HPDEs Still Covered By Liberty Mutual
06-18-2007, 08:27 AM
#1
Burning Brakes
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Location: River Vale, NJ & Ft. Myers, FL
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St. Jude Donor '09-'10
HPDEs Still Covered By Liberty Mutual
Got my renewal for my Liberty Mutual policy. While many companies now exclude coverage if you're even parked at a race track, Liberty Mutual excludes ony "..loss to your auto inside a facility designed for racing for the purpose of a. competing in; or b. practicing or preparing for; any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest."
So as long as it's not a race or timed event, you're good. Unfortunately, I had to make a claim for an HPDE event last year. Liberty Mutual paid promptly with no questions.
I had looked into GEICO and Allstate this year to see if they were cheaper. Both policies specifically exclude HPDEs.
And in the height of irony, when I told Liberty Mutual I was looking at other companies, they reevaluated my application and cut my premium to less than what GEICO or Allstate would have charged.
So as long as it's not a race or timed event, you're good. Unfortunately, I had to make a claim for an HPDE event last year. Liberty Mutual paid promptly with no questions.
I had looked into GEICO and Allstate this year to see if they were cheaper. Both policies specifically exclude HPDEs.
And in the height of irony, when I told Liberty Mutual I was looking at other companies, they reevaluated my application and cut my premium to less than what GEICO or Allstate would have charged.
06-18-2007, 10:21 AM
#3
Drifting
It bears repeating that insurance is regulated by the states. A company that covers HPDE claims in one state may exclude them in another. My policy had very broad exclusions when I lived in OR but none in NC. Know what policy exclusions apply in your state.
06-18-2007, 01:36 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
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St. Jude Donor '09-'10
I had my town and state in my avatar. I removed it when making this post in case the wrong people read it. But I will reply to PMs as to what state I live in. However, I do believe that Liberty Mutual may be a company that doesn't vary much from state to state since two of my brothers live in different states than me yet have basically the same language.
06-18-2007, 05:35 PM
#6
Race Director
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W. Detroit Events Coordinator
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I'll have to look at mine, I've had Liberty Mutual for quite a while.
06-18-2007, 06:08 PM
#7
Drifting
Confirming that State Farm in Texas will cover HPDEs. Two things:
1) I talked with my agent, and he said they were not changing policy for the small number of HPDE accidents. He said in general HPDE folks were safer drivers than not.
2) At the track a few weeks ago, there was a car with a State Farm logo on it (corvette). I asked. He WAS an insurance agent! Said State Farm would cover HPDEs for the forseeable future.
I'm glad I'm with SF now.
1) I talked with my agent, and he said they were not changing policy for the small number of HPDE accidents. He said in general HPDE folks were safer drivers than not.
2) At the track a few weeks ago, there was a car with a State Farm logo on it (corvette). I asked. He WAS an insurance agent! Said State Farm would cover HPDEs for the forseeable future.
I'm glad I'm with SF now.
06-18-2007, 10:51 PM
#8
Team Owner
Here we go again.. another thread to say "heeeyyyyyy, insurance companies... look, we're having high risk fun on a racetrack disguised as a "school". Raise our rates!"
You're mistaken about your policy. It EXCLUDES HPDE events. Though it is not specific, "practicing or preparing for" can be construed as a driver education event. The position is and has been taken in the past that if you're on a racetrack-- what else are you doing other than "practicing" ? You are also "preparing". Correct?
Again, it's not inclusive or exclusive of specific terms. It is a "gray" area and one that can become "un-gray" (see below) If you're at your first event, your car may be covered. If you've been to 5 tracks, you'll have a lot of explaining to do if you attempt to put a claim on your standard insurance policy.
However, consider the below points that your insurance company's legal rep will start asking if you put through a claim "at the track":
What tires were you using? How many sets have you burned off at tracks?
How many different DE's have you participated in?
Are there any performance modifications to the car?
--
To me, if any of the above answers goes over "2", then do us all a favor, stop using your personal insurance as a safety net on the track.
Do you see that if you answer positively to the questions above that a point can be made that you're not out to be a better driver but just out to blaze the tracks? Claim denied!
If you can't afford to wad it up, don't take it to the track.
Claims from race track collisions need not effect everyone else's personal daily driver automobile policies.
