BLOWNBLUEZ06

Car won't start.
2002 C5.2-bar speed density. Fresh HKE iron 408, ID1000 injectors scaled back, picking up cam signal in the back. 2-bar tune Started up for 30 seconds and didn't stay running. Was rich. Lowered the VE globally and tried to restart and it wouldn't start. I started troubleshooting and found no cam hi/lo signal. I reversed the A&C pins and it is now incrementing 1-1, 2-2 and so on. They incremented equally all the way. The crank signal keeps putting up funny numbers. 65536 keeps recurring. Then something like 14329. I cranked the engine over with no plug wires and it sparked down to the valve covers. I smell fuel on start and the plugs seemed to be wet when I pulled them. I pulled the starter and exhaust and inspected the cam sensor harness and metered it back to the PCM pin for pin and all was good. I verified good voltage to all injectors and coil plugs. I metered the coil grounds to the chassis. I metered all 4 PCM grounds to the chassis. I verified no pins are expanded. I changed cam and crank sensors for good measure. I pulled codes. Nothing. Not even MAF fail codes P0102 and P0103 and I'm not sure if that's related. I've tuned many SD cars and never knew if it had to actually start before the MAF fails. VATS is turned off. The MAF 101, 2&3 are set to 0 "mil on first error". MAF table is Zero'd out. Dynamic High RPM disable set to 8k, MAF fail set at 0.
I have discussed this at length with a tuner that I think is on top of his game, Ed Hutchings (Edcmat-l1). I am taking my O-scope over there to analyze signals. I tapped the signal wire on the crank sensor and am getting a frequency. I'm assuming that a 24 tooth reluctor should pulse around 4800 pulses per minute with a starting RPM of 200, so that's what I'm expecting to see if it's right.
When scanning, I see No RPM signal. I see injector pulse width varying from 6ms to 11 or so.
Any suggestions while I'm in this car would be much appreciated. I'm at my wits end.
___

lucky131969

call me. PM Sent.

Bill Curlee

Were you able to do a successiful Crank Sensor relearn procedure?

BLOWNBLUEZ06

I wasn't because the car has to start and get up above 140 for it to be able to do a relearn. Not sure if the TechII works that way, but that's the way I understand my HPtuners works. I don't get a "ready" status to do it and won't until then.
I captured the crank signal on my O-scope yesterday and I am getting a 45hz signal, indicating roughly a 100RPM start rotation.
I metered that signal wire back to the PCM again and it's good with a resistance of .36 ohms. I did notice that when I was turning the motor over with no plugs in it that I wasn't getting a cam signal even though I had been all day. This is the first time that day that I didn't get a cam signal. Also the first time I turned the motor over without a fuel pump relay in place.
I verified 12v at each injector. The plugs seemed fuel soaked when I removed them. I verified 12v at both coil pack harness plugs. I the fuel pump comes on and I am monitoring pressure at 60psi. When scanning the vehicle with HPT, I get only a momentary flash of starting RPM. Otherwise it's 0.

blkvett01

Have you checked the low leve sensor wire going down by the starter. If the brown wire is going to ground, it will cause the crank sensor to do the reading that you have listed.
The car will start with out the cam sensor but not the crank. Make sure that you do not have the over heated wire problem with the insulation melted so the wire cross voltage, but look ok. Take the wire apart and check each one you will be suprise how the melt together.

john

Bill Curlee

John

Thats EXACTLY what I was thinking. RECHECK all the ground wires on G-105, G-106 and the one on the back of the drivers head, G-107.

Too many people dont connect the passenger side block Ground G-106 or connect it to the wrong place. Some have even put it on the starter solenoid.
There should be TWO wire on G-106 The main battery ground and a small black wire with a single gromet.

There should be two wires on G-105 A braded wire with a gromet end and a small black wire with agromet wire,

G-107 should have TWO black/white stripe wires in a single gromet in a single bolt on the back of the drivers head

The only two grounds that will prevent the car from starting are G106 and 107

That the first place to start.

BC

lucky131969

....and G105 good sir. Location G105 is the ground for SP122, which in turn, provides a ground for the fuel pump relay.

Bill Curlee

And you are correct once again and thanks for the back up!

lucky131969

BLOWNBLUEZ06

Do you guys know where these grounds end up other than the fuel pump relay? The fuel pump is running. It's a loud Aeromotive A1000 and I'm also monitoring pressure. I measured continuity on each of the 4 PCM grounds to the chassis and they're good.

BLOWNBLUEZ06

I too appreciate you guys help.

This is driving me nuts.
The car started on the original tune. I made a global VE adjustment and it never started again. I put it back to where it started and nothing. I changed the plugs in case they were wet fouled. Nothing. I forgot to ground the plug when I was testing it. I'm going back tomorrow to try some things and gathering a list of what to try.

Here's a pic of the signal off the crank sensor.

Bill Curlee

If you crank the car for several revolutions and stop in IGNITION ON, and IMMEDIATELY read the DTCs using the DIC without taking the key to OFF,,, what DTCs or meaasges do you see. Give that a try again. I have a theory I want to follow up.

Bill

Bill Curlee

Also,, Do your guages sweep normally and or do you see and abnormal IPC lights or guage indications?

lucky131969

Yep.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1573736689-post1.html

Lothar34

If you pull the plugs and the fuel pump relay and just turn the engine over with teh starter - do you see an RPM readout?

lucky131969

Ok, my O-scope skills are rusty, so bear with me. If I remember correctly, 50 m/s on the display , is the time per division, along the x-axis(horizontal). So it appears you are getting approximately 3 pulses per 50 m/s. Since there are 1000 m/s in 1 second, that means 20 of those 50 m/s divisions, would represent 1 second (I'm just guessing it takes one second for the crank to go 360 degrees). If that's the case, then 20 x 3 = 60 pulses per second (approximate). A 58x is 58 pulses per 360 degrees of crank revolution. Am I all wet here?

BLOWNBLUEZ06

When this trouble started initially, I was getting a P0335. I went through checking the wiring and changing the crank sensor with another used one that I had laying around and got a P0336 later on. It didn't pop up immediately, but after trying to start for a while. I haven't seen it since changing PCM's

BLOWNBLUEZ06

I haven't noticed anything abnormal.

BLOWNBLUEZ06

The automatic frequency measurement was close to what I calculated. 1 divided by (50ms / 2.5). That is a period of 20ms and inverted is 50hz.

Bill Curlee

Mike and talked and I would like you to try the following.

1. Use your HP Tuners on another known good running C5 and make sure that the OS and Update version flashed correctly in the HP Tuner system.

2. Remove the plugs. Remove the Crank Sensor. View the crank reluctor and clean off the tooth of ONE tooth and paint it white. Have some one slowly turn the crank while you COUNT the reluctor teeth to INSURE that you have the correct reluctor on the crank.

Let me know what you think or what you fine out.

Bill