Unhappy with BowTieOverdrives.com
04-28-2005, 06:08 PM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Unhappy with BowTieOverdrives.com
My other thread mentions the background to this posting:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...55&forum_id=48
I won't comment on the "quality" of the transmission I recieved from BowTieOverdrives.com, but I do want to detail my experiences with them so that other Forum members can be aware of what they're ordering should they follow the advice of previous posts I've found in the archives.
#1 I ordered a Stage II 700R4 two weeks ago, and it arrived basically on time. All was fine until I realized that they included the wrong tailshaft housing (vettes have a specific design). I was able to swap out the tailshaft housing from the old transmission, but there were other inconsistencies in output shaft length and how the tranny fit into the car overall that I am still unsatisfied with. I mentioned this to BowTieOverdrives.com in a phone conversation and "Steven" didn't pay it much attention. In fact, he seemed oblivious to what I was saying and apparently was unaware of the differences of design.
#2 Their website describes the 700R4 transmission as, and I quote: "We consider our Level One Transmission to be a precision remanufactured transmission with "fix-it" upgrades only. These transmissions are upgraded in those areas that will cure the common problems that have plagued these units over the years. These are great units for stock or lightly modified cars or trucks that are in need of a new transmission. Our Level One Transmission would be what you would expect from a local transmission shop who was asked to "rebuild" your transmission and install a kit to improve the shift timing and feel...."
Note that their level II trans is simply a beefed up version of this description. So I am expecting a like-originial transmission that is built to handle more power - a reasonable assumption based on their description, right?
Now neither on their website NOR on the written directions that I recieved was there any mention of the lack of a 2nd or 3rd gear converter lock-up function, which is the opposite of how the original transmission operated and the rebuild that I had done previously (both had full lockup capabilities). This lack of lockup in 2/3 gear absolutely necessitates a tight torque converter to prevent serious overheating and poor street manners. So my 3000 stall converter is not working very well, and making a TON of heat (not to mention the ~$500 it cost me). So at no time was there any mention of the deletion of this OEM function, but as you can gather it is a critical component to decent mileage and drivability especially when higher stalls are used.
I called BowTie to ask why my transmission wasn't locking up in third gear and the guy basically laughs at me, and says that "all aftermarket transmissions are setup this way." He also proceeded to argue that point, even though I pointed out that the original transmission and a previous rebuild from "a local transmission shop" also had the same functions. I was planning on and expecting this feature, hence the high stall converter, and he implied that I was an idiot for ordering such a high stall for a "street car," and that all I should have inherantly known that BowTie builds their transmissions without a 2-3 lockup function. Apparently only dirt track racers and pure drag cars should use BowTie's transmissions. Now go re-read the sales pitch I copied from thier website.
At no time did "Steven" apologize for the mixup on the tailshaft housing (much less admit that there was a mixup) or the TCC issue, the gist of the conversation was that I'm a stupid mother___er for not being a transmission expert or magically knowing how they build their 700R4s. Interestingly, it's a GM transmission that they're tweaking, so my assuption was that it would have the same characteristics. Obviously I was wrong, and specifying "corvette" on the order form didn't seem to help much either.
So now I have to live with a less efficient transmission and eat the $500 probuilt torque converter, AND get another one with an appropriate stall. I am NOT happy, at all, with this situation and advise anyone in the market for a transmission to seriously consider another reputable company before doing business with BowTie. In retrospect, I know I would have been better off simply taking the car to AAMCO. It would have been cheaper, faster, and far less stressful.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...55&forum_id=48
I won't comment on the "quality" of the transmission I recieved from BowTieOverdrives.com, but I do want to detail my experiences with them so that other Forum members can be aware of what they're ordering should they follow the advice of previous posts I've found in the archives.
#1 I ordered a Stage II 700R4 two weeks ago, and it arrived basically on time. All was fine until I realized that they included the wrong tailshaft housing (vettes have a specific design). I was able to swap out the tailshaft housing from the old transmission, but there were other inconsistencies in output shaft length and how the tranny fit into the car overall that I am still unsatisfied with. I mentioned this to BowTieOverdrives.com in a phone conversation and "Steven" didn't pay it much attention. In fact, he seemed oblivious to what I was saying and apparently was unaware of the differences of design.