You're mistaken about your policy. It EXCLUDES HPDE events. Though it is not specific, "practicing or preparing for" can be construed as a driver education event. The position is and has been taken in the past that if you're on a racetrack-- what else are you doing other than "practicing" ? You are also "preparing". Correct?
Again, it's not inclusive or exclusive of specific terms. It is a "gray" area and one that can become "un-gray" (see below) If you're at your first event, your car may be covered. If you've been to 5 tracks, you'll have a lot of explaining to do if you attempt to put a claim on your standard insurance policy.
However, consider the below points that your insurance company's legal rep will start asking if you put through a claim "at the track":
What tires were you using? How many sets have you burned off at tracks?
How many different DE's have you participated in?
Are there any performance modifications to the car?
--
To me, if any of the above answers goes over "2", then do us all a favor, stop using your personal insurance as a safety net on the track.
Do you see that if you answer positively to the questions above that a point can be made that you're not out to be a better driver but just out to blaze the tracks? Claim denied!
If you can't afford to wad it up, don't take it to the track.
Claims from race track collisions need not effect everyone else's personal daily driver automobile policies.
06-19-2007, 12:35 AM
#10
Burning Brakes
While I agree that you pay to play, it's a rather elitist approach.
How about one of the ferrari approaches: only track it if you got another ferrari
It starts to exclude many driving enthusiasts if you play those rules.
That said, in the last 4 years, I've only seen one accident at a HPDE, and both were a total loss, and it was a fluke deal (pretty much mid-air t-bone if memory serves me, both were covered by insurance).
I've seen more accidents in organized races than what you can catch on court tv or spike.
So in summary: it's a gamble either way you look at it. Call your agent directly and get the skivvy, or if it's a dedicated track car, get one of those racing insurance deals from a specialty insurer.
As for don't claim it so you don't hurt joe q. public's policy, if joe q. public doesn't even care about his car or how they drive, let alone show consideration to others, screw 'em.
How about one of the ferrari approaches: only track it if you got another ferrari
It starts to exclude many driving enthusiasts if you play those rules.
That said, in the last 4 years, I've only seen one accident at a HPDE, and both were a total loss, and it was a fluke deal (pretty much mid-air t-bone if memory serves me, both were covered by insurance).
I've seen more accidents in organized races than what you can catch on court tv or spike.
So in summary: it's a gamble either way you look at it. Call your agent directly and get the skivvy, or if it's a dedicated track car, get one of those racing insurance deals from a specialty insurer.
As for don't claim it so you don't hurt joe q. public's policy, if joe q. public doesn't even care about his car or how they drive, let alone show consideration to others, screw 'em.
06-19-2007, 12:45 AM
#11
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While I agree that you pay to play, it's a rather elitist approach.
That said, in the last 4 years, I've only seen one accident at a HPDE, and both were a total loss, and it was a fluke deal (pretty much mid-air t-bone if memory serves me, both were covered by insurance).
I've seen more accidents in organized races than what you can catch on court tv or spike.
.
That said, in the last 4 years, I've only seen one accident at a HPDE, and both were a total loss, and it was a fluke deal (pretty much mid-air t-bone if memory serves me, both were covered by insurance).
I've seen more accidents in organized races than what you can catch on court tv or spike.
.
I've said it before - I can't believe anyone would care about a car they take to the track at all. I am shocked even...
I have seen literally hundreds of cars damaged and destroyed at open tracks, mostly at NASA events in California where at least 3 idiots a weekend would completely wipe out a really expensive car to the amusement and entertainment of all. Like how about Firehawk Pontiacs, M3's and Cobra Mustangs to name but a few cherished memories.
This is really easy - if you can't afford to total the car get something cheaper to use like a used M3 or a C5... You don't have to have the latest model to have cheap and therfor care free fun...
I am with SCCA CW here. If you are a man , you admit your errors and take your lump$.... Insurance is for wimps....
Last edited by Tintin; 06-19-2007 at 12:59 AM.
06-19-2007, 12:46 AM
#12
Drifting
Here we go again.. another thread to say "heeeyyyyyy, insurance companies... look, we're having high risk fun on a racetrack disguised as a "school". Raise our rates!"
