Crank Pulley Change -- Review Procedure Please
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Crank Pulley Change -- Review Procedure Please
Well, my replacement Helms manuals finally came in and I am about to change my crank pulley. Can someone look over this procedure, and please tell me if there is something I am leaving out. BTW, the my crank shaft is supposed to be pinned on one side. I tried to look at it, but the crank bolt appears to be covering the pinned area.
Steps:
1.) Put M6 transmission in 4th and pull parking brake. Do I still need to buy GM's J 42386-A tool to lock the fly?
2.) With steering rack removed, remove crank bolt from center of balancer.
3.) Mark the position of the balancer against the crank shaft. I'm guessing I will mark the position of the balancer before I pull the bolt out in the event it moves.
4.) Pull the balancer with tool. Do I need to use GM's J-41816 tool, or will one from a local place work? Even with the pin that should be in there, it should slide right out, correct?
5.) Transfer balancer weights and marks from old pulley to new one.
6.) Change crank seal (different discussion, but I should have that one).
7.) Align the new balancer to the crank with the marks on both.
8.) Insert old bolt and tighten down.
9.) Remove balancer bolt and insert crank pinning tool to drill crank and balancer. Drill crank and balancer and insert pin.
10.) Install the new crank bolt by either the 37 ft-lb plus 140 degrees or another similar method. I may just hit it with a good impact and try to get it over 240 ft-lbs. I have an IR Thunder Gun that can put out 625 ft-lbs.
What does everyone think. I'm sorry if this is long, but at least all the comments will stay on the board for others to look at. Thanks.
Steps:
1.) Put M6 transmission in 4th and pull parking brake. Do I still need to buy GM's J 42386-A tool to lock the fly?
2.) With steering rack removed, remove crank bolt from center of balancer.
3.) Mark the position of the balancer against the crank shaft. I'm guessing I will mark the position of the balancer before I pull the bolt out in the event it moves.
4.) Pull the balancer with tool. Do I need to use GM's J-41816 tool, or will one from a local place work? Even with the pin that should be in there, it should slide right out, correct?
5.) Transfer balancer weights and marks from old pulley to new one.
6.) Change crank seal (different discussion, but I should have that one).
7.) Align the new balancer to the crank with the marks on both.
8.) Insert old bolt and tighten down.
9.) Remove balancer bolt and insert crank pinning tool to drill crank and balancer. Drill crank and balancer and insert pin.
10.) Install the new crank bolt by either the 37 ft-lb plus 140 degrees or another similar method. I may just hit it with a good impact and try to get it over 240 ft-lbs. I have an IR Thunder Gun that can put out 625 ft-lbs.
What does everyone think. I'm sorry if this is long, but at least all the comments will stay on the board for others to look at. Thanks.
#2
Racer
Thread Starter
While I'm at it, does anyone know if the J41478 crankshaft front oil seal installer is needed to put the front seal in? Couldn't I just carefully tap it with something else. If not, does anyone know how much this tool costs?
#3
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Jan 2002
Location: The Woodlands Texas
Posts: 885
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having recently done this to my 2001 here are my comments -
1. You do not need the flywheel lock from GM. You will need a breaker bar and a 3ft cheater pipe. Placing the car in 4th gear with both wheels on the ground and the e-brake locked PLUS wheel chocks is fine.
2. Slide steering rack out into the passenger side wheel well and let it dangle.
3. No need to mark the balancer as each balancer is balanced by GM and there is no position required - just install the new one.
4. Local shop puller will work fine. Autozone or O'Reilley's will lend you one for free. There is not a pin on the balancer from GM. Pinning the balancer is an aftermarket effort made by the vast hosed vette owners who do what GM should have done in the first place. But it is not necessary to pin the balancer unless you are running a lot of HP.
5. No, you are installing a brand new balancer. Throw the old one in the trash can and install the new one.
6. Yes, and you will need to pull the front engine cover so purchase a gasket kit for the cover as well.
7. No marks required - just position the new balancer onto the crankshaft and install it.
8. Yes.
9. Yes, if you want to pin the new balancer.
10. I was only able to get 210lbs on my torque wrench - never got the 140 degree rotation called for in my Helms manual. My tuner shop - MTI - says they just wail away with the impact until the air compressor coughs and call it a day. Do not over-torque or you can break the bolt off in the end of the crank shaft and that means another set of problems.
