[Z06] School me on octane boosters.....
05-23-2016, 08:56 AM
#82
Safety Car
Thread Starter
At the end of the day, I'll build the table to give the car what it wants, with the best product, then will most likely try meth injection.
I'm just experimenting with the different booster products right now.
I should have filtered out burst knock on the histogram I posted a pic of earlier, because that is what you see being logged as KR... I've been fighting with HPT version 3. Most of my configs, histo's, and maths are goofy, and I'm working through all that as I find them.
I'm just experimenting with the different booster products right now.
I should have filtered out burst knock on the histogram I posted a pic of earlier, because that is what you see being logged as KR... I've been fighting with HPT version 3. Most of my configs, histo's, and maths are goofy, and I'm working through all that as I find them.
05-23-2016, 11:11 AM
#83
if you had good affect with just Royal Purple mixed the way you did, then water meth is really going to surprised you. Just a word of caution--which you probably don't need, don't go over a 50/50 blend. The reason I say that is I think you have a curious mind ---like me, and you may want to play lol! Don't.
Mix the w/m yourself --much cheaper, you know what you have and buy a good kit. Don't buy a kit from a company that just puts stuff together and sells the package. Make sure the pump puts out enough pressure to get full atomization. Seriously.... read the site I threw up in an earlier post. There are a lot of differences in w/m systems being offered.
Also make sure you run the engine a little without the system on before you turn it off. I have seen a couple of guys running 100% methanol with a w/m injection system, at the strip. They Turned off the engine before the system turned off, then when they cranked it again it caught on invisible fire because the meth had pooled.
With a street system you will not have that problem, but just for awareness sake I mention it. Some others reading this thread may not be aware.
I have ran w/m on a n/a engine ( bmws with direct injection woes) and a supercharged rotary engine ( multiple nozzle placement). Road raced both.
It simply works and it is nice to come in from a session at Road Atlanta on a 100F day in July an have ice on my intake. People walked away shaking their heads lol.
Mix the w/m yourself --much cheaper, you know what you have and buy a good kit. Don't buy a kit from a company that just puts stuff together and sells the package. Make sure the pump puts out enough pressure to get full atomization. Seriously.... read the site I threw up in an earlier post. There are a lot of differences in w/m systems being offered.
Also make sure you run the engine a little without the system on before you turn it off. I have seen a couple of guys running 100% methanol with a w/m injection system, at the strip. They Turned off the engine before the system turned off, then when they cranked it again it caught on invisible fire because the meth had pooled.
With a street system you will not have that problem, but just for awareness sake I mention it. Some others reading this thread may not be aware.
I have ran w/m on a n/a engine ( bmws with direct injection woes) and a supercharged rotary engine ( multiple nozzle placement). Road raced both.
It simply works and it is nice to come in from a session at Road Atlanta on a 100F day in July an have ice on my intake. People walked away shaking their heads lol.
Last edited by olddragger; 05-23-2016 at 11:13 AM.
05-23-2016, 11:47 AM
#84
Safety Car
At the end of the day, I'll build the table to give the car what it wants, with the best product, then will most likely try meth injection.
I'm just experimenting with the different booster products right now.
I should have filtered out burst knock on the histogram I posted a pic of earlier, because that is what you see being logged as KR... I've been fighting with HPT version 3. Most of my configs, histo's, and maths are goofy, and I'm working through all that as I find them.
I'm just experimenting with the different booster products right now.
I should have filtered out burst knock on the histogram I posted a pic of earlier, because that is what you see being logged as KR... I've been fighting with HPT version 3. Most of my configs, histo's, and maths are goofy, and I'm working through all that as I find them.
05-23-2016, 01:07 PM
#85
Safety Car
Thread Starter
If I had one, I'd be using it. What I do have, is a mountain with a 4% grade on a 4 mile long stretch that I can put a fairly good load on the engine, and a nice 15 mile, mellow stretch of road just above sea level between my house and the mountain. ... Not as good as the use of a load cell dyno, but probably the best conditions one could get for street tuning.
There is nothing all that scientific about the testing I'm doing. I'm looking for large deviations, and doing whatever I can to make each "test" I do consistent with the others.
I'm not all that excited about using octane boosters on a regular basis. My hope is that the meth injection will yield comperable results.
There is nothing all that scientific about the testing I'm doing. I'm looking for large deviations, and doing whatever I can to make each "test" I do consistent with the others.
I'm not all that excited about using octane boosters on a regular basis. My hope is that the meth injection will yield comperable results.
05-23-2016, 07:08 PM
#86
Team Owner
05-24-2016, 10:53 PM
#87
I guess I was thinking you run as much timing as possible before it knocks. an added octane booster could mask low octane fuel such as Michael's situation. So you could push the timing past what you could normally run on available pump gas, but if you run without the additive it'll knock all over the place.