#2 Their website describes the 700R4 transmission as, and I quote: "We consider our Level One Transmission to be a precision remanufactured transmission with "fix-it" upgrades only. These transmissions are upgraded in those areas that will cure the common problems that have plagued these units over the years. These are great units for stock or lightly modified cars or trucks that are in need of a new transmission. Our Level One Transmission would be what you would expect from a local transmission shop who was asked to "rebuild" your transmission and install a kit to improve the shift timing and feel...."
Note that their level II trans is simply a beefed up version of this description. So I am expecting a like-originial transmission that is built to handle more power - a reasonable assumption based on their description, right?
Now neither on their website NOR on the written directions that I recieved was there any mention of the lack of a 2nd or 3rd gear converter lock-up function, which is the opposite of how the original transmission operated and the rebuild that I had done previously (both had full lockup capabilities). This lack of lockup in 2/3 gear absolutely necessitates a tight torque converter to prevent serious overheating and poor street manners. So my 3000 stall converter is not working very well, and making a TON of heat (not to mention the ~$500 it cost me). So at no time was there any mention of the deletion of this OEM function, but as you can gather it is a critical component to decent mileage and drivability especially when higher stalls are used.
I called BowTie to ask why my transmission wasn't locking up in third gear and the guy basically laughs at me, and says that "all aftermarket transmissions are setup this way." He also proceeded to argue that point, even though I pointed out that the original transmission and a previous rebuild from "a local transmission shop" also had the same functions. I was planning on and expecting this feature, hence the high stall converter, and he implied that I was an idiot for ordering such a high stall for a "street car," and that all I should have inherantly known that BowTie builds their transmissions without a 2-3 lockup function. Apparently only dirt track racers and pure drag cars should use BowTie's transmissions. Now go re-read the sales pitch I copied from thier website.
At no time did "Steven" apologize for the mixup on the tailshaft housing (much less admit that there was a mixup) or the TCC issue, the gist of the conversation was that I'm a stupid mother___er for not being a transmission expert or magically knowing how they build their 700R4s. Interestingly, it's a GM transmission that they're tweaking, so my assuption was that it would have the same characteristics. Obviously I was wrong, and specifying "corvette" on the order form didn't seem to help much either.
So now I have to live with a less efficient transmission and eat the $500 probuilt torque converter, AND get another one with an appropriate stall. I am NOT happy, at all, with this situation and advise anyone in the market for a transmission to seriously consider another reputable company before doing business with BowTie. In retrospect, I know I would have been better off simply taking the car to AAMCO. It would have been cheaper, faster, and far less stressful.
04-28-2005, 06:27 PM
#2
Race Director
Member Since: Sep 2000
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It sounds as though you have confirmed my suspicions. Aren't glad you didn't spend a day or two, trouble shooting and chasing your tail, for nothing? How radical is your converter? I have a 2600 rpm stall Vigilanti, and I don't have problems around town. My beefed trans doesn't lock the TCC until 4th gear, either.
RACE ON!!!
RACE ON!!!
04-28-2005, 06:31 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
i just hope mad dog isn't the same way when i deal with them...
this story...complete crap...if i was running such a business, i would go OUT OF MY WAY AND THEN SOME to ensure my customers were satisfied, by any and all means nessesary....that my friends, is how you keep customers and attract new ones...i think bowtie should be taken into the forest, strapped to a tree and smothered with honey, and left for the bears...
this story...complete crap...if i was running such a business, i would go OUT OF MY WAY AND THEN SOME to ensure my customers were satisfied, by any and all means nessesary....that my friends, is how you keep customers and attract new ones...i think bowtie should be taken into the forest, strapped to a tree and smothered with honey, and left for the bears...
04-28-2005, 06:46 PM
#4
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I got ahold of the office manager- and I got the same "what the hell is your problem" attitude. Now granted, I'm not in the best of moods, but I very much felt like I had to defend my integrity to these chumps. The office manager refused to acknowledge that my transmission DID in fact lock up in 2nd/3rd gear. We got into an arguement as to whether or not my converter would lock up in 2/3 gear - followed again by the implication that I was an idiot for ordering a 3000RPM stall and that he didn't understand why I would want my transmission to have the lockup features anyway. I tried to explain my reasonings to him - but to no avail. His claim was that, "in ten years" he's never heard of his customers having an issue with lock up in 2nd/3rd gear. He did later admit to knowing that this feature was "only in 84-86 corvettes - those transmissions were junk so they got rid of that." He then told me to swap the wiring harness in the transmission... and see if I liked it then.
