421 Build. A few changes.
08-23-2008, 09:33 PM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
421 Build. A few changes.
Most of you know I have changed my mind several times in regards to what engine to build. Last year I had my mind set on a 383, but was somewhat screwed over by the engine builder who was located outside of Rome NY.
Since then Jim and I decided that 421 cubes was the way to go. The build has been going flawless except my lifters for the bowtie block have been on backorder for approx. 6 weeks now.
I have since been talking to Tony from AFR who has recommended that I sell the 195cc AFR street ports, and go with the 195cc AFR competition ports. He advices that the comp ports will raise the power band approx. 20 hp. I will be also ditching the 230/230 cam and going with a split duration 236/242 on a 113 lobe seperation. I am in no hurry in getting this finished as my wife is expecting in 4 weeks, and we are buying tons of baby things.
Our goals with the old combo was approx. 430rwhp/450rwtq. With the new combo, We are aiming at more like 460rwhp/445rwtq with excellent street manners. I personally would love to see 470rwhp, but I doubt it. For your information, these new heads will be flowed as so were my AFR 1040's. I find it incredibly that there is a 195cc head on the market that will flow 300cfm/225cfm. With that kick *** port velocity of the comp ports this thing is going to have crazy power under the curve.
When I get the heads flowed I will post the numbers.
There is a lot of thought that goes into a build when it's from scratch. I am very greatful to have Tony and Jim by myside to assist me in making decisions. It will be very interesting to see how this thing performs.
Beach Bum. Could you post the predicted 1/4 mile times with the 3.45 gears?
Have a good one guys!
Since then Jim and I decided that 421 cubes was the way to go. The build has been going flawless except my lifters for the bowtie block have been on backorder for approx. 6 weeks now.
I have since been talking to Tony from AFR who has recommended that I sell the 195cc AFR street ports, and go with the 195cc AFR competition ports. He advices that the comp ports will raise the power band approx. 20 hp. I will be also ditching the 230/230 cam and going with a split duration 236/242 on a 113 lobe seperation. I am in no hurry in getting this finished as my wife is expecting in 4 weeks, and we are buying tons of baby things.
Our goals with the old combo was approx. 430rwhp/450rwtq. With the new combo, We are aiming at more like 460rwhp/445rwtq with excellent street manners. I personally would love to see 470rwhp, but I doubt it. For your information, these new heads will be flowed as so were my AFR 1040's. I find it incredibly that there is a 195cc head on the market that will flow 300cfm/225cfm. With that kick *** port velocity of the comp ports this thing is going to have crazy power under the curve.
When I get the heads flowed I will post the numbers.
There is a lot of thought that goes into a build when it's from scratch. I am very greatful to have Tony and Jim by myside to assist me in making decisions. It will be very interesting to see how this thing performs.
Beach Bum. Could you post the predicted 1/4 mile times with the 3.45 gears?
Have a good one guys!
Last edited by 88BlackZ-51; 08-25-2008 at 04:16 AM.
08-24-2008, 12:30 AM
#4
Former Vendor
Actually, only torque which he will have plenty of (a 427 will make about 8 more ft/lbs). A bigger motor doesn't guarantee more HP, only a little more low/midrange TQ (assuming the same induction and exhaust which really governs how much air you can move and the HP the engine is capable of generating).
Even a 406 would make similar power (with the same intake, heads, and exhaust) but it wont make as much torque (down some 25 ft/lbs from the 427) . The smaller motor just makes the power slightly higher in the RPM band.
The difference between a 421 and a 427 will be negligible on the street and it would run the same at the track. With street tires it may just help get the power hooked a little quicker....at some point you have so much torque your losing races to cars with 100 less horsepower because you can't put the power to the ground. That can get frustrating after roasting the hides at will in any of the lower gears starts to lose its lustre....LOL
I'm looking forward to seeing the new combo come together....it should be very docile yet really rip when you lay into it. A perfect street combo...
Tony
Even a 406 would make similar power (with the same intake, heads, and exhaust) but it wont make as much torque (down some 25 ft/lbs from the 427) . The smaller motor just makes the power slightly higher in the RPM band.