You're mistaken about your policy. It EXCLUDES HPDE events. Though it is not specific, "practicing or preparing for" can be construed as a driver education event. The position is and has been taken in the past that if you're on a racetrack-- what else are you doing other than "practicing" ? You are also "preparing". Correct?
Again, it's not inclusive or exclusive of specific terms. It is a "gray" area and one that can become "un-gray" (see below) If you're at your first event, your car may be covered. If you've been to 5 tracks, you'll have a lot of explaining to do if you attempt to put a claim on your standard insurance policy.
However, consider the below points that your insurance company's legal rep will start asking if you put through a claim "at the track":
What tires were you using? How many sets have you burned off at tracks?
How many different DE's have you participated in?
Are there any performance modifications to the car?
--
To me, if any of the above answers goes over "2", then do us all a favor, stop using your personal insurance as a safety net on the track.
Do you see that if you answer positively to the questions above that a point can be made that you're not out to be a better driver but just out to blaze the tracks? Claim denied!
If you can't afford to wad it up, don't take it to the track.
Claims from race track collisions need not effect everyone else's personal daily driver automobile policies.
You're mistaken about your policy. It EXCLUDES HPDE events. Though it is not specific, "practicing or preparing for" can be construed as a driver education event. The position is and has been taken in the past that if you're on a racetrack-- what else are you doing other than "practicing" ? You are also "preparing". Correct?
Again, it's not inclusive or exclusive of specific terms. It is a "gray" area and one that can become "un-gray" (see below) If you're at your first event, your car may be covered. If you've been to 5 tracks, you'll have a lot of explaining to do if you attempt to put a claim on your standard insurance policy.
However, consider the below points that your insurance company's legal rep will start asking if you put through a claim "at the track":
What tires were you using? How many sets have you burned off at tracks?
How many different DE's have you participated in?
Are there any performance modifications to the car?
--
To me, if any of the above answers goes over "2", then do us all a favor, stop using your personal insurance as a safety net on the track.
Do you see that if you answer positively to the questions above that a point can be made that you're not out to be a better driver but just out to blaze the tracks? Claim denied!
If you can't afford to wad it up, don't take it to the track.
Claims from race track collisions need not effect everyone else's personal daily driver automobile policies.
I disagree. With regard to HPDE's, if an insurance company decides such coverage exposes the company to excessive risk they will simply change the policy to exclude the coverage, as many have already done. General rate increases occur when the company has to maintain profitability in the face of risks and rising claims costs it has no choice but to insure, ie. day-to-day driving.
Given the increasing popularity and participation in HPDE events, it seems likely to me that it won't be long before every insurance company excludes them from coverage. But until then, anyone who has a covered event should submit a claim if it's in their best interest to do so. That's what insurance is for.
06-19-2007, 07:31 AM
#13
Team Owner
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A few years ago I was driving in I 540 on the north side or Raleigh over to Durham to meet 94ZR1#444 to head down to Road Atlanta. It was a Friday morning and I saw more accidents, 15-20 accidents, on that 25 mile stretch of interstate then I saw on 3 years of DEs.
Plus many insruance companies charge more for auto insuracne if you DONT commute and work out of your home vs driving in rush hour traffic.
Plus many insruance companies charge more for auto insuracne if you DONT commute and work out of your home vs driving in rush hour traffic.
Last edited by AU N EGL; 06-19-2007 at 07:33 AM.
06-19-2007, 08:49 AM
#14
Burning Brakes
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St. Jude Donor '09-'10
Here we go again.. another thread to say "heeeyyyyyy, insurance companies... look, we're having high risk fun on a racetrack disguised as a "school". Raise our rates!"
You're mistaken about your policy. It EXCLUDES HPDE events. Though it is not specific, "practicing or preparing for" can be construed as a driver education event. The position is and has been taken in the past that if you're on a racetrack-- what else are you doing other than "practicing" ? You are also "preparing". Correct?
Again, it's not inclusive or exclusive of specific terms. It is a "gray" area and one that can become "un-gray" (see below) If you're at your first event, your car may be covered. If you've been to 5 tracks, you'll have a lot of explaining to do if you attempt to put a claim on your standard insurance policy.
However, consider the below points that your insurance company's legal rep will start asking if you put through a claim "at the track":
What tires were you using? How many sets have you burned off at tracks?