When reinstalling the engine cover be sure to apply high temp RTV to the bottom of the cover so it will seal as there is not a gasket on that surface. The rest is a piece of cake, just takes time and some patience.
Good luck.
1. You do not need the flywheel lock from GM. You will need a breaker bar and a 3ft cheater pipe. Placing the car in 4th gear with both wheels on the ground and the e-brake locked PLUS wheel chocks is fine.
2. Slide steering rack out into the passenger side wheel well and let it dangle.
3. No need to mark the balancer as each balancer is balanced by GM and there is no position required - just install the new one.
4. Local shop puller will work fine. Autozone or O'Reilley's will lend you one for free. There is not a pin on the balancer from GM. Pinning the balancer is an aftermarket effort made by the vast hosed vette owners who do what GM should have done in the first place. But it is not necessary to pin the balancer unless you are running a lot of HP.
5. No, you are installing a brand new balancer. Throw the old one in the trash can and install the new one.
6. Yes, and you will need to pull the front engine cover so purchase a gasket kit for the cover as well.
7. No marks required - just position the new balancer onto the crankshaft and install it.
8. Yes.
9. Yes, if you want to pin the new balancer.
10. I was only able to get 210lbs on my torque wrench - never got the 140 degree rotation called for in my Helms manual. My tuner shop - MTI - says they just wail away with the impact until the air compressor coughs and call it a day. Do not over-torque or you can break the bolt off in the end of the crank shaft and that means another set of problems.
When reinstalling the engine cover be sure to apply high temp RTV to the bottom of the cover so it will seal as there is not a gasket on that surface. The rest is a piece of cake, just takes time and some patience.
Good luck.
#6
Drifting
Make certain that the steering wheel does not turn while the rack is out.
Tapped my seal in without special tool.
Impact gun is your friend.
Pin the crank, then you don't need to worry about the torque.
Do not use old bolt to install pulley.
Tapped my seal in without special tool.
Impact gun is your friend.
Pin the crank, then you don't need to worry about the torque.
Do not use old bolt to install pulley.
#7
#8
Team Owner
Well, my replacement Helms manuals finally came in and I am about to change my crank pulley. Can someone look over this procedure, and please tell me if there is something I am leaving out. BTW, the my crank shaft is supposed to be pinned on one side. I tried to look at it, but the crank bolt appears to be covering the pinned area. This could be an issue as the new balancer will either need milling or drilling depending on the type of pin setup you have.
Steps:
1.) Put M6 transmission in 4th and pull parking brake. Do I still need to buy GM's J 42386-A tool to lock the fly? Not with a stick.
2.) With steering rack removed, remove crank bolt from center of balancer.
3.) Mark the position of the balancer against the crank shaft. I'm guessing I will mark the position of the balancer before I pull the bolt out in the event it moves. It won't move, especially since its pinned. Once the bolts is out, match mark the shaft to the balancer.
4.) Pull the balancer with tool. Do I need to use GM's J-41816 tool, or will one from a local place work? Even with the pin that should be in there, it should slide right out, correct? Depends on the pin type. Also, don't use the original crank bolt for this, use something that will fit inside the ID of the balancer so there is no load put on the threads. Too many guys have buggered the threads using the old bolt to push on with the puller.
5.) Transfer balancer weights and marks from old pulley to new one. Depending on the type of pinning used (unless you don't plan to re-pin) you may now need to send the balancer out for machining.
6.) Change crank seal (different discussion, but I should have that one).
7.) Align the new balancer to the crank with the marks on both.
8.) Insert old bolt and tighten down. NO!!! This is where guys get into trouble. Don't use the old bolt to install, you need to make an install tool or rent one. Here is mine. If you use the old bolt you will ruin the threads. The old bolt is use to ensure the balancer is bottomed after installation.
9.) Remove balancer bolt and insert crank pinning tool to drill crank and balancer. Drill crank and balancer and insert pin. As long as you have the end on pin setup as opposed to the ATI pin setup.