I don't know what years/models had the 2nd/3rd lock-up function and how Vette-specific that really is, but I am definitely unimpressed with the customer service.
I don't know what years/models had the 2nd/3rd lock-up function and how Vette-specific that really is, but I am definitely unimpressed with the customer service.
04-28-2005, 06:46 PM
#5
Safety Car
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I'm very surprised. I would have though the exact same thing when reading their website on a level 1 or 2 transmission. I was actually going to order from them before I changed my mind and bought one from the dealer. I felt safer doing it this way. Sorry for your troubles. This just sucks !
04-28-2005, 07:41 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by Ramanstud
- followed again by the implication that I was an idiot for ordering a 3000RPM stall
RACE ON!!!
04-28-2005, 08:36 PM
#8
Pro
Bowler Transmission is not too far away, I would call them, I'm sure they can take care of it for you. http://www.bowlertransmission.com/
They build trannys for Rad Rides by Troy, Jesse James, other big name builders and did a great job rebuilding and swapping my old TH2004R into my dads 78 Olds to give him OD in place of his TH350 after he put 3:42 gears in it.
They build trannys for Rad Rides by Troy, Jesse James, other big name builders and did a great job rebuilding and swapping my old TH2004R into my dads 78 Olds to give him OD in place of his TH350 after he put 3:42 gears in it.
04-28-2005, 09:11 PM
#9
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Well I'm going to try and "swap" the old internal transmission "harness" into the new transmission, but I am skeptical how this will translate over and if it will work. As of now, I've just spliced in a manual TCC switch for third gear (helps some in town).
If I can't swap harnesses, then I imagine I will be forced to go back to the OEM converter and live with poor gas mileage and sub-par performance. Why on EARTH would anyone want that lock up stuff???
As for BowTie making amends: I wouldn't expect them to refund my money or really do anything at all, but I was definitely blown away with the general attitude of the "tech support" staff and the Office manager. I think that had they apologized for the errors and explained the apparent rarity of the 2nd/3rd lockup functions in Vettes only, and explained to me the best ways to possibly fix the situation I suppose I would have been more impressed. But questioning my character, my intelligence, and whether or not I know what "lock up" actually is simply served to enfuriate me further. Hell the office manager didn't believe me when I told him I could modify the TCC traits by reprogramming the ECM!
In retrospect, offering to sell me a reduced-cost BowTie converter or something similar probably would have gone a long way, but the effort and interest of rectifying the situation was simply not there on their part. Ironically, "steve" suggested I get a 2600 stall converter - that's a huge improvement over the 3000 stall for sure.... geesh.
I suppose I've said my peace, and I hope the rest of you guys will give pause the next time you consider an online tranny company. Also, verify your applications and any fitment issues over the phone if possible. I did the same thing, but managed to still screw it up!
If I can't swap harnesses, then I imagine I will be forced to go back to the OEM converter and live with poor gas mileage and sub-par performance. Why on EARTH would anyone want that lock up stuff???
As for BowTie making amends: I wouldn't expect them to refund my money or really do anything at all, but I was definitely blown away with the general attitude of the "tech support" staff and the Office manager. I think that had they apologized for the errors and explained the apparent rarity of the 2nd/3rd lockup functions in Vettes only, and explained to me the best ways to possibly fix the situation I suppose I would have been more impressed. But questioning my character, my intelligence, and whether or not I know what "lock up" actually is simply served to enfuriate me further. Hell the office manager didn't believe me when I told him I could modify the TCC traits by reprogramming the ECM!
In retrospect, offering to sell me a reduced-cost BowTie converter or something similar probably would have gone a long way, but the effort and interest of rectifying the situation was simply not there on their part. Ironically, "steve" suggested I get a 2600 stall converter - that's a huge improvement over the 3000 stall for sure.... geesh.
I suppose I've said my peace, and I hope the rest of you guys will give pause the next time you consider an online tranny company. Also, verify your applications and any fitment issues over the phone if possible. I did the same thing, but managed to still screw it up!
