bcmarly

Hi from a newbie. I have several questions for the group: I currently own a '02 BMW M3 and am seriously thinking about purchasing the C6. As a matter of fact I'm so serious that I placed a refundable deposit on one yesterday. I love the way the C6 looks (I've only seen pictures) and the specs are very impressive. I once owned a beautiful '66 coupe which was stolen and stripped for parts. I haven't owned one since then. Here are my concerns:
1. Has Chevy rid the corvette of its shakes and rattles? (using the C5 as a reference point)
C5 for more than 40,000 miles? Does it get the shakes at that point?
3. For those that have driven or owned an M3. Is the build quality now comparable to an M3?
4. Is the Z51 suspension a good compromise between comfort and superior road handling? This question is probably as much for Z06 owners as anybody else.
5. The C5 has been described by some as having a "big car feel." Yet the C5 is not a big car and certainly is light weight by comparison to the competition. Why is that? Is this a function of steering and road feel? Any ideas on the C6?
6. Some of you have referred to the transmission as having a "coffee can with marbles" attitude. What does that mean?
7. I'm not much of an open air person. Will the removable targa top create chassis flex and the shakes?
I hope I haven't asked too many questions. It's just that I like to make an informed decision. As you probably have guessed, I have no sense of humor for cars that shake and rattle. I drive my sports cars vey aggressively, but when the aggression stops I want to have a car I can live with day to day.
And now for some perspective - I love sports cars and have owned them my entire life. This is my 3rd M3. I have driven many of the Italian exotics, Porsches etc.. My biggest disappointment was driving an F 328. It was under powered, drove like a truck and rattled like a bag of bolts. My biggest high was being a passenger in a McLaren F1. I only wish I had brought an extra pair of underwear.
Thanks for your feedback - Bob

Scissors

My C5 has about 67,000 miles on it with the stiff Z51 suspension and crappy D.C. area roads, and the only time I have any rattles at all are when it's cold inside the vehicle, except for a sunvisor that I broke.


Nope. My C5 at 67,000 miles is the same as it was, from a shakes and rattles standpoint, as it was at 13,000 miles when I bought it.

The C5 interior is inferior to the M3's by far, as build quality and materials go. But the LS1 engine has a lot fewer problems. The C6 has supposedly addressed the interior issues.

Yes. The C5 structure is so stiff that it can have a firm suspension while still maintaining good ride quality. The C5 won't beat you up with the Z51 like the C4s would.

Seating position. That's it.

When the clutch is engaged and the transmission is in neutral, or when first starting out in the lower gears, there is an audible rattle. All vehicles using the Borg-Warner T56 have this sound, the only difference being how easily you can hear it due to sound deadening and other issues. The Firebird, Camaro, Viper, and some Aston Martins all have the same issue. There is no damage associated with the sound.

No. The C5 structure is very stiff and I detect no cowl shake with my top removed. I have never driven an open-air car as stiff and shake-free as the C5. I drive my C5 every day and it is extremely comfortable. I can fall asleep with ease when the wife drives on long trips.

bcmarly

Scissors, thanks for your thoughtful response. - Bob

TTRotary

First off, as with all cars, only you can decide. Test drive the Vettes as much as possible. Having said that...

I have a '03 330i Sport, the same chassis and interior as your M3 (except the Alcantera, which I love), and I have a '02 Z06. This is our second Vette and our second E46 3-er. We love both. I also have some seat time in a 6-spd E46 M3 thanks to a trade with my buddy.

The Bad (C5)
The seats are floppy and unsupportive for track work, albeit cushy on long rides. There is no excuse for these seats in a car of this price. If the XLR seats are an indication, the C6 seats will be excellent and rock-solid.

The cupholder is a joke. (again, well publicized efforts on C6 to improve this - XLR's is good)

Marbles-gearbox - definitely there, but who cares. Gear rattle is normal in any high-torque transmission and is partly caused by the synchros. Gears 1-2-3 have triple-cone synchros, which I will trade any day over crappy downshifting. This tranny is a race driver's dream.