Not sure if my rambling makes sense?
Michael, what's you affinity towards not wanting to run E85? personal thing or are you just wanting to keep it simple?
Not sure if my rambling makes sense?
Michael, what's you affinity towards not wanting to run E85? personal thing or are you just wanting to keep it simple?
05-24-2016, 11:01 PM
#88
Team Owner
I guess I was thinking you run as much timing as possible before it knocks. an added octane booster could mask low octane fuel such as Michael's situation. So you could push the timing past what you could normally run on available pump gas, but if you run without the additive it'll knock all over the place.
Not sure if my rambling makes sense?
Michael, what's you affinity towards not wanting to run E85? personal thing or are you just wanting to keep it simple?
Not sure if my rambling makes sense?
Michael, what's you affinity towards not wanting to run E85? personal thing or are you just wanting to keep it simple?
05-24-2016, 11:08 PM
#89
Safety Car
Thread Starter
I guess I was thinking you run as much timing as possible before it knocks. an added octane booster could mask low octane fuel such as Michael's situation. So you could push the timing past what you could normally run on available pump gas, but if you run without the additive it'll knock all over the place.
Not sure if my rambling makes sense?
Michael, what's you affinity towards not wanting to run E85? personal thing or are you just wanting to keep it simple?
Not sure if my rambling makes sense?
Michael, what's you affinity towards not wanting to run E85? personal thing or are you just wanting to keep it simple?
When you have crap gas, you adjust your spark tables to stay away from detonation. There are a few tricks one can do with PE engagement, target AFR, and transient fueling, but after you've exhausted all the tricks in your bag, you have no other choice but to pull spark. You keep pulling it in the problem areas till you can no longer log knock retard. That's detonation, not pre-ignition. Pre-ignition is another problem.
So ya, the booster additives just slow down the burn a bit, so you can then add spark.
Most folks focus on WOT / Peak Torque / Peak HP spark, and that's all you ever hear guys talk about. Kinda like posting dyno sheets..... Yeah, look at me, my engine makes xxx HP! Blah, blah, blah......what makes a car fun to drive, is how it responds to that go peddle. If you have to retard spark all over the damn place, it makes the car feel sluggish and unresponsive. It only takes four/five degrees to make a big difference is throttle response.
I'm actually having a lot of fun driving the car right now....LOTS of fun. Unfortunately, I don't think running this type of additive is going to do me any favors in the long run, so I will more than likely give meth injection a whirl. I'm studying up on that option now.
05-25-2016, 08:42 AM
#91
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Yes, I did see that.... I did read the article you linked to, and it was pretty anticlimactic. All that talk about how great their stinking pump is, then to finish with "we don't do N/A". I'm not all that inclined to invent a system and come up with all kinds of switches and interfaces to make their pump work. So now I'm looking into the systems from Alky Control.
05-25-2016, 01:03 PM
#92
understand--I didn't buy from them either but they do have a good bit of good advice concerning w/m.
don't let boosted engines versus n/a engines get in the way. It is all the same. Nozzle placement may be different--no difference in systems. its either a map or a maf signaled system....end of story.
I have used alky control and snows. Customer service at alky control was better. For transitions etc on the street the AC is better imho. You can fine tune it more.
Snows is good also but I relied on it mostly for road course playing and never in closed loop. Although you can.
Quality again imho was better with AC's.
Now what do you think--single nozzle set up or 8?
Tuning will be fun
Not joking. I think you like doing the details in things , as everyone should, and tuning with a water meth system can be fairly simple to very very complex.
I had to play with a staged intake and staged injectors on a SC RX8 engine after I added the w/m. That was fun. I never relized I knew so many cuss words.
don't let boosted engines versus n/a engines get in the way. It is all the same. Nozzle placement may be different--no difference in systems. its either a map or a maf signaled system....end of story.
I have used alky control and snows. Customer service at alky control was better. For transitions etc on the street the AC is better imho. You can fine tune it more.
Snows is good also but I relied on it mostly for road course playing and never in closed loop. Although you can.
Quality again imho was better with AC's.
Now what do you think--single nozzle set up or 8?
Tuning will be fun
Not joking. I think you like doing the details in things , as everyone should, and tuning with a water meth system can be fairly simple to very very complex.I had to play with a staged intake and staged injectors on a SC RX8 engine after I added the w/m. That was fun. I never relized I knew so many cuss words.
Last edited by olddragger; 05-25-2016 at 01:08 PM.
05-26-2016, 06:31 PM
#93
Le Mans Master
understand--I didn't buy from them either but they do have a good bit of good advice concerning w/m.
don't let boosted engines versus n/a engines get in the way. It is all the same. Nozzle placement may be different--no difference in systems. its either a map or a maf signaled system....end of story.