How many different DE's have you participated in?
Are there any performance modifications to the car?
--
To me, if any of the above answers goes over "2", then do us all a favor, stop using your personal insurance as a safety net on the track.
Do you see that if you answer positively to the questions above that a point can be made that you're not out to be a better driver but just out to blaze the tracks? Claim denied!
If you can't afford to wad it up, don't take it to the track.
Claims from race track collisions need not effect everyone else's personal daily driver automobile policies.
You're mistaken about your policy. It EXCLUDES HPDE events. Though it is not specific, "practicing or preparing for" can be construed as a driver education event. The position is and has been taken in the past that if you're on a racetrack-- what else are you doing other than "practicing" ? You are also "preparing". Correct?
Again, it's not inclusive or exclusive of specific terms. It is a "gray" area and one that can become "un-gray" (see below) If you're at your first event, your car may be covered. If you've been to 5 tracks, you'll have a lot of explaining to do if you attempt to put a claim on your standard insurance policy.
However, consider the below points that your insurance company's legal rep will start asking if you put through a claim "at the track":
What tires were you using? How many sets have you burned off at tracks?
How many different DE's have you participated in?
Are there any performance modifications to the car?
--
To me, if any of the above answers goes over "2", then do us all a favor, stop using your personal insurance as a safety net on the track.
Do you see that if you answer positively to the questions above that a point can be made that you're not out to be a better driver but just out to blaze the tracks? Claim denied!
If you can't afford to wad it up, don't take it to the track.
Claims from race track collisions need not effect everyone else's personal daily driver automobile policies.
While I can afford to replace my $75,000 car, why shouldn't I submit a claim if my policy explicitly allows me to do so? With your perverted logic, perhaps we should all drop our collision coverage so that rates don't go up.
If my claim last year raised your rates, i apoligize. Personally, my rate dropped by more than 50%. Right now, it is a buyer's market with auto insurance companies for anyone willing to do a little homework. And I guarantee that while rates may be dropping, insurance companies are still making money.
06-19-2007, 12:06 PM
#15
Safety Car
Here we go again.. another thread to say "heeeyyyyyy, insurance companies... look, we're having high risk fun on a racetrack disguised as a "school". Raise our rates!"
You're mistaken about your policy. It EXCLUDES HPDE events. Though it is not specific, "practicing or preparing for" can be construed as a driver education event. The position is and has been taken in the past that if you're on a racetrack-- what else are you doing other than "practicing" ? You are also "preparing". Correct?
Again, it's not inclusive or exclusive of specific terms. It is a "gray" area and one that can become "un-gray" (see below) If you're at your first event, your car may be covered. If you've been to 5 tracks, you'll have a lot of explaining to do if you attempt to put a claim on your standard insurance policy.
However, consider the below points that your insurance company's legal rep will start asking if you put through a claim "at the track":
What tires were you using? How many sets have you burned off at tracks?
How many different DE's have you participated in?
Are there any performance modifications to the car?
--
To me, if any of the above answers goes over "2", then do us all a favor, stop using your personal insurance as a safety net on the track.
Do you see that if you answer positively to the questions above that a point can be made that you're not out to be a better driver but just out to blaze the tracks? Claim denied!
If you can't afford to wad it up, don't take it to the track.
Claims from race track collisions need not effect everyone else's personal daily driver automobile policies.
You're mistaken about your policy. It EXCLUDES HPDE events. Though it is not specific, "practicing or preparing for" can be construed as a driver education event. The position is and has been taken in the past that if you're on a racetrack-- what else are you doing other than "practicing" ? You are also "preparing". Correct?
Again, it's not inclusive or exclusive of specific terms. It is a "gray" area and one that can become "un-gray" (see below) If you're at your first event, your car may be covered. If you've been to 5 tracks, you'll have a lot of explaining to do if you attempt to put a claim on your standard insurance policy.
However, consider the below points that your insurance company's legal rep will start asking if you put through a claim "at the track":
What tires were you using? How many sets have you burned off at tracks?
How many different DE's have you participated in?
Are there any performance modifications to the car?
--
To me, if any of the above answers goes over "2", then do us all a favor, stop using your personal insurance as a safety net on the track.
Do you see that if you answer positively to the questions above that a point can be made that you're not out to be a better driver but just out to blaze the tracks? Claim denied!
