bselltiz

Hi all, I have found the forum to be a great resource with the majority of the members being top notch guys so I am reaching out for some advice. I am not new to the road course (long time on bikes) but somewhat new to cars on the track. I just got my hands on a 2008 C6 with some bolt on mods but nothing serious. Love the car and can’t wait to get it to NJMP, Limerock or Watkin’s Glen. Going to be trailering it there, I plan on doing 5 to 10 track days this year. That being said I need help on getting set up, please post anything you think will help, it will be much appreciated.

Rims:
I want to get a second set of rims for strictly track use and I want to buy a set of used rims to save money. I would also prefer them in black but beggars can’t be choosers. So my question is would there be any disadvantage of buying a set of stock C6 rims for track use? I also need to consider brake clearance if I goto a Z06 Caliper, right now I have gumby’s for my street setup and I have read they will work with ผ” spacers.

Tires:
I think want to run slicks at the track but don’t know what size would be best. I am assuming Hoosier R6’s are the way to go and I know my rim choice will come into play here. I’m not even sure what I want to ask here…hey I didn’t say I was smart

Brakes:
It is a Z51 optioned car. I did some hard braking recently and wasn’t excited with its stopping ability.
Whatever I do I will be flushing the system and putting racing fluid in as well as adding stainless lines.
I will be pushing it on the track, not saying I am fast, just that I will be pushing it.
I also can’t break the bank here, maybe around a 1k to 1500 budget?
These are my options as I see it:
Upgrade to a racing pad all around
Upgrade to used Z06 calipers and rotors and new racing pads
Upgrade to an aftermarket system (doubt I can afford this for this year)
What do you think?

Jacking the car up:
Thinking of getting the tire rack model below – anyone own it?
http://www.tirerack.com/accessories/...&AID=10398365&
Might also get their jack stands, probably a good idea.
Also do I need pucks to do it right?

Pre track prep:
Should I change my fluids before or after the event? Which fluids do I change?
What else do you do to your car before you go to each event?

Damn this is a long post – I am sorry. Thanks for reading and thanks for any advice
Brian

Corvee

First of all, welcome to the A/RR section. Not trying to be a butt - most of these questions are already answered elsewhere including the "stickies" section at the intro to this section. There is a wealth of information there not covered in this post. Take time and read through it. A "search" narrowed to specific sections will yield plenty of results.

With that out of the way- I would resist temptation to make any modifications to the car particulary the engine, until you can identify where the car is limited. What are the "bolt-ons mods"? Some are not appropriate for track use.

To prep the car change the brake fluid to DOT 4 and install a good set of track pads (non-ceramic) - Hawk HP plus is a good one to start with. You do not want an aggressive pad (i.e. "race" pad) they will unsettle the car. Unless fresh, I would change the rest of the fluids and replace with stock or equivalent - engine oil, trans, diff, clutch. You will have to replace more frequently than street use, but not after every event.

Most use OEM manufactured rims (non-chrome). They are lighter than most aftermarket and cheaper. I would not run spacers. If you do, replace your studs, otherwise they may brake under load (as on the track)!

With the exception of brake cooling ducts, I would not upgrade the brake calipers until necessary and then consider an aftermarket unless you get a smoking deal on a Z06 set-up. The OEM brakes are adequate unless you are consistently "cooking" the brakes and it is not driver error. Change the pads/fluids and then see where you are.

I would not consider running slicks until I built deep seat time and I doubt 5 to 10 track days a year are adequate. Most instructors will tell you to stay on street tires. They are more "forgiving" and responsive (audible) and you will learn more by not relying on the slicks to plant the car. I run NT05's and keep up (and pass) guys running Hoosier R6's.