I have used alky control and snows. Customer service at alky control was better. For transitions etc on the street the AC is better imho. You can fine tune it more.
Snows is good also but I relied on it mostly for road course playing and never in closed loop. Although you can.
Quality again imho was better with AC's.
Now what do you think--single nozzle set up or 8?
Tuning will be fun Not joking. I think you like doing the details in things , as everyone should, and tuning with a water meth system can be fairly simple to very very complex.
I had to play with a staged intake and staged injectors on a SC RX8 engine after I added the w/m. That was fun. I never relized I knew so many cuss words.
don't let boosted engines versus n/a engines get in the way. It is all the same. Nozzle placement may be different--no difference in systems. its either a map or a maf signaled system....end of story.
I have used alky control and snows. Customer service at alky control was better. For transitions etc on the street the AC is better imho. You can fine tune it more.
Snows is good also but I relied on it mostly for road course playing and never in closed loop. Although you can.
Quality again imho was better with AC's.
Now what do you think--single nozzle set up or 8?
Tuning will be fun
Not joking. I think you like doing the details in things , as everyone should, and tuning with a water meth system can be fairly simple to very very complex.I had to play with a staged intake and staged injectors on a SC RX8 engine after I added the w/m. That was fun. I never relized I knew so many cuss words.
Last edited by Dan_the_C5_Man; 05-26-2016 at 10:31 PM.
05-27-2016, 07:14 AM
#94
Oh I know! The Rx vision will happen. Whether 3 rotor or 2 rotor turbo ...doesn't matter.
They are wicked engines. My old one is still being raced.
If there is ever a car I would want over the z, it may be that one.
Sorry MD for hijacking.
They are wicked engines. My old one is still being raced.
If there is ever a car I would want over the z, it may be that one.
Sorry MD for hijacking.
06-01-2016, 01:31 PM
#96
Safety Car
Thread Starter
06-03-2016, 01:14 PM
#98
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Hey, this is 2016. We speak in acronyms and emoticons this day and age. Keep up. 
Meth Injection
Yes, I'll try Torco next. After that tank of fuel I'll try the Klotz.
Between the little aggravations that keep me from driving the car - Work, road construction, and rain..... I do not get much seat time.
Julio (Alky Control) suggests I use the MAF output for my application. Set a frequency to start the spray, and it will progressively increase as MAF Hz increases. I dunno..... I think throttle position would be a better way to control when it sprays.
Meth Injection
Yes, I'll try Torco next. After that tank of fuel I'll try the Klotz.
Between the little aggravations that keep me from driving the car - Work, road construction, and rain..... I do not get much seat time.
Julio (Alky Control) suggests I use the MAF output for my application. Set a frequency to start the spray, and it will progressively increase as MAF Hz increases. I dunno..... I think throttle position would be a better way to control when it sprays.
06-03-2016, 01:37 PM
#99
Burning Brakes
Hey, this is 2016. We speak in acronyms and emoticons this day and age. Keep up.
Meth Injection
Yes, I'll try Torco next. After that tank of fuel I'll try the Klotz.
Between the little aggravations that keep me from driving the car - Work, road construction, and rain..... I do not get much seat time.
Julio (Alky Control) suggests I use the MAF output for my application. Set a frequency to start the spray, and it will progressively increase as MAF Hz increases. I dunno..... I think throttle position would be a better way to control when it sprays.
Meth Injection
Yes, I'll try Torco next. After that tank of fuel I'll try the Klotz.
Between the little aggravations that keep me from driving the car - Work, road construction, and rain..... I do not get much seat time.
Julio (Alky Control) suggests I use the MAF output for my application. Set a frequency to start the spray, and it will progressively increase as MAF Hz increases. I dunno..... I think throttle position would be a better way to control when it sprays.
06-03-2016, 02:00 PM
#100
Safety Car
Thread Starter
I think throttle position would be better for transient periods. MAF better for WOT after the AFR set point for PE is met. PE enrichment always lags a bit, and that is when I see KR. For example, if I am putting along at 50 mph, and drop down to second gear and hammer the go peddle, I will almost always get KR, even with burst knock enabled.... Only way to get away from this is to drastically reduce spark in these areas of the spark table. If I could use the TPS output to trigger the spray, it would (I think) start the spray earlier. When I review my logs during these downshift / hammer throttle periods, MAF Hz increase is a bit lazy.
MAP might also be a better choice than MAF, because it is more predictive, but it would not be as good as MAF for a progressive change in spray time/amount. So maybe.... Use MAP to trigger the spray, and use MAF to modulate. Not sure if that's even possible though. Does that make any sense?
MAP might also be a better choice than MAF, because it is more predictive, but it would not be as good as MAF for a progressive change in spray time/amount. So maybe.... Use MAP to trigger the spray, and use MAF to modulate. Not sure if that's even possible though. Does that make any sense?