10.) Install the new crank bolt by either the 37 ft-lb plus 140 degrees or another similar method. I may just hit it with a good impact and try to get it over 240 ft-lbs. I have an IR Thunder Gun that can put out 625 ft-lbs. NO. The installation is not torque based, it is rotation based. Correct preload can only be obtained by rotation. Measuring torque is not the same thing as it is totally based off of thread friction. GM did this to ensure correct bolt stretch (preload) is achieved.
What does everyone think. I'm sorry if this is long, but at least all the comments will stay on the board for others to look at. Thanks.
Steps:
1.) Put M6 transmission in 4th and pull parking brake. Do I still need to buy GM's J 42386-A tool to lock the fly? Not with a stick.
2.) With steering rack removed, remove crank bolt from center of balancer.
3.) Mark the position of the balancer against the crank shaft. I'm guessing I will mark the position of the balancer before I pull the bolt out in the event it moves. It won't move, especially since its pinned. Once the bolts is out, match mark the shaft to the balancer.
4.) Pull the balancer with tool. Do I need to use GM's J-41816 tool, or will one from a local place work? Even with the pin that should be in there, it should slide right out, correct? Depends on the pin type. Also, don't use the original crank bolt for this, use something that will fit inside the ID of the balancer so there is no load put on the threads. Too many guys have buggered the threads using the old bolt to push on with the puller.
5.) Transfer balancer weights and marks from old pulley to new one. Depending on the type of pinning used (unless you don't plan to re-pin) you may now need to send the balancer out for machining.
6.) Change crank seal (different discussion, but I should have that one).
7.) Align the new balancer to the crank with the marks on both.
8.) Insert old bolt and tighten down. NO!!! This is where guys get into trouble. Don't use the old bolt to install, you need to make an install tool or rent one. Here is mine. If you use the old bolt you will ruin the threads. The old bolt is use to ensure the balancer is bottomed after installation.
9.) Remove balancer bolt and insert crank pinning tool to drill crank and balancer. Drill crank and balancer and insert pin. As long as you have the end on pin setup as opposed to the ATI pin setup.
10.) Install the new crank bolt by either the 37 ft-lb plus 140 degrees or another similar method. I may just hit it with a good impact and try to get it over 240 ft-lbs. I have an IR Thunder Gun that can put out 625 ft-lbs. NO. The installation is not torque based, it is rotation based. Correct preload can only be obtained by rotation. Measuring torque is not the same thing as it is totally based off of thread friction. GM did this to ensure correct bolt stretch (preload) is achieved.
What does everyone think. I'm sorry if this is long, but at least all the comments will stay on the board for others to look at. Thanks.
Do you have the GM service manual, you are missing the measurement step as well.
#9
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Sep 2003
Location: Farmington CT
Posts: 6,125
Received 160 Likes
on
125 Posts
Cruise-In VII Veteran
read the GM manual for a detailed description, at a minimum leave the 10 bolts loose on the front cover until after the crank pulley is installed, then tq the 10 bolts to spec
#10
Melting Slicks
I've got the LS1HowTo Crank pulley install tool - I was going to create a seperate thread on what I'm about to say (in order that jgorss receives proper credit), but I'll make the offer here anyway:
When I was getting ready to do my crank pulley / heads / cam install, I noticed that Forum member jgorss had recently done a crank pulley install and that he had the above tool. I pm'd him to see if I could rent the tool or buy it from him, since he didn't sound like he would be using the tool again - Long story short, jgorss is ONE OF THE GOOD ONES!!! and sent me the crank pulley install tool AND two rods for holding the lifters up when you do a cam swap, all at NO CHARGE!! The deal we made was kind of a "Pay It Forward" deal ie: he passed the tools on to me to use, when I'm done w/ them I pass them onto someone else to use, when they are done w/ them they pass them onto someone else to use, etc, etc, etc - don't break the chain of passing the tools on when you are done
jgorss paid shipping to me, so I pay shipping to the next guy, and the guy who is shipping the tool ALWAYS pays the shipping to the next guy.
I finished w/ the crank pulley install tool last night so if you want it, let me know and I'll send it your way
If you need the rods for holding the lifters up, I'll send those to you also - if not, I'm done w/ the lifter holding rods, and if someone needs them, let me know and I'll forward them on.
I used the ARP crank pulley bolt last night w/ ARP assembly lube, and I was able to torque to 190 ft lbs w/ no problem using a Snap On 1/2" torque wrench. Whew!!