If you can't afford to wad it up, don't take it to the track.
Claims from race track collisions need not effect everyone else's personal daily driver automobile policies.
Well if in fact his policy does exclude HPDE's the rest of your post is pointless becasue he will be denied, correct??? So therefore if he decides to make an attempt then that's his decision to make, not yours, contrary to popular beleif, the only person you control on the internet is yourself. I would think anyone here would try and get their insurance to cover a track incident if they could, insurance companies are some of the biggest scammers of all time so maybe they get some of their own medicine every now and then.
Besides I see several people who drive HPDE for no reason other than to learn how to handle all the horsepower that's so readily available on showrooms now and would rather take the car to a track that risk endangering lives on the highway, they should be penalized for that right???? They are already getting raped for the car they bought so they should also be denied for wanting to learn to drive the car better as well I guess.
06-19-2007, 12:34 PM
#16
Team Owner
Well if in fact his policy does exclude HPDE's the rest of your post is pointless becasue he will be denied, correct??? So therefore if he decides to make an attempt then that's his decision to make, not yours, contrary to popular beleif, the only person you control on the internet is yourself. I would think anyone here would try and get their insurance to cover a track incident if they could, insurance companies are some of the biggest scammers of all time so maybe they get some of their own medicine every now and then.
Besides I see several people who drive HPDE for no reason other than to learn how to handle all the horsepower that's so readily available on showrooms now and would rather take the car to a track that risk endangering lives on the highway, they should be penalized for that right???? They are already getting raped for the car they bought so they should also be denied for wanting to learn to drive the car better as well I guess.
Besides I see several people who drive HPDE for no reason other than to learn how to handle all the horsepower that's so readily available on showrooms now and would rather take the car to a track that risk endangering lives on the highway, they should be penalized for that right???? They are already getting raped for the car they bought so they should also be denied for wanting to learn to drive the car better as well I guess.
You missed *several of the points of my post and are alluding to conclusions that don't make sense. Follow me here:
1. The more people that put claims on their insurance from wrecks at HPDE days will cause the masses to suffer. The insurance companies WILL offer tighter exclusionary language and WILL deny your claim.
2. The current language of the 1st posted policy is vague. It is common in insurance policies. The circumstances surrounding the claim either allow you to take a large(r) payout or be totally screwed. Hence the term, "if you can't afford to wad it up don't take it to the track"
3. There are people out there who are continually attending high performance (open track) days and are subjected to a much higher risk than the rest of the "Joe Public" drivers. You know who you are... if you think that your standard insurance policy should cover above and beyond the "standard" risk-- you are mistaken. This is akin to living in a flood zone and not opting for flood insurance. There is also a direct parallel to living near hurricane territory but yet not buying the coverage.
Anyone can make any choice they want, and I wish that the majority of drivers would attend a driving class at a track. We see horrible driving etiquette every day and day in and day out.
If an incident occurs on a true "learning" DE day, then so be it. The person was doing the right thing by attempting to better their skills. Should they be covered? Maybe.. the above policy may or may not cover the loss...
On the other hand, if the person is taking a fire breathing Vette to various tracks to go fast as a hobby... then, you'd better be looking for separate coverages.
Any other interpretations needed?
Last edited by Axelrod; 06-19-2007 at 12:40 PM.
06-19-2007, 12:38 PM
#17
Team Owner
Well if in fact his policy does exclude HPDE's the rest of your post is pointless becasue he will be denied, correct??? So therefore if he decides to make an attempt then that's his decision to make, not yours, contrary to popular beleif, the only person you control on the internet is yourself. I would think anyone here would try and get their insurance to cover a track incident if they could, insurance companies are some of the biggest scammers of all time so maybe they get some of their own medicine every now and then.
Besides I see several people who drive HPDE for no reason other than to learn how to handle all the horsepower that's so readily available on showrooms now and would rather take the car to a track that risk endangering lives on the highway, they should be penalized for that right???? They are already getting raped for the car they bought so they should also be denied for wanting to learn to drive the car better as well I guess.
Besides I see several people who drive HPDE for no reason other than to learn how to handle all the horsepower that's so readily available on showrooms now and would rather take the car to a track that risk endangering lives on the highway, they should be penalized for that right???? They are already getting raped for the car they bought so they should also be denied for wanting to learn to drive the car better as well I guess.
