intake gasket swaps and various other fixes that didn't work I figured it was just a case of the overlap and reversion that cause the bad o2 reading. I havn't had a chance to put the o2 sensor in the tail pipe, but it idles so much better that I would figure that there was an issue with the casting on the edelbrock rpm airgap. I cant wait to get it to the strip(my cheap dyno) and see the results, the best was a 12.64 with 109 mph before switching to wider tire(which lowered it to a 12.89 @ 107 mph) and from 3.08's to 3.70's which i hadn't got a chance to run since the swap but can't wait. The next step is to swap the xe288hr for a straub custom/. Now motorhead, I know that you don't like chris(has been a good dude to me) but after all the skirmish between everyone and chris and knowing that my cam maybe a little large formy compression ration, I decided that I would try one of chris's cam's and use the mph at the drag strip for my dyno. Now then you and chris don't have to get along and I don't care if you do, but I hope you can appreciate my testing since your the only dude I've ever heard of that pulled his engine back out to engine dyno just to prove his point.


Engine Specs:
Dart shp 400"
Callies crank and h beam rods
malhe pistons ( 9.2 to 1 and was suppose to be 10.2 but got Fu@k3d of due to an internet order)
comp xe288hr with lunati roller lifters
Afr 195 eliminators with a 64cc chamber
Weiand team g with 3/4'' rise
hooker 1.625'' comp header( Needs 1.75'')