Also, Instead of putting ATV gasket material on the bottom of the timing cover, I put it on the top of the oil pan gasket where the bottom of the timing cover touches. WILL THIS WORK??????
I had a little trouble getting the timing cover oil seal OUT - use a BIG hammer and a punch or screwdriver, and eventually it came out - I put oil on the OUTSIDE of the new crank seal, and on the timing cover where the seal installs, and it LITERALLY pushed in w/ my fingers - few taps w/ a hammer and wood and it was a done deal
ALSO, I believe it is MUCH easier to take the steering sector out the DRIVERS side, rather than the passenger side due to the steering sector gearbox being on the driver's side - you will see what I mean - before disconnecting the steering rod BE SURE to tie the steering wheel into position (wheels pointed STRAIGHT AHEAD) so that you don't screw the steering position sensor up.
Follow the LS1HowTo Instructions - they are very good -
Finally, feel free to PM me if you have questions - I'm just finishing this, so it's fresh in my mind
When I was getting ready to do my crank pulley / heads / cam install, I noticed that Forum member jgorss had recently done a crank pulley install and that he had the above tool. I pm'd him to see if I could rent the tool or buy it from him, since he didn't sound like he would be using the tool again - Long story short, jgorss is ONE OF THE GOOD ONES!!! and sent me the crank pulley install tool AND two rods for holding the lifters up when you do a cam swap, all at NO CHARGE!! The deal we made was kind of a "Pay It Forward" deal ie: he passed the tools on to me to use, when I'm done w/ them I pass them onto someone else to use, when they are done w/ them they pass them onto someone else to use, etc, etc, etc - don't break the chain of passing the tools on when you are done
jgorss paid shipping to me, so I pay shipping to the next guy, and the guy who is shipping the tool ALWAYS pays the shipping to the next guy.
I finished w/ the crank pulley install tool last night so if you want it, let me know and I'll send it your way
If you need the rods for holding the lifters up, I'll send those to you also - if not, I'm done w/ the lifter holding rods, and if someone needs them, let me know and I'll forward them on.
I used the ARP crank pulley bolt last night w/ ARP assembly lube, and I was able to torque to 190 ft lbs w/ no problem using a Snap On 1/2" torque wrench. Whew!!
Also, Instead of putting ATV gasket material on the bottom of the timing cover, I put it on the top of the oil pan gasket where the bottom of the timing cover touches. WILL THIS WORK??????
I had a little trouble getting the timing cover oil seal OUT - use a BIG hammer and a punch or screwdriver, and eventually it came out - I put oil on the OUTSIDE of the new crank seal, and on the timing cover where the seal installs, and it LITERALLY pushed in w/ my fingers - few taps w/ a hammer and wood and it was a done deal
ALSO, I believe it is MUCH easier to take the steering sector out the DRIVERS side, rather than the passenger side due to the steering sector gearbox being on the driver's side - you will see what I mean - before disconnecting the steering rod BE SURE to tie the steering wheel into position (wheels pointed STRAIGHT AHEAD) so that you don't screw the steering position sensor up.
Follow the LS1HowTo Instructions - they are very good -
Finally, feel free to PM me if you have questions - I'm just finishing this, so it's fresh in my mind
#11
Burning Brakes
Regarding the balance weights in the damper - yes, the manual says they were used occasionally for the MN6 cars for that final fine balance, along with the flywheel weights.
When I had a big balance problem on my 2000, the factory rep checked my damper for weights, and found none. He explained that damper weighting was pretty rare, but was occasionally done. I would suggest you just look it over closely for any weights driven into the small holes before removing (or mark it just in case, then take it off and inspect for weights).
better safe than sorry I guess. You have the manual you said, so you know where to look for the little weights driven into the damper holes.
My flywheel did have weights, and that's what got us in trouble, when the dealer popped it off and threw it away without checking for weights - vibrated like crazy.
oh, you can heat the new damper to baout 200 in the oven, really helps it to slide right on.
DG
When I had a big balance problem on my 2000, the factory rep checked my damper for weights, and found none. He explained that damper weighting was pretty rare, but was occasionally done. I would suggest you just look it over closely for any weights driven into the small holes before removing (or mark it just in case, then take it off and inspect for weights).
better safe than sorry I guess. You have the manual you said, so you know where to look for the little weights driven into the damper holes.