The difference between a 421 and a 427 will be negligible on the street and it would run the same at the track. With street tires it may just help get the power hooked a little quicker....at some point you have so much torque your losing races to cars with 100 less horsepower because you can't put the power to the ground. That can get frustrating after roasting the hides at will in any of the lower gears starts to lose its lustre....LOL
I'm looking forward to seeing the new combo come together....it should be very docile yet really rip when you lay into it. A perfect street combo...
Tony
08-24-2008, 01:25 AM
#5
Safety Car
Actually, with his 4.155" bore, if he moved from the 3.875" stroke to a 4.00" stroke crank, he would have a 434 sbc, not the 427. jsup, you must be staying with the 4.125" bore with a 4.00" stroke, which is a 427.....
I don't remember what the sim said on your set-up, I didn't save it.... If I remember right, on your street tires, it was somewhere around mid 11's at well over 120 mph..... which might take some practice considering you have a manual transmission coupled with your street tires, but very doable.....
I don't remember what the sim said on your set-up, I didn't save it.... If I remember right, on your street tires, it was somewhere around mid 11's at well over 120 mph..... which might take some practice considering you have a manual transmission coupled with your street tires, but very doable.....
Last edited by Beach Bum; 08-24-2008 at 01:27 AM.
08-24-2008, 01:41 AM
#6
Race Director
Thread Starter
Actually, with his 4.155" bore, if he moved from the 3.875" stroke to a 4.00" stroke crank, he would have a 434 sbc, not the 427. jsup, you must be staying with the 4.125" bore with a 4.00" stroke, which is a 427.....
I don't remember what the sim said on your set-up, I didn't save it.... If I remember right, on your street tires, it was somewhere around mid 11's at well over 120 mph..... which might take some practice considering you have a manual transmission coupled with your street tires, but very doable.....
I don't remember what the sim said on your set-up, I didn't save it.... If I remember right, on your street tires, it was somewhere around mid 11's at well over 120 mph..... which might take some practice considering you have a manual transmission coupled with your street tires, but very doable.....
08-24-2008, 03:23 AM
#7
Former Vendor
Assuming perhaps conservatively 570 at the flywheel and a raceweight of 3750 w/ driver (not sure what your car weighs), it should run a trap speed of 121 MPH and with street tires likely ET around 11.50.....low elevens with ET streets, or ET street radials on a decent prepped track. A couple of tick's behind the MUCH lighter C6Z06 (which actually makes a little less power and not even close to the low/midrange torque and response you will have). The huge weight disparity is whats killing you....
Is my guess on the weight of your car close or off by a country mile?
Tony
Is my guess on the weight of your car close or off by a country mile?
Tony
08-24-2008, 07:08 AM
#8
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Posts: 35,065
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually, only torque which he will have plenty of (a 427 will make about 8 more ft/lbs). A bigger motor doesn't guarantee more HP, only a little more low/midrange TQ (assuming the same induction and exhaust which really governs how much air you can move and the HP the engine is capable of generating).
Even a 406 would make similar power (with the same intake, heads, and exhaust) but it wont make as much torque (down some 25 ft/lbs from the 427) . The smaller motor just makes the power slightly higher in the RPM band.
The difference between a 421 and a 427 will be negligible on the street and it would run the same at the track. With street tires it may just help get the power hooked a little quicker....at some point you have so much torque your losing races to cars with 100 less horsepower because you can't put the power to the ground. That can get frustrating after roasting the hides at will in any of the lower gears starts to lose its lustre....LOL
I'm looking forward to seeing the new combo come together....it should be very docile yet really rip when you lay into it. A perfect street combo...
Tony
Even a 406 would make similar power (with the same intake, heads, and exhaust) but it wont make as much torque (down some 25 ft/lbs from the 427) . The smaller motor just makes the power slightly higher in the RPM band.
The difference between a 421 and a 427 will be negligible on the street and it would run the same at the track. With street tires it may just help get the power hooked a little quicker....at some point you have so much torque your losing races to cars with 100 less horsepower because you can't put the power to the ground. That can get frustrating after roasting the hides at will in any of the lower gears starts to lose its lustre....LOL
I'm looking forward to seeing the new combo come together....it should be very docile yet really rip when you lay into it. A perfect street combo...
Tony
Last edited by jsup; 08-24-2008 at 07:38 AM.