Last edited by Ramanstud; 04-28-2005 at 09:15 PM.
04-28-2005, 09:53 PM
#10
Pro
I remember having a similar situation when I put a 700R4 into my 86 Monte SS, it would not lock-up when I put the ZZ4 prom in, it locked up in 4th only before that, ended up having to use a different connector to get it to lock up in 3rd/4th. Something about the 2004R using a normally open instead of a normally closed switch for 3rd or 4th. Mr. Goodwrench figured it out in about 30 minutes, but that was ten years ago.
04-29-2005, 10:47 AM
#11
Safety Car
That sucks and I can't believe they are treating you this way. I have used there products in the past with great results but the way they are treating you is just plain wrong. Now for the better news, just swap in your old harness as well as moving the lock up switch in the trany to the original location and use either a new or re-use your lock up syl. (Because they tie thier ground straight to the housing) and it will work fine. If I wasn't out of the country I could give you a call and walk you through it. If you can hold off a week I would be more then glad to send you my 700R bok and instructions for everything you need to do. The reason I know this area is beacause I installed their lock up kit into my 84 when I went to the LT1 motor and know every thing that was changed. e-mail me if you need help, I will be back in the US on the 5th.
04-29-2005, 11:10 AM
#12
Race Director
read my thread here
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1068730
and especially note the 9th post down (posted by Pete K)
and to think, i almost went with BTO - as they came highly recommended by bryan seery!
i guess if i were an expert transmission rebuilder, i could specify exactly which "upgrades" i would like, and exactly how i would like it built - but hell, if i were an expert transmission builder, i would have rebuilt the damn thing myself!
you are probably right about aamco - but i chose a local company that XTREME motorsports recommended - so i'll report back to the community with my findings in about a week (i'm dropping the car off tonight and will be out of town next week so won't get the car until next friday)
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1068730
and especially note the 9th post down (posted by Pete K)
and to think, i almost went with BTO - as they came highly recommended by bryan seery!
i guess if i were an expert transmission rebuilder, i could specify exactly which "upgrades" i would like, and exactly how i would like it built - but hell, if i were an expert transmission builder, i would have rebuilt the damn thing myself!
you are probably right about aamco - but i chose a local company that XTREME motorsports recommended - so i'll report back to the community with my findings in about a week (i'm dropping the car off tonight and will be out of town next week so won't get the car until next friday)
04-29-2005, 09:39 PM
#13
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by FD2BLK
That sucks and I can't believe they are treating you this way. I have used there products in the past with great results but the way they are treating you is just plain wrong. Now for the better news, just swap in your old harness as well as moving the lock up switch in the trany to the original location and use either a new or re-use your lock up syl. (Because they tie thier ground straight to the housing) and it will work fine. If I wasn't out of the country I could give you a call and walk you through it. If you can hold off a week I would be more then glad to send you my 700R bok and instructions for everything you need to do. The reason I know this area is beacause I installed their lock up kit into my 84 when I went to the LT1 motor and know every thing that was changed. e-mail me if you need help, I will be back in the US on the 5th.
I did salvage the wiring harness and solenoid from the old tranny, but I'm not quite sure where the "old" location is versus the "new" location for the lockup switch? I made notes on the old one and I'll be pulling the pan later this week to compare - I'll get back to you if/when I run into problems.Thanks again
04-29-2005, 09:42 PM
#14
You will also need the pressure switches that are in the valve body that matches your old trans harness. Do not mix them up. Some are normally open and some are normally closed. They look identical so keep them seperate.
04-29-2005, 10:46 PM
#15
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Pete K
You will also need the pressure switches that are in the valve body that matches your old trans harness. Do not mix them up. Some are normally open and some are normally closed. They look identical so keep them seperate.
Hmmm... well then I'm sunk for now. The old tranny is long gone and I only salvaged the harness and solenoid itself (per the advice of BTO). Any advice for getting replacements or modifying the current ones - maybe I can smoothtalk BTO into getting me some?
04-29-2005, 10:48 PM
#16
If possible post a pic of the harness and give me the year of the trans. I may be able to figure it out for you in the morning. I have been boozing and am not the sharpest knife in the drawer tonight. 