My flywheel did have weights, and that's what got us in trouble, when the dealer popped it off and threw it away without checking for weights - vibrated like crazy.
oh, you can heat the new damper to baout 200 in the oven, really helps it to slide right on.
DG
#12
Racer
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the replies. I'll try to comment on a few. Here goes.
1.) I have the pinning kit from A&A. It requires a single pin. Will I need to send the balancer out to be machined first? I was just going to drill a new hole in both. Does that make sense?
2.) I also received with the A&A pinning kit, a long bolt for inserting with the new balancer. Is this used to put the balancer on?
3.) My impact gun can put out 625 ft-lbs. Do you think it may be an issue using this gun?
4.) Since the crank is "supposed" to already be pinned, is that going to present an issue getting the pulley off?
5.) If the crank happens to not be pinned, do I need to do some markings for position prior to loosening the bolt?
6.) Does anyone have a parts list of what to buy to make my own pulley tool?
Thanks. I'm sure I'll have more questions.
1.) I have the pinning kit from A&A. It requires a single pin. Will I need to send the balancer out to be machined first? I was just going to drill a new hole in both. Does that make sense?
2.) I also received with the A&A pinning kit, a long bolt for inserting with the new balancer. Is this used to put the balancer on?
3.) My impact gun can put out 625 ft-lbs. Do you think it may be an issue using this gun?
4.) Since the crank is "supposed" to already be pinned, is that going to present an issue getting the pulley off?
5.) If the crank happens to not be pinned, do I need to do some markings for position prior to loosening the bolt?
6.) Does anyone have a parts list of what to buy to make my own pulley tool?
Thanks. I'm sure I'll have more questions.
#13
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Aug 2000
Location: DFW tx
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The previous posts seem to have covered the major points. Definately do not use the old bolt to seat the pulley - either buy the GM tool, or make your own so you dont rely on the crank threads.
On my vette, 4th gear, wheel chucks, and ebrake were not enough to keep the car from lurching forward when attempting to torque the crank bolt. As you probably know, the ebrake is almost worthless when moving forward. I would recommend using caution, and having the front wheels on the ground to avoid the car falling off jack stands, or using a flywheel locking tool.
The stock crank is not pinned.
Also, after you seat the pulley, do a check to ensure it is fully seated. I thought I had mine seated, but it was off enough to cause belt alignment issues. Had to put some more torque on it to get it right.
On my vette, 4th gear, wheel chucks, and ebrake were not enough to keep the car from lurching forward when attempting to torque the crank bolt. As you probably know, the ebrake is almost worthless when moving forward. I would recommend using caution, and having the front wheels on the ground to avoid the car falling off jack stands, or using a flywheel locking tool.
The stock crank is not pinned.
Also, after you seat the pulley, do a check to ensure it is fully seated. I thought I had mine seated, but it was off enough to cause belt alignment issues. Had to put some more torque on it to get it right.
#14
Team Owner
Thanks for all the replies. I'll try to comment on a few. Here goes.
1.) I have the pinning kit from A&A. It requires a single pin. Will I need to send the balancer out to be machined first? I was just going to drill a new hole in both. Does that make sense?
I am not familiar with this kit, but assuming it is the same kit Magnacharger uses it drills into the end of the crank snout such that half the hole is in the crank and the other half in the damper. I would talk to Andy first, but your best bet is probably to drill a new hole in a different location. Not sure if you can line up the fixture to the old hole and not end up make the crank snout hole bigger and ending up with a loose pin. On the ATI kit, the hole is drilled through the side of the crank snout and then you need to mill a keyway in the pulley. I hope this makes sense as I don't want to confuse you.
2.) I also received with the A&A pinning kit, a long bolt for inserting with the new balancer. Is this used to put the balancer on?
Probably. I personally don't like this method as you don't have full thread engagement during installation.
3.) My impact gun can put out 625 ft-lbs. Do you think it may be an issue using this gun?
I personally wouldn't use it, you have no control over the bolt preload and the preload (bolt rotation) is critical.
4.) Since the crank is "supposed" to already be pinned, is that going to present an issue getting the pulley off?
No. With either pinning method it shouldn't interfere with removal.
5.) If the crank happens to not be pinned, do I need to do some markings for position prior to loosening the bolt?