Failing clutch slave unit (seems OK on '02 and up),
crappy gas gauge,

horrible memory feature that does what it wants.

Run-flat tires on the Coupe.

The lights - at least compared to the amazing BMW lamps. The C6 has Xenons, we'll see if they're up to BMW standards

The Good - a long list

Fabulous chassis and balance. These cars are naturals at the track and will totally destroy anything that does not have anther 50HP on them. I run in the Viper group at my track events and am always in the top 5 cars. The M3 is not even in the same league as the Z06 (although a closer match for the Coupe) - too much understeer, not enough power, and not enough grip IMO.

Bulletproof drivetrain - you can hammer all day in 100F temps and the car is unfazed. Brakes stop like the 4-wire time after time. You'll give out before the car does.

Comfort - compared to the Japanese sports cars I used to own, the Vettes drive like Cadillacs on the highway while delivering the performance goods when the chips are down. That is because they have an incredibly stiff chassis (stiffer than any other car I've driven) which allows the engineers to back off on suspension compliance.

The LS-1/LS-6 engine - this is reason enough to buy a corvette. This is an incredible motor: it weighs 350lb, packages into 2 cu ft, has GOBS of torque everywhere, and has the top end power of a multivalve engine. Makes you wonder why any one uses DOHC anymore. It is a monster engine and it is tough. I like the S50 and the M50 engines by BMW, but the LS engines are marvels and frankly - they just get the job done better. Oh, I almost forgot: highway mileage is 29-31MPG. Yes, that's right.

TC/AH - again, a home run. Not only is the system effective, but it is, again, racer friendly vis Competitive Driving mode, which switches off traction control, while keeping stability control and corner braking control active. This means you can steer with the throttle and power out of corners, but the car will save your bacon if you really get it crossed up.

HUD - again, a GREAT driver's tool.

The Surprising

Both E46's appear to be better assembled and use finer materials. Yes, the C5 interior looks less classy. Again, though, it gets the job done and everything is in the right place. And even though the E46's seem better built, they have been in the shop for recalls and electronic problems more than the Vettes. The climate control on the E46 is a POS.

My Coupe had no rattles at all after 28K hard miles that included some dirt roads in Utah. Our first E46 (a '99 325) developed a buzz/rattle in the dash that we couldn't figure out or fix.

Nonetheless, I love both E46 cars. Nobody does soports sedans like BMW. The 330 is a hoot and handles such as to inspire confidence. The Vette is much more of an animal due to the power, but it is an amazing vehicle at 9/10ths. When it comes to pure sports cars, I think you get more performance for your money with the Z06 than with the M3. Of course, both are screaming deals compared to the Porsches.

I'd give ya more but I've gotta go.

bcmarly

Marc,

Thanks for the detailed appraisal. It's hard to resist 400/400. As you can see, when I evaluate a sports car many components figure into the equation. Based on what I've read about the C6 and using the C5 as the baseline for comparing, it looks like the C6 has the potential to be every bit the match for the E46 in the quality department. I have had very few problems with my M3 and I have had excellent experience with my dealer when a problem does arise. They fix it! What a novel idea. The dealer with whom I've placed my deposit left me with a good impression. I'm # 1 on the list and I have a no risk back out clause in my agreement. - It looks as though GM has addressed all the short comings of the C5. If this ends up being a reality, this could be the beginning of a long relation with GM.

Thanks for your perspective and if you have any other thoughts please share them.

Bob

PS Your name is spelled the French way. Any connection?

need-for-speed

already answered but I'll add that there are very few compaints of rattles from C5 owners and the C6 frame is supposed to be even stiffer so it should be even better.

it is absolutely a good comprimise. It corners very well, very little body roll, and the ride is not at all harsh. We've made the 1700 mile round trip to the cruise in in Bowling Green twice and even my wife enjoyed the ride (other than the passenger seat doesn't lean back so she can sleep- but oh well, it's a 2 seater) . And by the way, the Z-51 package includes the FE3 suspension. Z06's have the FE4 which is even stiffer. I suspect the C6 Z-51 will have similar tuning.
I have read that the noise is due to the "straight cut" in the gears which is part of what allows a higher torque rating. I don't even notice the noise....to me it's not an issue.