As far as a jack, this is an alternative: http://www.tractorsupply.com/vehicle...e-jack-1160772. Yes you need pucks, there are multiple sources through vendors here.

bselltiz

Hey man,
Thanks for the reply.
You are correct, a lot of this has been covered elsewhere and I have spent considerable time reading and trying to learn, so much so that I had to stop and just ask some questions.
Thanks for the feedback on the fluids and very much so on the rims. I am surprised to learn that OEM rims are typically lighter, I am glad to hear that. As far as spacers this was only to accommodate the Z06 Calipers if I got them.
I am still unsure about the slicks, probably due to my experience on motorcycles. On bikes you can never have too much grip, whereas in the car I can see your point. Last year I spent a day on the track with a car running Hoosiers and found them to be great. I was still able to feel the car move around a bit and did not find them unpredictable, or should I say too gripy until it was too late. Just seems a shame to spend so much on track tires and just not get the best.
Again, thanks for the feedback!

68sixspeed

one more adder, you are thinking right, just balance your brake pad selection to the tire. For street tires I like the HP+, if you go to the slicks then up your pads to a DTC70/60 f/r or Carbotech XP10/8 imo. Also with the slicks you'll need more camber, a lot more. (2-1/2+) One advantage to running street tires is I just leave the HP+ on for the summer and let them squeek instead of swapping back and forth to track pads and alignments. (and unless I'm going to NJ, just drive to the track)

For the jack I have the red one from Northern tool (dual piston) and I've had good luck with it over the last couple years. It looks the same as the tire-rack one but you can never be sure! -Dan

bselltiz

Hi Dan,
Good point about the brake and camber setup with the slicks. I do want to drive on the street too with this car and tending to be the lazy bastard that I am it might not be worth all of the trouble to run the slicks and then have to switch everything over after each event.

fred_S

Just out of curiosity, not trying to hijack the thread. I used HP+ pads for a whole weekend on the track and ever since then on the street. It seems like they are eating away my rotor quickly, is that normal.

Fred

Corvee

Based on my experience - the HP+ will wear your rotors more than street pads but less than the DTC60/70's or the Carbotech XP 10/8's. I found Cobalt's to wear less than the Hawks or Carbotech's.The Cobalts are pricey, but last longer and cheaper than replacing your rotors with the pads, when I tried the others mentioned.

Corvee

You are most welcome. A very true statement "I did not find them unpredictable, or should I say too gripy until it was too late". Not trying to dis- the Hoosiers at all. However, for where I assume you are on the learning curve - take your time and learn the car first. Start with a good set of DOT street tires - Michelins, (even the Goodyear F1's) or Invos . For $1250 out the door at Discount Tire - you can't beat the NT05's. The more you track the car, the greater need to stretch your budget. Tires, brakes, and fluids are a given expenditure that adds up -quickly!

Bill Dearborn

Don't go overboard spending money until you find out whether you like it or not. When spending money consider how easy something will sell if you want to get rid of it. If you get a set of track wheels buy them with the that and future use in mind. Get a size that will allow you to move to popular size (18 inch) R compound tires front and rear but start out with street tires on them. As a novice you will not be pushing the street tires that hard for the first few schools. The stock brakes will do for your first school. You should be able to get at least two track days out of them if you have fairly new pads. If you want something a little more aggressive go with Hawk HP+. Bleed the brake fluid before the event with any of the better fluids although you don't have to go hog wild here yet either. Something with a high dry boiling point will be sufficient. Probably cheapest and easiest to find will be Ford Super Duty fluid which has a dry boiling point of 500 degrees F, Wilwood 570 runs around $9 per 12 oz container.