08-24-2008, 07:23 AM
#9
Most of you know I have changed my mind several times in regards to what engine to build. Last year I had my mind set on a 383, but was somewhat screwed over by the engine builder who was located outside of Rome NY. Since then Jim and I decided that 421 cubes was the way to go. The build has been going flawless except my lifters for the bowtie block have been on backorder for approx. 6 weeks now. I have since been talking to Tony from AFR who has recommended that I sell the 195cc AFR street ports, and go with the 195cc AFR competition ports. He advices that the comp ports will raise the power band approx. 20 hp. I will be also ditching the 230/230 cam and going with a split duration 236/242 on a 113 lobe seperation. I am in no hurry in getting this finished as my wife is expecting in 4 weeks, and we are buying tons of baby things. Our goals with the old combo was approx. 430rwhp/450rwtq. With the new combo, We are aiming at more like 460rwhp/445rwtq with excellent street manners. I personally would love to see 470rwhp, but I doubt it. For your information, these new heads will be flowed as so were my AFR 1040's. I find it incredibly that there is a 195cc head on the market that will flow 300cfm/225cfm. With that kick *** port velocity of the comp ports this thing is going to have crazy power under the curve. When I get the heads flowed I will post the numbers. There is a lot of thought that goes into a build when it's from scratch. I am very greatful to have Tony and Jim by myside to assist me in making decisions. It will be very interesting to see how this thing performs. Beach Bum. Could you post the predicted 1/4 mile times with the 3.45 gears? Have a good one guys!
Now we're talkin!!
The comp port + 236/242 cam I agree should break 450RWHP and hit 125MPH
My car hit 119MPH with no cool down on a hot sticky day making only 405RWHP 3600lbs race weight with only 2 passes so Im sure you should hit 125 no problem.
*update* I knew my 393 short block was hurtin and holding back my AFRheads/cam combo so I decided to pull the motor out last week. THE RINGS WERE COMPLETELY FRIED!!!! No crosshatch left at all either!!!
Shes getting fresh bearings, rings, block machined and a cam in the 240/246 range to replace my 230/236 cam.
Should be at the track late September and we'll see what those heads are REALLY made of!
I'm thinking a little more then 405RWHP this time around.
08-24-2008, 08:59 AM
#10
Race Director
Thread Starter
Assuming perhaps conservatively 570 at the flywheel and a raceweight of 3750 w/ driver (not sure what your car weighs), it should run a trap speed of 121 MPH and with street tires likely ET around 11.50.....low elevens with ET streets, or ET street radials on a decent prepped track. A couple of tick's behind the MUCH lighter C6Z06 (which actually makes a little less power and not even close to the low/midrange torque and response you will have). The huge weight disparity is whats killing you....
Is my guess on the weight of your car close or off by a country mile?
Tony
Is my guess on the weight of your car close or off by a country mile?
Tony
08-24-2008, 09:37 AM
#11
Le Mans Master
Not to sound like a jerk, but wouldn't it make more sense to come up with some power and cost goals, and then build an engine to that?
If you sell parts to get different ones every time you realize more power will be had, well that can go on forever. Unless your goal is to have the most powerful C4 ever built, or to spend the most money on unused parts, this seems like a poor strategy?
If you sell parts to get different ones every time you realize more power will be had, well that can go on forever. Unless your goal is to have the most powerful C4 ever built, or to spend the most money on unused parts, this seems like a poor strategy?
08-24-2008, 10:30 AM
#12
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Posts: 35,065
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not to sound like a jerk, but wouldn't it make more sense to come up with some power and cost goals, and then build an engine to that?
If you sell parts to get different ones every time you realize more power will be had, well that can go on forever. Unless your goal is to have the most powerful C4 ever built, or to spend the most money on unused parts, this seems like a poor strategy?
If you sell parts to get different ones every time you realize more power will be had, well that can go on forever. Unless your goal is to have the most powerful C4 ever built, or to spend the most money on unused parts, this seems like a poor strategy?
08-24-2008, 10:51 AM
#13
Former Vendor
Should trap closer to 124 then.....11.30's on a good run with street tires (2.0's sixty foot) and loooow elevens on a DOT cheater slick. May even run mid elevens on a regular radial....traction is going to be a serious issue. Trap speed wont change much however (a direct indicator of power to weight) as its not effected much by the first 100 feet of the run.
That puts the car door to door with new C6Z06 in a chase down the freeway...
-Tony
That puts the car door to door with new C6Z06 in a chase down the freeway...