I drive my C5 aggressively often and it never disappoints. I've driven it numerous times at the drag strip, on a track / road course and it is an awesome performer and rock solid. I am sure the C6 will do everything the C5 does and do it even better.




[Modified by need-for-speed, 11:20 PM 2/27/2004]

bcmarly

Thanks - I look forward to owning and driving the C6. So far I've heard nothing but praise. Since I won't get a chance to drive one before I own one, your feedback is important and appreciated.

Bob

miami34

Quote:
The C5 has been described by some as having a "big car feel." Yet the C5 is not a big car and certainly is light weight by comparison to the competition. Why is that? Is this a function of steering and road feel? Any ideas on the C6?
________________________________________ ________________________

Park the C5 corvette next to most midsize 5 mpassemger sedans and you will notice that physically the car is as big or bigger ( width & length ) than most. Weight wise, the vettes have been in the 3,400lb to 3,200 lb. range for thirty years or more. The C5 vette does have a " big car feel " when driving. It does not feel as nimble or quick to manuver as comparable Euros or Japanese cars. In skid pad & lap times it betters most, but the feel is not there. Not sure if it is steering box ratio, suspension etc.

What you will love about the car is the low end torque & power. You can accelerate wonderfully - even if your in the wrong gear.

I have no track experience, but in every day aggressive driving - it feels big.

CR555

Check out this video and you will ask no more questions :
http://hem.passagen.se/c5vsm3/ :flag

need-for-speed

can you say.....PUNKED !!

But then, I hope nobody was surprised by that. I know I wasn't.

Sportsdude

On a nice day, I drive with my top down and normally at a speed of 170+MPH with no problems. It's solid.

bcmarly

Enjoy it while you can. Based on the political climate over there, it won't be long before you will have posted speed limits. Take care -

groovyjay

The 05 M3 will have 400hp, it's lighter and propably out handles the C6. I would put my money on the Bimmer.

Bill4279

Question from a newbie

Is there even going to be a new M3? I know they're going to move to the 3 for the sedan/4 for the coupe thing, so will there be an M3 or only an M4?

Scissors

"The 05 M3 propably out handles the C6. I would put my money on the Bimmer."

need-for-speed

Have you ever heard of concepts such as "center of gravity" or "front to rear weight distribution" , or better yet, driven a Z51 equipped, MN6 C5 on a race course, at the same time that there are Beamers out there? Obviously not. Escpecially since we all know that C6 will even do it better than C5.

RGGregory

Don't think the laws of physics are on the Bimmer's side....nice job with your 79, by the way...cool

Scissors

Clearly, groovyjay has not.

VetteDrmr

I'll merely add to what has already been written:

I've got 114,xxx miles on my '00 hardtop, autocross several times a year, and I'm nowhere near the capabilities of the car, no rattles or squeaks (except from passengers when on the course) .

Each car will have strengths and weaknesses compared to each other. Since we haven't seen a C6 yet on the street, it's speculative, but I think you won't regret your purchase.

Now, dealer-wise, that's going to be up and down. There are dealers out there that support Corvettes superbly, and many others that don't have a clue. I imagine it's the same with BMWs as well, as relates to the M3s.

HTH, and have a good one,
Mike

AU N EGL

M3 ??? Now come on seriously folks. M3's are too heavy, under powered and as the bold portion above mentions. We eat M3's for lunch 2 and 3 at a time on the track. oh can we mention the historical cooling problem the M3's have?? radiator is too small and the conector for he hoses are cheap plastic so the crack during high temp use, like HPDE's .

Even the M5 is closer but not quite as quoted in bold above.

Maybe the better question to ask is why so many BMW engineers and test drivers at the SC plant keep a corvette in the garage at home? and that a corvette is the ONE CAR they dont want to see on their test track. ( opps that is not tobe public knowlage)

The only BMW I would own is a 7 serices, but they would have to toss in the extened warrenty. Now that is luxury.