Depending on the percentage of oil life left you may want to change the oil but there isn't any real need to run out and change the coolant, diff or tranny fluid for the first HPDE. You just will not be stressing the car that hard. As a novice you have a lot to learn and it takes some time to learn it. You will be learning the LINE, where the flaggers are, how to let somebody pass, how to pass somebody, where to brake, how to brake, how to accelerate out of the turn, on track behavior. It will take 45 minutes of classroom time just to get the first bits of info into your head, then the instructor will work with you for the first session just getting you used to the track and what the real line looks like and why you need to be all the way to the left and then all the way to the right, asking you to point out the flag stations and telling you to look way ahead of the car and not at the track 100 ft in front of you. You can't do anything about stuff that is within 100 ft since you and the car can't react fast enough. On a track like Watkins Glen there are 11 turns with 4 critical points in each of them. Brake point, turn in point, apex and track out. That means you are learning several facts about each of the 44 points around the track. Your speed affects all of them so there is some variability. Once you demonstrate you can hit the marks with some consistency you probably won't hear a reduction in the constant coaching coming from the instructor. Once I know a student can get around the track with some degree of competence I sit back and watch to see how they do. Usually, they remember some things and not others. I point the areas out and then we start working on those. If you are doing 20 minute sessions it will go by so fast you will have covered only a small amount of the things that need to be covered so some of that stuff gets covered after the session or in the next. After 4 sessions on day 1 you should have some hint of what is going on by day 2 and can run faster but it will take some time before you can run at a speed that will stress the car more than it stresses you. Novices at the Glen invariably will hit the brakes when heading toward Turn 2 at 70 to 80 mph but as the saying goes there is no car in the world that is so powerful that it can't be driven wide open from the exit of turn 1 all the way through turns 2, 3, 4 and to the end of the back straight. It just takes the gonads to do it. Most of the guys I know are running it wide open or close to wide open while running the apex of turn 2 at over 100 mph. A few years ago I watched a video of Earnhardt Jr running the esses in a cup car and his telemetry indicated he was at 127 in 2. A cup car can't turn as well as a good sports car so basically you have a pro driver with an 800 HP engine in a car that handles like a pig running the corner flat out. Students that go for instructor rides during the instructor sessions invariably say "Wow, I thought I was fast."

At the end of the two days you will be exhausted and maybe thrilled. If you like driving like this you then are on the precipice of a very steep hill that costs more money the further you let yourself slide down it. The adrenaline high is fantastic and even a base Corvette will make you feel like a God.

Bill

AU N EGL

Fresh DOT 4 brake fluid for each event
Good brake pads HP+ or some of the Carbotech race pads. XP10 XP08

Brake cooling ducts

then nothing but seat time

the stock caliper is Great with Race pads, fresh brake fluid and big wide front tires. Dont worry about going deep into brake zones, just get set time and more seat time.

the C5Z06 brakes will eat though a set of brake pads in Two weekends if that with aggressive braking. So not really worth the expense

Adam@Amp'dAutosport.com

For street tires I would run Carbotech Xp10 front and Carbotech XP8 rear. I will be happy to help you. Contact me at 216-780-8825. Front
$206 and Rear $161 less 7% forum discount I also recomend the pre-bed option for an additional $40.00. I would also switch to Castrol SRF brake fluid and SS lines.

When Carbotech unleashed the XP10™ to the general public, and it was an instant success, gathering multiple regional, divisional, and national championships. The XP10™ is a very high initial bite friction material, with a coefficient of friction and rotor friendliness unmatched in the industry. Fade resistance is in excess of 1650ฐF. Due to the high level of friction and bite, this material is recommended for cars weighing around 2,000lbs or more, not including formula cars and cars with brake bias bars weighing less than 2,000lbs. This is the preferred compound for the front of Spec Miata racers, SSC,SSB, T3, SRF, ITS, ITE, H1,H2, H3, H4, 944 Cup, ST, GS, Factory Five Cobra’s and many more Grand-Am/ALMS/SCCA/NASA classes. XP10™ is also ideal for advanced/instructor level HPDE drivers. XP10™ still maintains the highly praised release and excellent modulation, rotor friendliness, and 100% non-corrosive dust that have made all Carbotech compounds so successful. XP10™ is not recommended as a daily-driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise.

A high torque brake compound with a wide operating temperature range (200ฐF-1350ฐF+). Carbotech XP8™ is the first of our racing compounds. Outstanding initial bite at race temperatures, high coefficient of friction, excellent modulation and release characteristics. Extremely high fade resistance, very rotor friendly with 100% non-corrosive dust. Excellent as a front brake pad for lighter ITA, ITB, ITC, SRF, H4, H5, and other cars that weigh less than 2,400lbs. Perfect for novice, intermediate and advanced track day (HPDE) use with any tire, and can still be driven safely to and from the track. There are several vehicles that use XP8™ on the street, autocross, and at track day (HPDE) events. Carbotech does NOT recommended XP8™ as a daily driven street pad due to elevated levels of dust and noise. XP8™ is also a great rear brake pad for almost any race car (Spec Miata-T1/T2/CMC). XP8™ is a great compound on the front & rear of most open wheel and sports racers.