No. Mark it after the bolt is out and before you remove the damper. When the bolt is out, it will expose the end of the crank snout and will be easy to mark.
6.) Does anyone have a parts list of what to buy to make my own pulley tool?
I used a 300mm length of M16X2 threaded rod and some nuts and washers. The critical features are the two bolts in the left of the above photo are jammed together so you can keep the threaded rod from turning and the nut to the left of the washers is used to press on the damper. The washer stack is enough to push on the damper hub keep the nut you are using to push them out where you can get at it. Hope this makes sense.
Thanks. I'm sure I'll have more questions.
1.) I have the pinning kit from A&A. It requires a single pin. Will I need to send the balancer out to be machined first? I was just going to drill a new hole in both. Does that make sense?
I am not familiar with this kit, but assuming it is the same kit Magnacharger uses it drills into the end of the crank snout such that half the hole is in the crank and the other half in the damper. I would talk to Andy first, but your best bet is probably to drill a new hole in a different location. Not sure if you can line up the fixture to the old hole and not end up make the crank snout hole bigger and ending up with a loose pin. On the ATI kit, the hole is drilled through the side of the crank snout and then you need to mill a keyway in the pulley. I hope this makes sense as I don't want to confuse you.
2.) I also received with the A&A pinning kit, a long bolt for inserting with the new balancer. Is this used to put the balancer on?
Probably. I personally don't like this method as you don't have full thread engagement during installation.
3.) My impact gun can put out 625 ft-lbs. Do you think it may be an issue using this gun?
I personally wouldn't use it, you have no control over the bolt preload and the preload (bolt rotation) is critical.
4.) Since the crank is "supposed" to already be pinned, is that going to present an issue getting the pulley off?
No. With either pinning method it shouldn't interfere with removal.
5.) If the crank happens to not be pinned, do I need to do some markings for position prior to loosening the bolt?
No. Mark it after the bolt is out and before you remove the damper. When the bolt is out, it will expose the end of the crank snout and will be easy to mark.
6.) Does anyone have a parts list of what to buy to make my own pulley tool?
I used a 300mm length of M16X2 threaded rod and some nuts and washers. The critical features are the two bolts in the left of the above photo are jammed together so you can keep the threaded rod from turning and the nut to the left of the washers is used to press on the damper. The washer stack is enough to push on the damper hub keep the nut you are using to push them out where you can get at it. Hope this makes sense.
Thanks. I'm sure I'll have more questions.
#15
Melting Slicks
#16
Racer
You can remove the rad fan(s) shroud for a little more working room to, it pops out from under pretty easy. I'd put new water pump housing gaskets on as well (assuming the pump comes off for T cover gasket replacement, Fel-Pro's LS1 front timing cover set includes the water pump housing gaskets, timing cover seal, and front crank seal (and oil pump O rings).
#17
Racer
Thread Starter
Does the water pump have to come off, too? I didn't realize that. I'm going mad chasing down everything I will need to do this. I just picked up more tools yesterday, and I'm about to pick up the timing cover gasket. I have the front seal already. So, here are my new questions for this morning:
1.) Do I need to take the water pump off to do this?
2.) On a different note, while I'm buying parts, do you change the rear seal when you change the clutch and flywheel assembly?
3.) Are there any more gaskets/seals anyone can think of that I will need to change the balancer of the front end?
Thanks.
1.) Do I need to take the water pump off to do this?
2.) On a different note, while I'm buying parts, do you change the rear seal when you change the clutch and flywheel assembly?
3.) Are there any more gaskets/seals anyone can think of that I will need to change the balancer of the front end?
Thanks.
#19
Racer
Thread Starter
Today was actually the first I heard of the water pump removal, as stated above. However, in the manual, it referenced putting the balancer on, and then tightening the timing cover...I guess to make sure you have proper clearance. I'm guessing that is not really done by most.
#20
Racer
Only mentioned pulling the water pump if you were planning on taking the timing cover off. Physically needed for removing the balancer? Nope. But depending on your car's age/miles, I'm always up for spending an extra 30 mins "while I'm in there" to replace potentially leaking seals, gaskets, etc. The t-cover gasket sits directly on the block, goes through a lot of heat cycles. Don't wanna be in there 10k from now doing it all again...