-Tony
08-24-2008, 03:27 PM
#16
Pro
88blackz-51 this thing is very close to my build ,are you waiting to for the comp cams 8953-16 also ? mine have been on order for 2 months and nothing yet .Tony from afr is a awesome guy he has helped me out big time when he really didn't have to ,what he did for me will never be forgotten .it just proves what i have known all along that hands down afr makes the best performance cylinder head in the world and no one else even comes close imo and there customer service is second to none .
.it just proves what i have known all along that hands down afr makes the best performance cylinder head in the world and no one else even comes close imo and there customer service is second to none .
08-24-2008, 03:45 PM
#17
Le Mans Master
1) He did, but since he has had so much down time and a slow build he has had WAY too much time to change his mind.
2) What I actually disagree is with your second comment (quoted above.) In my experience, there are very few who actually build a motor and say, ahh thats it. Most, especially those on here, build/mod a motor and say, damn thats quick...I wonder what _____ would do with it. So in contrast, by selling the heads now, unused he is eliminating 20-30% of that 50% depreciation parts seem to have once they are used (even barely at all.)
In other words, by selling them now while they are worth more he is actually spending less money and time than he would in the long run if he ran the motor and then swapped em out anyway.
Yes, there is a reason why I know this to be true.
Looking forward to seeing your results!
08-24-2008, 04:41 PM
#18
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Posts: 35,065
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I actually would have to disagree. With you on two counts.
1) He did, but since he has had so much down time and a slow build he has had WAY too much time to change his mind.
2) What I actually disagree is with your second comment (quoted above.) In my experience, there are very few who actually build a motor and say, ahh thats it. Most, especially those on here, build/mod a motor and say, damn thats quick...I wonder what _____ would do with it. So in contrast, by selling the heads now, unused he is eliminating 20-30% of that 50% depreciation parts seem to have once they are used (even barely at all.)
In other words, by selling them now while they are worth more he is actually spending less money and time than he would in the long run if he ran the motor and then swapped em out anyway.
Yes, there is a reason why I know this to be true.
Looking forward to seeing your results!
1) He did, but since he has had so much down time and a slow build he has had WAY too much time to change his mind.
2) What I actually disagree is with your second comment (quoted above.) In my experience, there are very few who actually build a motor and say, ahh thats it. Most, especially those on here, build/mod a motor and say, damn thats quick...I wonder what _____ would do with it. So in contrast, by selling the heads now, unused he is eliminating 20-30% of that 50% depreciation parts seem to have once they are used (even barely at all.)
In other words, by selling them now while they are worth more he is actually spending less money and time than he would in the long run if he ran the motor and then swapped em out anyway.
Yes, there is a reason why I know this to be true.
Looking forward to seeing your results!
This isn't, IMO a case of too long a build, it's a case of marketing over substance. Seems the builder is now in control, I hope, and some good advice he is giving is being adhered to. Otherwise, with the next best thing being marketed, we'd see yet another change.
08-24-2008, 04:55 PM
#19
Former Vendor
Oh no, I do not believe that is the case at all. I believe that with research and a clear plan you can build something once and get what you want. Now, of course, things to manifest themselves in real life as they do on paper, however.....you can get fairly close.
This isn't, IMO a case of too long a build, it's a case of marketing over substance. Seems the builder is now in control, I hope, and some good advice he is giving is being adhered to. Otherwise, with the next best thing being marketed, we'd see yet another change.
This isn't, IMO a case of too long a build, it's a case of marketing over substance. Seems the builder is now in control, I hope, and some good advice he is giving is being adhered to. Otherwise, with the next best thing being marketed, we'd see yet another change.
The race goes down at "high noon".....LOL
The performance related Internet boards....a soap opera for men
-Tony
08-24-2008, 05:10 PM
#20
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Posts: 35,065
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You two guys seriously need to get to the same track together when all this hoopala clears and both of you have finished your projects....I think all of us might be willing to donate some cash to pay for the gas and transportation fees....the entertainment value of the ensuing results would be worth every penny.
The race goes down at "high noon".....LOL
The performance related Internet boards....a soap opera for men
-Tony
The race goes down at "high noon".....LOL
The performance related Internet boards....a soap opera for men
-Tony
Great response....
I will be ready after my D44 and trans upgrade. I'm about $4K away.
Last edited by jsup; 08-24-2008 at 05:18 PM.