bselltiz

Thanks for all of the feedback.
Just to clarify (not ego driven I promise), I have a solid 10 years of club racing experience on the bikes so I am very comfortable on the track. I have a few days experience in cars and plan on staying with this for the foreseeable future, in fact track time was the main reason I bought the car. This has all been excellent advice and it is always good to see that people are willing to help. That being said I have another question.
I might try to do Limerock on Monday and won't have time to do much so it is just gonna be pads, fluid and lines for now. Do you guys think the Z51 rotors with 40k on them will hold up for the day with a set of HP+ or XP10 pads? I would hate to warp them and not be able to get a full day in.

wtknght1

If this is a 2008 LS3, do not run this car on track without a dry sump system (if you plan on using anything other than the stock tires). The LS3 has major oiling problems which is why they put a dry sump system on the 2010 model (Grand Sport) for those who want to track the car.

You can't beat those Carbotechs and I love the XP12 on front and XP10s on rear.

bselltiz

What am I looking at to convert this thing to a dry sump system?

Scooter70

Carbotech pads are fussy about rotors. If you've been running any metallic pads on the rotors, you will need to put new rotors on the car in order to run Carbotech's pads. This is because the rotor surface already has material transfer from the metallic pads and the Carbotech pads cannot (will not?) transfer properly unless you have "virgin" rotor surfaces. This means that you either need a) A dedicated set of rotors for the track or b) Carbotech's street pads so that you don't contaminate the rotors between track days.

All that said, Z51 rotors are cross-drilled, correct? If so, you will want to switch to a blank rotor for the track.

wtknght1

About $7K give or take a little bit. I'm using Gary Armstrong ARE 3 stage system approved for T1 and it works well. Just make sure all the little screws on the scavenge pump pulley are tight and you check them often!!! The Phoenix guys did mine and do a very good job! Call Joe Aquilante.

And the response Scooter 70 gave about the Carbotech pads is incorrect. Even when I was testing the original Panther compound for Larry Narcus back in the late 90s, the thing I loved about the pads is that I could switch back and forth between any type pad and not lose any braking ability or consistency. The Puskar's have taken the pads even further and I'm normally one of their first test drivers. It's an awesome product and I've never been disappointed!!!!

Scooter70

Well it seems that Danny disagrees with you. The following is part of an e-mail exchange between he and I a few years back when I was looking for pads for my GTO.

If you don't believe that, take a look at the Carbotech FAQ at http://ctbrakes.com/faqs.asp#bedding2

Maybe "absolutely critical" means something else to you.

travisnd

Chris as all the experience in the world blowing up LS3s and he's right that you'll need a drysump if you intend to really flog the car on race tires. That said, I can't imagine it being an issue your first few HPDEs.

If you've got that much on track experience you'll probably pick up speed in the car quickly.

I would just keep an eye on your oil pressure and go from there. It stinks that GM screwed up the LS2 and LS3 blocks.... nobody can pinpoint what they changed in the oiling system, but when they were initially being raced so many were blowing up that T1 had to allow dry sumps.

LS6s will run for years and years just a quart over full.... if you really want insurance an Accusump will knock that out. No need for a $$$$$ dry-sump setup.

Good luck!

wtknght1

He's talking about the initial pedal application only. Once you go into 3 or 4 hard braking zones, the Carbotechs "mate" up to the rotors perfectly and you'll never know the difference. Trust me man, I've raced these pads for the better part of 10 years and have gone back and forth testing between Hawks, Cobalts, and all sorts of XP compounds with no issues at all. Even when I was running my old C5 on the streets too, there were no issues going from stock vette pads back to the XPs for the actual race event(s).

KNSBrakes

I have a set of C6 Z06 replica wheels for track use if you are interested.

Haven't posted them yet. If you want nice street wheels - get track wheels - they take a horrendous beating on track. Unless you just love cleaning tons of brake dust.



And...your stock brakes will stop the car - and very well - even w/ Hoosiers. But they will take a good bit of maintenance once you start getting into them hard w/ some tire on the car.