The issue is that the driver's of HPDE days account for a very very very small percentage of drivers. There is risk there, and the insurance companies are beginning to gather statistics about these on-track incidents and are clamping down. Why? Because it's an above average risk! Imagine that!
So, if it's an above average risk (taking your car to multiple D.E. days and flying around with your buddies) then why should everyone pay for your fun? Get a separate policy to cover your risk is my point.
Read my post above this one for clarity on the driver who really is seeking to improve their driving skills. Yes, they should be able to do so.
06-19-2007, 12:41 PM
#18
Team Owner
I disagree. With regard to HPDE's, if an insurance company decides such coverage exposes the company to excessive risk they will simply change the policy to exclude the coverage, as many have already done. General rate increases occur when the company has to maintain profitability in the face of risks and rising claims costs it has no choice but to insure, ie. day-to-day driving.
Given the increasing popularity and participation in HPDE events, it seems likely to me that it won't be long before every insurance company excludes them from coverage. But until then, anyone who has a covered event should submit a claim if it's in their best interest to do so. That's what insurance is for.
Given the increasing popularity and participation in HPDE events, it seems likely to me that it won't be long before every insurance company excludes them from coverage. But until then, anyone who has a covered event should submit a claim if it's in their best interest to do so. That's what insurance is for.
06-19-2007, 01:59 PM
#19
Safety Car
You missed *several of the points of my post and are alluding to conclusions that don't make sense. Follow me here:
1. The more people that put claims on their insurance from wrecks at HPDE days will cause the masses to suffer. The insurance companies WILL offer tighter exclusionary language and WILL deny your claim.
2. The current language of the 1st posted policy is vague. It is common in insurance policies. The circumstances surrounding the claim either allow you to take a large(r) payout or be totally screwed. Hence the term, "if you can't afford to wad it up don't take it to the track"
3. There are people out there who are continually attending high performance (open track) days and are subjected to a much higher risk than the rest of the "Joe Public" drivers. You know who you are... if you think that your standard insurance policy should cover above and beyond the "standard" risk-- you are mistaken. This is akin to living in a flood zone and not opting for flood insurance. There is also a direct parallel to living near hurricane territory but yet not buying the coverage.
Anyone can make any choice they want, and I wish that the majority of drivers would attend a driving class at a track. We see horrible driving etiquette every day and day in and day out.
If an incident occurs on a true "learning" DE day, then so be it. The person was doing the right thing by attempting to better their skills. Should they be covered? Maybe.. the above policy may or may not cover the loss...
On the other hand, if the person is taking a fire breathing Vette to various tracks to go fast as a hobby... then, you'd better be looking for separate coverages.
Any other interpretations needed?
1. The more people that put claims on their insurance from wrecks at HPDE days will cause the masses to suffer. The insurance companies WILL offer tighter exclusionary language and WILL deny your claim.
2. The current language of the 1st posted policy is vague. It is common in insurance policies. The circumstances surrounding the claim either allow you to take a large(r) payout or be totally screwed. Hence the term, "if you can't afford to wad it up don't take it to the track"
3. There are people out there who are continually attending high performance (open track) days and are subjected to a much higher risk than the rest of the "Joe Public" drivers. You know who you are... if you think that your standard insurance policy should cover above and beyond the "standard" risk-- you are mistaken. This is akin to living in a flood zone and not opting for flood insurance. There is also a direct parallel to living near hurricane territory but yet not buying the coverage.
Anyone can make any choice they want, and I wish that the majority of drivers would attend a driving class at a track. We see horrible driving etiquette every day and day in and day out.
If an incident occurs on a true "learning" DE day, then so be it. The person was doing the right thing by attempting to better their skills. Should they be covered? Maybe.. the above policy may or may not cover the loss...
On the other hand, if the person is taking a fire breathing Vette to various tracks to go fast as a hobby... then, you'd better be looking for separate coverages.
Any other interpretations needed?
06-20-2007, 12:51 AM
#20
Pro
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He is not mistaken. He filed a claim for HPDE and they paid. Any discussion or interpretation of his policy is moot. He was covered, they paid for damage, therefor they include HPDE events.
